Admin's Note: The thread you're about to read is FUD.

In short, FUD is Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. As it relates to online communities, message boards and digital video technology, FUD is at its core nothing but a poorly disguised trolling attempt at creating a platform war. Platform wars, like personal flames, are strictly verboten here at DV Info Net, and that's fairly common knowledge among first-time vistors and new members. Knowing that, the FUD caster spreads misinformation and twists facts, and then makes an appeal based on these distortions. As an example, demonstrated below is what I like to call "The Myth of the Four-Minute Flash Card."

The FUD caster selects obsolete data -- in this case, last year's 4GB P2 card holds 4 min. 30 sec. of DVCPro HD -- and presents it as current data, implying not only that it's unusable but also that this is somehow the maximum recording capacity that you're stuck with for P2 memory. This FUD is of course completely false. The 4GB P2 card holds up to 18 minutes of DVCPro video, which a completely workable amount of recording time. More importantly, the 4GB card is the *lowest* P2 card for DVCPro HD recording, in other words, you can certainly get a larger capacity P2 card. An appropriate analogy here would be akin to pointing out the low-capacity memory card that's often bundled with a new digital still camera... it's the freebie card; the starter card. The FUD caster says, "four pictures! is this all the camera can do for $1000?" as if you're stuck with that limitation.

The FUD caster continues to select obsolete data -- outdated pricing -- and repeatedly hammers away at presenting it as current information: "who needs these 4 mins for thousands dollars?" Resisting all civilized suggestions of re-thinking these skewed arguments, the FUD caster finally goes overboard: "Because camcorders under $2000 shoots really bad." By that time, the DV Info Net FUD detector system has been triggered, and the thread is saved by a healthy dose of reality. So at least there's a happy ending.

For more information about FUD, be sure to read The Newbie's Guide to Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (http://www.attrition.org/~jericho/works/security/fud.html). Thanks,

Chris Hurd
San Marcos, TX

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David Valencic wrote...

Name ONE person who will PAY for a 16gb P2 card...besides CNN and other newsgathering sources. NO PROSUMER will buy them.

Give me a 2.5" 100gb 5400rpm hard drive ghetto-rigged to the back of a HDX100....I don't care how noisy it is or how much battery it uses...if I can just toss a regular laptop drive in there and record away, i'll be happy.

Maybe panasonic will be extra nice and give uncompressed editors the ability to record strait to a Discreet Stone disk array?

Name ONE person who will PAY for a 16gb P2 card...besides CNN and other newsgathering sources. NO PROSUMER will buy them.

Give me a 2.5" 100gb 5400rpm hard drive ghetto-rigged to the back of a HDX100....I don't care how noisy it is or how much battery it uses...if I can just toss a regular laptop drive in there and record away, i'll be happy.
100% agree. That's really weird idea to use some 4-10 minutes cards which cost thousands of dollars in camcorder which will cost under $10000...

But that's the current price of cards. The memory will rapidly drop through the floor in pricing, just as it has done for computers and for digital cameras.

Graeme

<<<-- Originally posted by Graeme Nattress : But that's the current price of cards. The memory will rapidly drop through the floor in pricing, just as it has done for computers and for digital cameras.
If 4-10 minutes card costs $4000 now, I don't think it will cost $500 in a year...

Who needs these 4 mins for thousands dollars?

Hard drives are the best route to go.... 100gb is only $149 at CompUSA right now. Have a firewire port on the back and just have it mount like a normal drive.

I think it is very unlikey that the camera can just mount any Firewire drive. Although this would be sweet... imagine using the iPod to store the footage. BUT, there should be no need to tag a brick along outside the camera. A hard disk might be able to work in the P2 slot, which is really a PC-card interface. Right now hard disks housed in PC-cards are not as cheap as Firewire drives, but that's because they are just coming out. There is a 5GB Toshiba card already available at B&H for les than $200 that can probably handle the bandwidth: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=316612&is=REG

And there is a new one just in. At the time of this post it seems to be mislabeled at B&H as 40MB but of course the +$1000 price tag suggests it's actually 40GB: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=145689&is=REG. I have not been able to confirm this at the Fujifilm website.

"If 4-10 minutes card costs $4000 now, I don't think it will cost $500 in a year..."

Actually, a 4gb card, which will allow for roughly 20 minutes of DVCPro, 10 minutes of DVCPro 50, and 5 minutes of DVCPro HD, doesn't cost $4000. It costs around $2100.
The 2GB cards cost around $1000.


The cost of compact flash is dropping significantly.
SanDisk just announced a 1gb card for $100.


From a CNET News article: (http://news.com.com/SanDisk+queues+up+1GB+mini+memory+card+for+100/2100-1041_3-5575840.html?tag=st.rc.targ_mb)
"The 1GB mini SD card will cost roughly 10 cents per megabyte"

"the average selling price of flash memory is likely to fall to 5 cents per megabyte by the end of this year and continue to drop so that by 2009, it will be less than a penny"


This means that Panasonic could make a 4gb card using a little over $400 in parts by the end of the year. They could sell this for $800-$1000 easily.

By the end of next year, the prices could easily be half of that. It's safe to assume we'll see 1gb flash cards costing around $50 by the end of 2006 (according to the CNet article, we should see those prices by the end of 2005).

I wouldn't be surprised to see a 4gb P2 card at less than $500 by the end of 2006.

Now, this doesn't mean it's a great deal... but I wouldn't underestimate the price drops we might see.

Don't forget that P2 technology is tied to flash memory, and those prices are dropping like a free fall right now.

Actually, a 4gb card, which will allow for roughly 20 minutes of DVCPro, 10 minutes of DVCPro 50, and 5 minutes of DVCPro HD, doesn't cost $4000. It costs around $2100.
The 2GB cards cost around $1000.
Oh, that's change everything. :)
I mean if I want to shoot 2 hours of video? I'll must but 40 cards for $80000? This cards is bad idea anyway.

I will not buy this camcorder if it will shoot only to these 4 mins cards. HDD is the best idea (or tapes).

The cost of compact flash is dropping significantly.
SanDisk just announced a 1gb card for $100.
Wow, it's a whole minute of HD video! :)

<< Don't forget that P2 technology is tied to flash memory, and those prices are dropping like a free fall right now. >>

Thanks, Luis -- that's a very concise, accurate and intelligent way to describe it. The price of P2 media is directly related to the SD cards that make up the array, and SD card prices are going lower every day. P2 may not *yet* be ideal for event videography (although that time is coming quickly), it *is* ideal for news gathering, corporate & industrial, and filmmaking, where the takes are always short relative to event videography.

> we'll see 1gb flash cards costing around $50
> by the end of 2006

PC-card hard disks are already cheaper than that.

It just means that this P2 cam may not be ideal for documentary stuff. But for narrative it will be fine - people are used to having an 11 minute reel before a change...

I agree completely. P2 will suit some types of production right now, but not others until the SD media becomes fairly inexpensive.

The subject of P2 is being discussed in this other thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?threadid=39455&goto=newpost

Ignacio has an excellent point; it seems we have drifted off-topic here. Please check the forum index for this board and let's all please make sure that we're posting under the appropriate subject. As new as this entire section is, it's very easy to get lost as we tend to stray around a bit in circles. I'm probably the most guilty of this as anyone else here.

<<<-- Originally posted by Alexey Morvin : If 4-10 minutes card costs $4000 now, I don't think it will cost $500 in a year...

Who needs these 4 mins for thousands dollars? -->>>

Not sure where you got the price quote , but you are way, way off. The 4 gig today costs what the 2 gig did last year. Memory is a sliding scale. Don't make up your minds on projection of inflated prices. I have two 32MB SD memory cards, one cost $129, the other cost $29.95. Try not to get weirded out on this. This is so minor to the pluses of the workflow.

Best,

jan

Thanks Jan,

It's a bit of an education process to get some folks to think clearly regarding SD media costs and where they're going. And that is, down. Quickly.

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Thanks Jan,

It's a bit of an education process to get some folks to think clearly regarding SD media costs and where they're going. And that is, down. Quickly. -->>>

And just one more pointer, it is not media, it is memory. ;-)

Huge, Huge difference.

Best,

Jan

D'oh!!

My face is red.

"Wow, it's a whole minute of HD video! :)"

Actually, it's at least 100,000 minutes of HD video, just not all at once.
:)

Seriously,
Jan brings up an important point, we're talking about memory, not media. You have to keep in mind we are out of the world of tape.

How much are you willing to pay for a CD-R disc?
How much are you willing to pay for 512 MB flash card?

I'm guessing you're willing to pay more for the flash card, even though it might not hold as much information,
because you can use it over and over.

How much would you be willing to pay for a mini-dv tape if it meant you never had to buy another tape?

Our mindset must change here, comparing P2 to Tape just doesn't make sense. Each one must be viewed in their context.

(sorry if I took the thread off topic)

ps.
remember when people were upset because DV cameras could only shoot an hour's worth of footage, and they were used to 2 hour 8mm and Hi8 tapes?

And then remember how happy they became when they no longer had to sit through those two excrutiating hours?

;-)

Now we're way off topic! I think think this thread is just about through. There's no reason to lock it, but at the length it is now, it's getting pretty hard to follow. Please consider joining one of the other current topics going on in this board, or create a new one... thanks,

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : D'oh!!

My face is red. -->>>

It is the easiest thing to say, because it is the most familar thing to do. I only chimed in, not to embarrass you, but to make the point. You really fed me the one liner and I had to take it. Thank you.

Best,

Jan

Seriously,
Jan brings up an important point, we're talking about memory, not media. You have to keep in mind we are out of the world of tape.

How much are you willing to pay for a CD-R disc?
How much are you willing to pay for 512 MB flash card?

I'm guessing you're willing to pay more for the flash card, even though it might not hold as much information,
because you can use it over and over.
It's not plus for me. I would like to have tape to keep RAW video for years... I never rewrite my miniDV tapes. :)

<<<-- Originally posted by Alexey Morvin : It's not plus for me. I would like to have tape to keep RAW video for years... I never rewrite my miniDV tapes. :) -->>>

I'ts digital, man. You can copy P2 content thousand times and still have "RAW" quality. Keeping video on HDD or Blue-ray disc for years is more safe than on tape, which can lose data in time.

<<<-- Originally posted by Alexey Morvin : It's not plus for me. I would like to have tape to keep RAW video for years... I never rewrite my miniDV tapes. :) -->>>

Alexey, it is not a question of whether you keep your footage for years, many people do that, it is a question of whther you keep all the bad shots too. If you save tape based recording you keep all the bad ones that you will never use along with the good ones, and when you are searching for the good ones you have to wade through the bad ones.

A Smart Archive is what comes out of a P2 workflow. The good ones saved in a domain that is easy to access. You could putit back to tape and save your self some tape, but that isn't ideal because if you wanted to reuse some of it, you have to redigitize. Save it on a Disk of DLT or some such thing and boom you are then, transfer data, and you are editing.

Not ever having to waste your time digitizing, this is part of the P2 workflow, mount the drive, edit.

Hope that helps,

Jan

I'ts digital, man. You can copy P2 content thousand times and still have "RAW" quality. Keeping video on HDD or Blue-ray disc for years is more safe than on tape, which can lose data in time.
LOL
miniDV is very digital. ;)

Do you think you can keep RAW video on HDD? I'm not sure.
Largest HDD now is 400 Gb. It's not very much for HDV.

Alexey, it is not a question of whether you keep your footage for years, many people do that, it is a question of whther you keep all the bad shots too. If you save tape based recording you keep all the bad ones that you will never use along with the good ones, and when you are searching for the good ones you have to wade through the bad ones.

A Smart Archive is what comes out of a P2 workflow. The good ones saved in a domain that is easy to access. You could putit back to tape and save your self some tape, but that isn't ideal because if you wanted to reuse some of it, you have to redigitize. Save it on a Disk of DLT or some such thing and boom you are then, transfer data, and you are editing.

Not ever having to waste your time digitizing, this is part of the P2 workflow, mount the drive, edit.
Ok. But I still think there is no better thing for HD recording than tape now.

I never had problems with editing miniDV tapes.

Small 100Gb HDDs are also good thing. But 4 mins flash cards... It's not for me. I will not buy this. I've already said why...

Not ever having to waste your time digitizing, this is part of the P2 workflow

Yes. Instead you waste time swapping cards, copying to hard drives, swapping hard drives, backing up hard drives so you don't lose all your master footage on a head crash etc. Not really a win, IMHO.

I can see there being a real benefit for news shows where you can plug the P2 card directly into your edit machine and have near-instant access to all footage shot, but the extra hassle seems more than it's worth for drama and documentary work.

Personally, other than news shows, the whole P2 thing seems like a solution in search of a problem.

I'm thinking optical disks will be still used for long term data storage, and you'll still have tape. This will no doubt all happen in the background while you're editing the footage copied from the P2 card to your hard drive. The P2 workflow is all about using the best device for the job. Tape is useless for modern editing. It's slow, clumbersome etc. Dropouts are a problem. Solid state memory would seem ideal for aquisition, as hard drives are for editing, and optical discs would seem great for long term storage, as is tape.

Graeme

<< the extra hassle seems more than it's worth for drama and documentary work. >>

I don't see it that way. No matter how fast your crew is, there's always going to be downtime between set-ups. In other words, a built-in block of time to do whatever you want with what you've just shot. P2 is perfect for a filmmaking environment, but then I've already said that.

P2 is perfect for a filmmaking environment,

Well, we'll just have to disagree on that. Maybe that's true for George Lucas (AFAIR he records direct to RAID from his HD cams because it's the only way to handle uncompressed HD), but for the kind of movie-makers a $10k HD camera is aimed at, I think it's unlikely.

Tape is useless for modern editing. It's slow, clumbersome etc. Dropouts are a problem.

But it's also cheap, it's pretty robust (if a DV tape can survive falling from Mach 25 at 200,000 feet and still mostly be readable, it can survive most things that would happen in an editing room), and you can stick it on a shelf for years and probably still read the data off it. That's not true of hard disks, or Flash RAM.

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : << P2 is perfect for a filmmaking environment, -->>>

I also have to disagree, I don't own a laptop, I don't want to own a laptop.. period.. So what am I going to do on those long trips when I shoot documentaries for television? Use the extra tool they sell me, 60gig hdd? Well, let's see, I used about 7 tapes last time I went, what about 420min. That's 91 gig DV material (25mbps) So at 100mbps I'd need 315 gigabyte of space. I would need to buy 6 of them hardrives panasonic is about to offer. Not to mention I have to carry them around with me all the time.

Take this for an example,
You are alone and collecting footage for your documentary, You see something spectacular, like with most animal encounters or things of that nature. You have to be fast.. No time for that additional tripod, You start shooting, after 4 minutes your P2 cards is out, it starts recording on the other card, you need to pop the card out, pull out the hardrive from the backpack, put the card into the hardrive and dump the material, all of this without taking your focus of what's in your viewfinder or adding additional camera shake. I would say that's impossible..

They need to offer atleast 60-100gig P2 cards for this to be a good alternative to tape!

> Solid state memory would seem ideal for aquisition,
> as hard drives are for editing, and optical discs would
> seem great for long term storage, as is tape.

I see your point Graeme. But don't you think it could be a good idea to skip solid state and go direct to the hard disk, which is almost as reliable and less expensive?

Also, have you read Sony's technical papers on XDCAM? They make a good point about going optical for both aquisition AND archiving.

> They need to offer atleast 60-100gig P2 cards for this to
> be a good alternative to tape!

Andreas, look around the 'net. Hitachi makes 80GB hard disks that can fit inside a PC-card, and 5GB PC-cards are already widely available. This is why I am hoping that Panasonic will open up the architecture of the P2 slot so we can pop hard disks in there.

Read back in this same thread or check this other thread for more details on the P2 issue: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?threadid=39455&goto=newpost

Andreas,

<< You are alone and collecting footage... you need to pop the card out, pull out the hardrive from the backpack, put the card into the hardrive and dump the material, all of this without taking your focus of what's in your viewfinder or adding additional camera shake. I would say that's impossible. >>

Panasonic is also coming out with a P2 WLAN card, so you could download video wirelessly without ever touching the camera. Anything is possible these days!

Panasonic is also coming out with a P2 WLAN card, so you could download video wirelessly without ever touching the camera. Anything is possible these days!
This is great if you shoot at studio or something.
And what about beach (for example)? People must take notebook with camcorder? Notebook with just 80-100 Gb HDD is not better than tape or small 80-100 Gb HDD...

This is really bad idea too...

Oh, I don't believe all manufacturers make really bad first HDV camcorders. JVC made awful one-CCD camcorder which shoot to MPEG2. Sony made camcorder shooting to MPEG2 with interlace...

If Panasonic will make perfect camcorder (with good storage - tape or HDDs), I think it will be very popular. It has all I (and almost all other people) need:
progressive shooting, 3 CCDs, shooting NOT to MPEG2...

> Panasonic is also coming out with a P2 WLAN card, so you
> could download video wirelessly without ever touching the
> camera. Anything is possible these days!

Ahhhhh that is soooo sweet. I had actually mentioned some time ago that this might be possible but didn't expect Panasonic to offer it. Is there any link available, press release, anything with more info on that card?

This would mean we can carry around a laptop with a wireless card and a huge hard disk and thus have virtually infinite recording time! It's not as one-man-shoot as a hard disk for the P2 card, but it's the next best thing. Very promising!

I wonder what wireless technology is used. The 54Mbps version of 802.11 would not be enough for a full 100 Mbps DVCPROHD stream, and due to the inherent problems of wireless shared spectrum technology, it might not even be good enough for DVCPRO50. However, it might be just enough for DVCPROHD in 24p mode, if redundant information is not transmitted.

Alexey

<< And what about beach (for example)? People must take notebook with camcorder? >>

We're not talking about a consumer camcorder here. We're talking about professional shoots and serious independent filmmaking. Among all of the other various gear that requires, adding a laptop and an external storage drive to the equipment list is not going to be an issue for the majority of these types of applications.


<< Oh, I don't believe all manufacturers make really bad first HDV camcorders. >>

This isn't an HDV discussion. This is a DVCPro HD / P2 discussion. There's a significant difference.

<< Sony made camcorder shooting to MPEG2 with interlace... >>

And your point is? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The forthcoming Panasonic camcorder that is being discussed in this forum is NOT the first camera in the P2 format, if that's what you're trying to get at.

Ignacio

<< I wonder what wireless technology is used. >>

I'm not sure. Saw it referenced at http://www.yenra.com/p2/.

This would mean we can carry around a laptop with a wireless card and a huge hard disk and thus have virtually infinite recording time! It's not as one-man-shoot as a hard disk for the P2 card, but it's the next best thing. Very promising!
Few questions:
1. Do you know how much time laptop can power from battery? 3-8 hours WITH POWER SAFE, not any more. Power safe will not allow you to use full speed of computer...

2. 100 Gb is maximum. Big 3.5'' external HDDs will not working from batteries. If it will, laptop will take much more power.

3. Do you think it's comfortable? I don't think so. I went to friends to shoot birthday and I must take camcorder, laptop and few HDDs...

PS: Wireless (and shooting directly to computer with cable) is only good if you shoot in video-studio.

We're not talking about a consumer camcorder here. We're talking about professional shoots and serious independent filmmaking. Among all of the other various gear that requires, adding a laptop and an external storage drive to the equipment list is not going to be an issue for the majority of these types of applications.
If you make so serious films - you should buy Pro camcorders. $50000-$100000. :)

And your point is? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The forthcoming Panasonic camcorder that is being discussed in this forum is NOT the first camera in the P2 format, if that's what you're trying to get at.
I'm trying to say that Panasonic can make ideal HD camcorder if they just use 100 Mbps tape or big HDDs. Not 4 mins flash cards and not "video-to-laptop" thing.

Alexey, I have been on so many film shoots --and even SD video shoots-- where there are lights, generators and all kinds of stuff being carried around... that I think an AC-powered laptop or even a minitower desktop, --which coul easily fit under the video-assist monitor-- is not much of a pain at all.

You can't have it all... I mean sure, Andreas would like to get a camera with 400GB of storage built-in., but that's just not going to happen yet. He is going to have to carry around a laptop or find a way to use FireStore-like or PC-card hard disks.

Alexey

<< 1. Do you know how much time laptop can power from battery? >>

In a professional and properly managed production environment, battery power on location is never an issue for experienced shooters.

<< 2. 100 Gb is maximum. Big 3.5'' external HDDs will not working from batteries. If it will, laptop will take much more power. >>

Okay, once again! In a professional and properly managed production environment, battery power on location is never an issue for experienced shooters.

<< 3. Do you think it's comfortable? I don't think so. I went to friends to shoot birthday and I must take camcorder, laptop and few HDDs... >>

This is not a consumer camcorder and I don't think anyone is going to use it to shoot a consumer application friend's birthday. Even so, how much recording time would you really need for that -- not much. I think the tolerance threshold for watching birthday parties on video is an international standard of about 15 minutes maximum.

<< PS: Wireless (and shooting directly to computer with cable) is only good if you shoot in video-studio. >>

Sorry, incorrect. Both instances (wireless and direct cable) can be employed in the field, easily.

<< If you make so serious films - you should buy Pro camcorders. $50000-$100000. :) >>

This is a professional camcorder, and the target price is below $10,000. Please get into the spirit of the discussion here, or move on to some other category. We cover a wide variety of formats here at DV Info Net. Thanks,

This is not a consumer camcorder and I don't think anyone is going to use it to shoot a consumer application friend's birthday. Even so, how much recording time would you really need for that -- not much. I think the tolerance threshold for watching birthday parties on video is an international standard of about 15 minutes maximum.
I know many people who bought $5000 camcorders to shoot birthdays, kids, vacations etc. Because camcorders under $2000 shoots really bad.

Guys, are you working for Panasonic or something? I can't understand this love to extra problems (laptops, 4 mins flash cards...).

<<<-- Originally posted by Andreas Fernbrant : <<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : << P2 is perfect for a filmmaking environment, -->>>

Take this for an example,
You are alone and collecting footage for your documentary, You see something spectacular, like with most animal encounters or things of that nature. You have to be fast.. No time for that additional tripod, You start shooting, after 4 minutes your P2 cards is out, it starts recording on the other card, you need to pop the card out, pull out the hardrive from the backpack, put the card into the hardrive and dump the material, all of this without taking your focus of what's in your viewfinder or adding additional camera shake. I would say that's impossible..

They need to offer atleast 60-100gig P2 cards for this to be a good alternative to tape! -->>>

Documentary wildlife shooting, is nothing like a typical "film" shoot. Documentary shooting of any type is different from almost any kind shoot due to the massive amount of footage typically shot. Obviously, neither P2 or even large HDD would be good for this style of shooting. We could all make up scenarios, though, where any format would be less than ideal if our only goal of the discussion was to disprove its viability.

On a typical film shoot or in studio, where power is not an issue, equipment is plentiful, good preproduction work has been done, and the DP has one or more assisstants, P2 would work fine.

Just last week "Sesame Street" had a shoot in my local mall. They were shooting onto some non-tape format. In between setups, the director walked over to a man on a laptop sitting next to the sound table. It was the project's editor, and he and the director were cutting together the program as they shot it. The workflow looked very natural and simple.

Wouldn't it be fantastic fun if this format helped to move the editors on set?

Simple solution if you are shooting a doc:

You can always use a different camera.

BUT, someone will shoot a doc with this cam, because they'll have multiple cards and a laptop handy. Which will become more and more commonplace on a shoot as time goes on.

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here. First off, let me also thank Jan for her constant support and input. I've been in a similar situation on a much smaller scale, and didn't do half the job she's doing. Also, she's not only doing it here, but a couple of other professional sites I regular. Again, my hat's off to you. This is one of the things that's starting seperate Panny from Sony for me. Everything I own, is Sony right now. But, that is going to change in the very near future. On the other hand, it seems that certain points are being presented when it suits that point of view. Sometimes people are refering to this system as the next thing for Indie and Documentary filmmaking at a low budget, which I hope it is. Then when people make points regarding power needs and other field needs, some make points regarding generators and such, so that won't be a problem. I've worked my share of low budget field jobs, and even with portable generators, power was always in demand. It just seems that people are bouncing around and adding info to support their position. I hope I'm making sense. I don't think the situation is as B&W as it sometimes is being presented. On the other side: The reality of the situation is that I'm excited about the camera. If I wasn't, I wouldn't even talk about it. I worked with the Sony HDV a couple of times and was not impressed. So, I don't talk about it. The one thing that's won me over with Panasonic, aside from the DVX100, is that they seem to be listening to costumers. Sony seems to be like we're Sony, so you'll take what we give you. That's not an option anymore. Thanks Panasonic.

Ugh, you guys are making me sick! Here are some facts:

- Memory prices are falling drastically, just give it some time.

- The camera most likely won't be released until a few months or so after NAB2005. This supports the above fact.

- Laptop shooting isn't necessary, Panasonic has the external HDD option for P2 card layoff. Also, we know little about this device as well. Perhaps we can swap out the HDD with another one instead of buying more of the same device?

- If using a laptop, most instances will call for an extra battery and/or extra HDD at most. If shooting indoors, AC power can be used to alleviate shooting length worries.

- 4 minutes. That's all we've got for DVCPROHD recording for awhile and that's all that we need for single takes in most instances. Quit complaining and just have your talent practice more! >=D Lazies! Shoot Clint Eastwood-style, it's just so professional.

- The camera doesn't shoot just DVCPROHD, it shoots DVCPRO25 and DVCPRO50 (whether it can shoot 24p for all modes or not is still up in the air if I'm not mistaken).

- Documentary people aren't who this camera's primarily for, as of yet, this camera, right now, is meant for indie filmmakers. If need be, documentarists that need longer shooting times can shoot the DVCPRO modes instead of DVCPROHD. Or use another camera altogether! >=D

- The price hasn't been officially announced yet, just the figure that Panasonic is aiming for. Regardless of the camera price, yes, an investment will need to be made towards upgrading for HD. Software and hardware most likely need to be upgraded and ATM, only AVID and FCP support DVCPROHD (yet again, if I'm not mistaken). So for all those people spouting, "Oh this thing's gonna be too expensive, I may as well just jump the gun and buy a $20,000 procamera!" or "Shoot, I'll just buy a (insert prosumer camera here) instead!", just be quiet, you don't know how much it's going to cost. None of us do. Wait until we get an exact price at NAB2005.


So, everyone just quit griping and wait and see. Maybe someone can try to come up with another question about this camera for another thread? So far we've only got one page of thread going, doesn't anyone have any other questions?

Alexey Morvin:

<< Guys, are you working for Panasonic or something? >>

No more so than you're working against them.

There is only one person actively participating in this forum who works for Panasonic, and she is Jan Crittenden. She is clearly identified as "Panasonic Broadcast" in the user title below here name. We welcome her presence here warmly, just as we do for any other manufacturer's representatives who care to post here at DV Info Net.

Speaking only for myself, but I'm sure this goes for most everyone else here, I am keenly interested in new digital video technolgies and formats of all kinds, including P2 as well as HDV. And just like all the other discussion boards I have here at DV Info Net, I set up this one so that I can interact with other interested folks and learn as much as I can about it.

<< I can't understand this love to extra problems (laptops, 4 mins flash cards...) >>

Understanding P2 requires some degree of forward thinking. These are solutions, not problems. And we're not talking about four minutes on a flash card; we're talking about hours worth of HD recording on a flash card array.

Your posts so far are highly suspicious in that they are attempting to cast F.U.D. (fear, uncertainty and doubt). This is contrary to the way we operate around here and is highly detrimental to the learning process. Please think about that very carefully. Thanks,

For Ignacio Rodriguez, Jesse Bekas, Michael Struthers, Claude Isbell and Jack Felis: thanks a bunch for your excellent input at the tail end of this thread, guys. Your thoughtful viewpoints were right on target and have made me feel a lot less alone! For awhile it seemed like I was kind of single-handed there.

Jack,

<< Maybe someone can try to come up with another question about this camera for another thread? >>

Thanks, this is the same thing I was trying to say about fifteen or twenty posts back!

I really think this thread is done for; please folks, take Jack's advice (and mine) and steer any further discussion to a *new* topic. Thanks in advance,

BUT, someone will shoot a doc with this cam, because they'll have multiple cards and a laptop handy. Which will become more and more commonplace on a shoot as time goes on.
And don't forget, Panasonic has already announced that they're going to be building a tiny portable hard disk P2 card reader device, which will be like a little FireStore, but instead of needing to be cabled to the camera you just put a card in and it sucks the data off it and copies it to the hard disk. So for the cost of a little 60gb hard disk about 3" x 4" or so, you can have hours of storage.

Shoot to the cards. When they're full, pop 'em in the disk reader and it quaffs 'em at a rate of about 4x realtime or something. Then continue shooting.

Is this really a big deal here? Seems like a nearly *ideal* workflow. Instant acquisition, instant editing, ability to delete/manage clips on the card right away, ability to store 'em on the hard disk for longer-form recording... you don't *need* a laptop or anything like that, you can just use this P2 card reader disk drive thing for that, and it's no more inconvenient than using a FireStore (one of the hottest accessories for tape-based cameras), and in some ways it's even more convenient (in that the P2 card reader drive doesn't need to be tethered to the camera by a fragile firewire cable!)

Howdy from Texas,

And there you have it... an excersize in F.U.D. (fear, uncertainty & doubt), and how to defeat it, with an excellent closing statement from Barry Green.

This thread was a malignant, overgrown cancerous tumor which has been surgically excized from Kurth Brouseman's original Panasonic AJ-HDX100 topic. It's closed because there's really nothing that needs to be added to it. In short, we don't do F.U.D. at DV Info Net. Thanks,