View Full Version : Image Quality in SD
March 19th, 2005, 12:08 PM
I've had an XL1S for a couple years now and am doing a lot of research and am looking into other high end cameras. I'm looking into cameras like the XL2, the GY-DV5100U, and the HVR-Z1U. I capture and edit in FCP and After Effects.
Now I'm wondering if I should wait for the GY-HD100 cause it looks like something pretty big, and being under the $10 000 mark. It looks that it's gonna have all the proffesional features as the XL2 does and the GY-DV5100U. Except it'll be 1/3 instead of 1/2 like the GY-DV5100U is.
For the near future I don't see myself editing and outputting in HD format because most people I know don't even have HD TVs and I probably wouldn't be showing it on HD either. But, would there be a way to record in HD and capture it onto FCP normally and edit it as you would anything else? Or would you record in the 480p mode for that, and would the image quality still be considerably better than an XL2 because of the 1.1 megapixel count over the 410 000 active pixels on the XL2?
March 19th, 2005, 03:06 PM
We don't know whether the JVC will allow on-the-fly downsampling to SD or not, as that info hasn't been released yet. However, the Z1 does allow it, so it's certainly possible.
While you're shopping for cameras, since you're an FCP user keep in mind that Panasonic will have an HD camera announced at NAB, and it records in DVCPRO-HD, a format which is already natively supported by FCP-HD. So you could use it in DV, DVCPRO-50, or DVCPRO-HD mode and all can be directly edited.
FCP should have full integration for HDV editing announced at NAB (hopefully). Whether it'll support JVC's extension to HDV (to accomodate 24p) is something that's not known yet.
In any case, if you don't *need* a camera immediately, I'd definitely advise to wait. When you're making a $5,000 to $10,000 purchase, you want to know what all your options are.
March 19th, 2005, 05:55 PM
Thanks for the reply, it really helped out a lot. And ya, I agree on the waiting part, so that's what I'm gonna do.
March 30th, 2005, 02:57 PM
anyone know typical JVC release patterns? Will these be out and available end of April or will I have to wait a month or more?
I have a project using an XL2 and a mini35 but will wait a month if I have to if I may get a higher res...
any word on mini35 support? sheesh. Jury-rig something...
March 30th, 2005, 03:36 PM
I thought they said it would be on the market July 1st. Or was it June 1st?
Of course, I could be making that up, but I thought I read that somewhere...
March 30th, 2005, 03:57 PM
Everything I've read, said June 1st. I've also heard they're so confident about the release date they're going to take pre-orders at NAB (I don't know how reliable that info is though.)
March 30th, 2005, 05:11 PM
Yeah waiting is the key at this stage. Then you'll know things like
- Is the new P2 cam going to be an interchangeable system like the new JVC
- Is it shoulder mount?
- How much storage is coming standard with the new P2
Cause if all other things are equal, why go ANYWHERE near MPG2 HD (HDV) if you can get DVCPro? And yeah that was sort of a question that I'd like someone to answer for me...why would anyone chose HDV over DVCPro?
March 30th, 2005, 08:13 PM
the only reason to go HDV is if all the big boys FORCE us too.
I hate mpg2. Its a broadcast format NOT a MASTER format. Not by a long shot...unless you NEVER do color grading and NEVER do compositing and never ever greenscreen. hmm...guess you could shoot a DOC with the camera. That is if you don't want ANY color style effects...makes me feel like we are going back to the days BEFORE DI NLE and post effects...how lame...oh well I guess your footage will look EXACTLY like mine with the freedom HDV allows us in post....a warm and fuzzy format eh?
This is the reason why I am building my own camera from the chip back...
I hope to share that dream when my project is finished.
March 30th, 2005, 10:11 PM
<< the only reason to go HDV is if all the big boys FORCE us too. >>
Except... nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. Ultimately the end user makes the decision as to how their money is spent; and there are a variety of HD format options available.
If you don't want HDV, then you don't buy HDV. It's that simple.
March 31st, 2005, 12:29 AM
<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : << nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. >>
I kind of disagree with you in that point because money is something that definitely makes things happen... as influence a buying decision based on market standards and prices. If this is the maximun quality for under $10,000 then we don't have any other choice and we are forced to accept the HD flavor they want. (I'm talking here about us who can't afford a VARICAM or a CINEALTA.
But, I think is a good alternative. Just as DV was an alternative to BETACAM.
March 31st, 2005, 12:34 AM
I think it's a good alternative, too.
But my point was that there's always another way. Can't afford to buy into HDCAM SR? Then rent it instead. The manufacturers are offering the HDV format, but they're certainly not forcing it on anybody. Ultimately you're the one who chooses how you spend your money, not them.
March 31st, 2005, 01:34 AM
Sure, but I think we need to assume here, that people want to stay in business. Now I'm not saying it's got to this stage now, but as the HDV mania increases clients will start demanding it more and what options do people in the price bracket that a lot of people here are in, have? They will have to go HD, and unless there are many other options we'll be forced into HDV. Now it looks like there's going to be at least one company that's challenging this (Panasonic) and that's lucky for us. But what if people are trying to work in an area where DVCPro isn't the workflow? If HDV is pushed hard enough, fast enough it will gain market share. It's then that people will feel compelled to use HDV no?
Dunno, I'm just worried that this huge push of crapola HDV is going to do something nasty to the market and leave us all with bad tastes for years to come. Let's hope not.
March 31st, 2005, 02:06 AM
Well, I've seen a lot of HDV that most definitely was not "crapola."
You're reminding me of the days back in late '95 and '96 when a lot of professional shooters were quaking similarly over DV. They were saying, "nobody's gonna use that junk!" but look what happened. With regard to HDV being pushed hard enough and fast enough, well, DV was pushed hard and fast too but that didn't stop me from having to explain it to clients for years afterwards, meaning, I never had one who demanded DV. They never knew about DV. They're not going to know about HDV either. All they're going to demand from you is, can you deliver high definition. And yes you can, through a number of affordable options that are available to you.
March 31st, 2005, 03:10 AM
Chris, but aren't the options (within the "low end" market) basically HDV or some MPG equivalent cams and the this possible Panasonic that's coming out?
I agree, I am a bit of an anti MPG zealot here but I'm actually finally going to go to a Sony HDV demo next week at a local pro video dealer and see what this is capable of. I am not against it due to image quality, I can believe what people say about it (within reason) but I can't get my head around working on a timeline in MPG2. Maybe their's is different, but in my past dealings with MPG2 footage (SD even) it's damned awful.
I'm sure the footage will be great, I just feel ripped off a bit with a half arsed attempt like HD via MPG. I think it's a cheap strategy by the cam makers, and I'll always think that, even if it absolutely amazing to look at.
March 31st, 2005, 08:04 AM
I hear ya, Aaron.
Both HDV and P2HD (from Panasonic) require new ways of thinking with regard to workflow. I'll be interested to hear your feedback from your HDV demo -- be sure to let us know how that goes, please.
March 31st, 2005, 08:17 AM
I remember thinking before I actually saw and worked with HDV that all the color correction I do in my work would fall apart with HDV, that MPEG2 couldn't possibly hold up, and that I'd never want to work in it.
It's not that bad. Really, in some ways, I prefer it to DV. I haven't made any objective tests, but it seems to have less of the DV characteristic mosquito noise...and the MPEG2 motion business only falls down if you have whole frame movement quick and frequent enough to make people seasick anyway.
Of course these are just my opinions, and other people will think I'm crazy. But please please work with it a little before you denounce it so much, especially here.
Also, if you're scared of the flow so much, just find an NLE that converts on input. Apple is taking that route, and I'm glad for it.
March 31st, 2005, 10:02 AM
Aaron - "but I can't get my head around working on a timeline in MPG2."
Well even if one were to work with HDV you are not forced to stay in the .mT2 codec. No professional would. Solutions from Canopus and Cineform and others are what make this new format excell.
March 31st, 2005, 12:37 PM
If you have the the look you want without color/exposure corrections in post, a $120 program called Womble MPEG Video Wizard will edit (very fast) directly onto the m2t stream, not only just the usual cuts and joins but also transitions, titling, dubbing, voice overs and music tracks.
The output is only re-encoded for a few frames around the edit points for transitions and title frames, and not at all for simple cuts and joins. Your video output remains native and lossless.
April 2nd, 2005, 06:19 PM
<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : Aaron - "but I can't get my head around working on a timeline in MPG2."
Well even if one were to work with HDV you are not forced to stay in the .mT2 codec. No professional would. Solutions from Canopus and Cineform and others are what make this new format excell. -->>>
That's such an important point. Although one can edit 720p24/30 very easily on a 3.2GHz P4 -- the 2X compute requiements of 1080i really make CineForm the PC solution. Looks like AIC and DVCPRO HD are our only "poor" choices from Apple.
It's interesting that those who rail most against MPEG-2 both have no experience with it and no idea of how it's edited.