View Full Version : .mxf Files Mishandled in Premiere CS4 CS5


William Urschel
June 8th, 2010, 06:33 AM
PROBLEM - Attempt edit .mxf files. I have a serious and bizarre issue with BOTH Premiere CS4 and CS5, which I am posting here and several other places, in hopes that someone might provide a suggestion before I pay Adobe for their comment or laboriously and awkwardly attempt to edit with Sony Vegas Pro 8, which works fine, but with which I have no experience! To wit, I have a Sony EX1 with an attached Convergent Designs nanoFlash, and am attempting to edit .mxf data (1080x1920 30p, 100Mbps, Long GOP). I can import and edit the .mxf files quite satisfactoriy into Vegas Pro 8, but in the timeline of both Premiere Pro CS4 and CS5, BOTH the video and audio show up ONLY in the video timeline! I can edit the video OK, but any edit of audio in Premiere is totally impossible - the only way the audio can be edited is to take it into Soundbooth, clip by clip from the Premiere timeline, and then bring it back into Premiere, where it again is combined with the Video (making audio transitions, etc. impossible). I am absolutely intent upon using the Convergent Designs nanoFlash data (taken from the Sony EX1 SDI output in uncompressed 4:2:2), since the nanoFlash data is just soooooo pristine, in comparison to the usual SxS collected 35 Mbps 4:2:0 data!

Before I go further, to let you know what I am running all this on: A BOXX 4850, ASUS motherboard, CPU Intel i7 Quad Core overclocked at 4 GHz, Memory 6GB DDR 1333, Video NVIDIA Quadro CX (yes, qualified for superb performance with Premiere CS5), two hard drives, both 7,200 SATA, 250GB for programs and 500GB RAID 0 for data, OS discussed below (first, Vista Ultimate 64 bit, then WIN 7 Ultimate, 64 bit. Tests of all hardware indicate that all are functioning normally.

On a totally clean installation, I first installed Vista Ultimate 64 bit, updated, and with everything else installed and updated (including NVIDIA, audio drivers, etc.) and the Adobe Production Premium CS4. Everything I then imported and edited, except the .mxf files, operated normally with very few crashes. The MainConcept XDCAM PlugIn was installed to permit importing .mxf data into Premiere. And as noted above, both .mxf video and audio data showed up only in the video timeline.

SOOOO, I conducted another totally clean install, this time with WIN 7 Ultimate 64 bit, Adobe Production Premium CS5 (no plug-in required for high data rate .mxf files) and again all drivers installed and updated. It might be noted that Adobes' Premiere CS5 still has a serious bug even in its latest rendition, namely, at least for .mxf files, one channel of stereo audio lags the other). BUT the same issue AGAIN showed up - both video and audio show up ony in the video timeline.

Convergent Designs staff has been exemplary in providing their, as usual, exceptionally timely and knowledgeable response when I presented them with this bizarre issue - but they have no solution for me - a similar configuration (PC, windows, Adobe, etc.) operates fine on their setup! And they have provided me a high data rate long GOP nanoFlash generated test file which shows up fine on their set up, but which just exhibits the same strange behavior on my Premiere CS4 and CS5.

At present, I am able to edit test clips perfectly in Vegas Pro 8, export the file wrapped avi, coded in Adobe Media Encoder CS5, and then produce BD through Adobe Encore CS5 without a hitch - and with the nano data from the EX1 - WOW! What a comparative absence of artifacts - how sharp on the big screen - how great for blue screen, etc., etc.!

Soo, you might well ask, why don't I just use Vegas Pro 8, instead of either of the editions of Premiere? Well, I am still very slowly and laboriously learning the ins and outs of Vegas (using the excellent Editing Workshop provided by Douglas Spotted Eagle), BUT I have been using Premiere as an editor for the last thirteen years, and would like to continue to use Premiere.

If anyone out there has any suggestions as to the genesis and possible solution to my problems in attempting to utilize Premiere, it would be greatly appreciated.

Dan Keaton
June 8th, 2010, 09:50 AM
Dear William,

I just alerted Mr. Tommy Schell about your post.

He is reading it now and will comment as soon as possible.

We do know that CS5 has some audio issues that they are working on.

Tommy Schell
June 8th, 2010, 10:29 AM
Hi William,

perhaps other CS4 / Main Concept plug-in / nanoFlash users who are more knowledgable can comment on this, but in our experience this combination works fine.
As we've discussed in the past, there may be something in your Windows setup or some conflicting software of some sort that is causing trouble? Your situation is puzzling.

CS5 will support our files natively without a plug-in, however Adobe is still resolving some problems with handling our audio and timecode, so no surprise there that you are having trouble.

Thanks for your complements.

Tommy Schell

Mark Job
June 8th, 2010, 09:21 PM
Before I go further, to let you know what I am running all this on: A BOXX 4850, ASUS motherboard, CPU Intel i7 Quad Core overclocked at 4 GHz,... Tests of all hardware indicate that all are functioning normally.

Hey Bill: I know this may come across as a bit of a stupid question, but what would happen if you took away the OC on your system and re-tested Premiere CS4 & CS5 while running your hardware at spec ?
On a totally clean installation, I first installed Vista Ultimate 64 bit, updated, and with everything else installed and updated (including NVIDIA, audio drivers, etc.) and the Adobe Production Premium CS4. Everything I then imported and edited, except the .mxf files, operated normally with very few crashes. The MainConcept XDCAM PlugIn was installed to permit importing .mxf data into Premiere. And as noted above, both .mxf video and audio data showed up only in the video timeline.

SOOOO, I conducted another totally clean install, this time with WIN 7 Ultimate 64 bit, Adobe Production Premium CS5 (no plug-in required for high data rate .mxf files) and again all drivers installed and updated. It might be noted that Adobes' Premiere CS5 still has a serious bug even in its latest rendition, namely, at least for .mxf files, one channel of stereo audio lags the other). BUT the same issue AGAIN showed up - both video and audio show up ony in the video timeline....You are introducing a great number of variables and inconsistencies by switching to multiple OS's. I suggest you stick to one OS you know to be the most stable. Also, you are testing out two separate versions of Adobe Premiere here. (CS4 & CS5). You are asking for pain and suffering by doing this. Perhaps you could try the latest iteration of Premiere and stick with this only to assist in illiminating variables. As an experienced over clocker myself, I have encountered instances where the overclock was rock stable, but the editing app was not.
At present, I am able to edit test clips perfectly in Vegas Pro 8, export the file wrapped avi, coded in Adobe Media Encoder CS5, and then produce BD through Adobe Encore CS5 without a hitch - and with the nano data from the EX1 - WOW! What a comparative absence of artifacts - how sharp on the big screen - how great for blue screen, etc., etc.!...This could be the big message ! If you have to edit and deliver on DVD or BD, then Vegas is a killer app ! Vegas is elegant and streamlined. The problem with Premiere is you need a close set of hardware pre-requisites to make it run at spec. (And Yes I'm very critical of Adobe for not being straight about *What kind of a system you **really need to run CS5 !!) IMHO, Premiere CS5 wants an HP Z800 totally tricked out to run flawlessly. If you can stand it, then try and use Vegas.
If anyone out there has any suggestions as to the genesis and possible solution to my problems in attempting to utilize Premiere, it would be greatly appreciated....I wish you the best of success with your system. I recoil at the thought of you purchasing not one, but two NLE apps which you simply can't use to edit ! Especially since neither CS4 or CS5 is inexpensive.

William Urschel
June 9th, 2010, 05:30 AM
Mark,

Thanks much for your thoughtful and thorough comments. Since I'm
not computer literate, I would need some tech to help me re your OC
suggestion. Also, I guess I wrote tooooo much above, and to reiterate,
I ran CS4 alone on Vista, and again, on a completely new reinstall with
WIN7, CS5 ran alone, until Vegas was installed.

I may just end up learning VEGAS, and Adobe is not a total loss at all,
with AE, AME, Encore, etc.

Will be in the field the next three days.
'

Roman Stikel
June 9th, 2010, 06:40 AM
I think all of us are still waiting for an Adobe update that will help us work with Premiere Pro CS5 without a Hitch. Any info on when this might happen. Roman

William Urschel
June 9th, 2010, 02:08 PM
Back sooner today than I thought.

Roman, given Premiere's past performance after new versions are brought out,
a timely fix of current bugs might be a bit too much to hope for. I'm sure we have
all seen the many opinions expressed that in the Adobe family, Photoshop is the
stellar center, while Premiere is the poor stepchild - from what I've seen, I'd have
to agree, particularly with the abomination of some Premiere editions in the late
90's, though I was finally thrilled with Premiere CS4 because I could throw just
about anything at it (until the recent mxf files) and it performed just so close to
flawlessly. Sorry, way off topic, and here and other forums, I still don't have a
solution to my posted inquiry, and I'm getting close to paying a big fee to Adobe
to find out if they have any solution for me. Given that I see the same bizarre
behaviour in both Premiere CS4 and CS5, someone has suggested that after all
something may be radically wrong with my computer, including the video card,
even though all the tests I've run indicate that everything is A-OK. Would hate
to spend another couple of thousand on a video card, though it would be a cheap
investment compared to my investment of time so far in trying to identify the issue,
etc.. And there I go again, way off topic!

Roman Stikel
June 9th, 2010, 02:37 PM
The issue is not with the computer. The issue is with Adobe CS5 and the old CS4. Don't swap or spend money yet. Also, I would ask whether someone the Nanoflah side is working on a solution.? Roman

Dan Keaton
June 9th, 2010, 02:50 PM
Dear William,

We know for a fact that CS5 does not handle our files perfectly.

We know that they are working on a fix. We expected it to be in CS5.1.

With CS4, you need MainConcept to work with our files.

You have reinstalled your computer many times. Would you consider a clean install of CS4 + MainConcept without complicating matters by having CS5 on the same computer?

Of course, once you get CS4 + MainConcept Adobe Plug-In to work, you could backup your system and see if installing CS5 causes a problem.

Do you have MainConcept? For nanoFlash owners, the price is $199, a special deal.

Mark Job
June 9th, 2010, 02:58 PM
and I'm getting close to paying a big fee to Adobe to find out if they have any solution for me. Hey Bill:
Try to resist the temptation to spend your way out of this problem. I honestly consider it will be a total tragedy if you spend even one more dime - No ! - Even one more nickel ! - On friggin Adobe Premiere for Windows ! Apart from Adobe After Effects, it's just not worth it ! Time to cut your losses and go headlong into Sony Vegas, or Avid Media Composer. I'm beginning to wonder if Adobe has forgotten that we *shouldn't have to be freaking software engineers to operate their products ! Hello Adobe ! Wake up ! Come on ! No one should be having this level of difficulty trying to edit their footage ! It's just ridiculous ! I don't care what Adobe says, you should be able to cut CD's XDR & Nano Flash clips in Premiere. Why ? because CD is using Sony XDCAM HD 4:2:2 codec, therefore, @ Long GOP. MXF @ 50 Mbps - all things should be stellar ! How about I-Frame (Intra) ?

** Another suggestion: Bill, find someone else in your neck of the woods who has another Nano or an XDR for that matter, and play out all your clips in the Nano and connect via HD-SDI to another Nano (or XDR) and try recording using I-Frame. If that doesn't work, then try Quicktime (QT) setting. Now take the newly dubbed clips into Premiere. If that doesn't work, then you know what to do with Premiere ;-) !!!

William Urschel
June 9th, 2010, 05:27 PM
Gentlemen: Thanks much for your just posted comments.

Part of the problem I have created in this thread (the original posting) is that
I provided way too much detail, and some got lost in it. To reiterate, briefly,
here is what I said about the installations:

1) First, the program hard drive was wiped clean, and then installed was
Vista Ultimate 64 bit OS, Premiere CS4, and the appropriate MainConcept
plug in (as Dan mentioned above, for $199.00). NO installation was made of
ANYTHING from CS5 - I didn't have it yet!

2) Then the program hard drive was wiped clean again, and then installed
was WIN7 Ultimate 64 bit, and Premiere CS5. NO installation was made then,
or since of ANYTHING from CS4. After the bizarre failure again re audio
and video showing up only in the video timeline, VEGAS Pro 8 was installed.

Finally, Convergent design sent me a short mxf file produced by nanoflash which
they had run on Windows, Premiere with no issue such as I've described. When
I imported it first on Premiere CS4, and then the entirely new and separate installation
of CS5 as just described, I had the same video/audio abomination as described.

Mark Job
June 9th, 2010, 06:52 PM
Hi Bill: Even though you wiped your HDD clean each time, you still introduced some really wide variables to the equation of your matrix. Allow me to try and explain more clearly. The difficulties in your situation may stem from the fact that not only did you change Premiere versions each time, you also changed OS versions each time. Believe me, this is a big deal. Different Windows's OS's speak to low level driver kernel in different ways. Also, are you changing back and fourth between 32 and 64 Bit OS's ? These are things to consider along the way to iliminating the variables.

What I'm suggesting is for you to pick one OS and one version of Premiere, then stick with those for the rest of your journey through until the resolution of your malfunction.

Tim Kolb
June 9th, 2010, 09:08 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if Adobe has forgotten that we *shouldn't have to be freaking software engineers to operate their products ! Hello Adobe ! Wake up ! Come on ! No one should be having this level of difficulty trying to edit their footage ! It's just ridiculous ! I don't care what Adobe says, you should be able to cut CD's XDR & Nano Flash clips in Premiere. Why ? because CD is using Sony XDCAM HD 4:2:2 codec, therefore, @ Long GOP. MXF @ 50 Mbps - all things should be stellar ! How about I-Frame (Intra) ?



Um...yes, well I'm certainly an advocate for Convergent Design, but I suspect if the file structures were truly identical, there likely would be no issue, correct? I just put a 50 Mbit Long GOP 422 MXF-wrapped Flash Nano clip on the timeline and it's the same thing. The audio is there, the waveform is there, the sound plays out from the timeline. The sound does not play back from the source window, or the bin.

I assume the main problem is that Bill can't trim in the source window because of this...very annoying, no doubt, but I dropped filters on the audio portion of the clip on the timeline, and made keyframed volume adjustments, I trimmed it (even using the alt key, to trim separately from the video) and it all worked... Maybe the assessment that you "can't edit the audio" in the current state means something different to you than me, but I manipulated the audio on the timeline quite easily.

Before we ask Adobe to "wake up" and rail about how they've forgotten there are customers and all that jazz...and bring up the 90s....(honestly? You have to go back a decade to find another event so you can claim a trend?) Maybe Convergent Design has some thoughts about how their files are different than camera-created XDcamHD 422? Keep in mind I get the same results when I load an AJA sequence preset into PPro where the player is now AJA's...the clip plays on the timeline, but not in the source window.

Keep in mind that I'm editing DSLR footage native on the timeline, P2, AVCHD, AVC-Intra, I handle RED in its RAW form with complete Debayer and decode controls, etc, etc... I hardly think Adobe has been sleeping.

I'd like them to come to a conclusion too, but I don't see how needing to fix this means that Adobe expects any of us to be computer programmers...that statement makes no sense to me.

They've had several updates since the software was released already.

Keep it professional.

Mark Job
June 10th, 2010, 12:21 AM
Um...yes, well I'm certainly an advocate for Convergent Design, but I suspect if the file structures were truly identical, there likely would be no issue, correct? ....We don't have enough information to make such an assessment. Is the cause of Bill's difficulties due to Premiere's inability to read XDCAM HD files in a different file structure, or is it a codec incompatibility ?
I just put a 50 Mbit Long GOP 422 MXF-wrapped Flash Nano clip on the timeline and it's the same thing. The audio is there, the waveform is there, the sound plays out from the timeline. The sound does not play back from the source window, or the bin.

I assume the main problem is that Bill can't trim in the source window because of this...very annoying, no doubt, but I dropped filters on the audio portion of the clip on the timeline, and made keyframed volume adjustments, I trimmed it (even using the alt key, to trim separately from the video) and it all worked... Maybe the assessment that you "can't edit the audio" in the current state means something different to you than me, but I manipulated the audio on the timeline quite easily....I'm glad it works for you. Bill seems to be advocating it isn't working for him.
Before we ask Adobe to "wake up" and rail about how they've forgotten there are customers and all that jazz...and bring up the 90s........I'm not sure where I brought up the 90's, are you ?
(honestly? You have to go back a decade to find another event so you can claim a trend?)....So now I'm going back 10 years to claim a trend am I ? OK.
Maybe Convergent Design has some thoughts about how their files are different than camera-created XDcamHD 422?...Maybe they do ? I have read several times on this forum where CD claims their Sony XDCAM HD 4:2:2 files are identical to the industry standard. I am assuming they are correct.
Keep in mind I get the same results when I load an AJA sequence preset into PPro where the player is now AJA's...the clip plays on the timeline, but not in the source window.

Keep in mind that I'm editing DSLR footage native on the timeline, P2, AVCHD, AVC-Intra, I handle RED in its RAW form with complete Debayer and decode controls, etc, etc... I hardly think Adobe has been sleeping.....Well let's take a look at that. Let's see...Avid Media Composer handles CD's Long GOP .MXF files @ 50 Mbps. I believe Sony Vegas also does. I think XDCAM HD 4:2:2 files are pretty standard fair these days.
Keep it professional.....Yes. Let's do that. This is why I suggested a possible work around four responses back. You know, I'm not in love with anyone particular NLE either. I have FCP, Avid, I've used DPS, Premiere, I'll use anything I can get my hands on actually. I've criticized them all. I've been watching Premiere's development and I am not happy with it. I think CS5 is written by lazy programmers who expect way too much CPU horsepower, way too much memory, a ridiculous freaking GPU level that's frankly unrealistic ! Yes ! This is my opinion and I stand by it. I'm concerned that end users like Bill are getting swept away in that rushing river. I'm also critical of Avid Media Composer's new specks for MC ver 5.x and the upcoming 6.x. Avid is basically saying even an HP z 400 isn't enough ! They say HP z 800 tricked to the max ! Yeah ? Well that is one truly expensive PC. I think an argument can still be made for proprietary software & hardware accelerated plugging boards - because this guarantees realtime performance even on much slower and yes - older PC's. This is of course only my opinion. Use whatever works for you ultimately.

Steve Kalle
June 10th, 2010, 12:47 AM
William: so I understand you correctly, can you better explain what your problem is?

This statement is confusing, "but in the timeline of both Premiere Pro CS4 and CS5, BOTH the video and audio show up ONLY in the video timeline!" I don't understand why either the audio or video should be anywhere else when its in the timeline.

If you haven't already, try using just 1 hard drive. Mark is right about eliminating as many variables as possible.

One way of reverting the CPU speed back to stock is to clear the motherboards CMOS, which can be done by removing the battery for a minute - and make sure the computer has been unplugged from the wall outlet for a minute or more. Clearing the CMOS reverts the BIOS back to default settings. This will also clear your Raid settings but don't worry, it can be setup again and there is no chance of losing any data.

I would also run memtest86 Memtest86+ - Advanced Memory Diagnostic Tool (http://www.memtest.org/) to check your ram. A bad piece of ram can cause an infinite number of problems - I know thanks to a bad stick last year. You need to burn the memtest as an image (you cant just copy and paste like a data CD/DVD). I use ImgBurn - its free. And let memtest run overnight. (FYI, the Windows' memtest is junk so don't even try that)

Another idea I have is the graphics card - the way Premiere utilizes the video card is different from Vegas, which could cause the discrepancy (I think their use of OpenGL is different). You can call PNY or nvidia to help you determine if it is your Quadro.

I agree with Tim - these rants,...give me a break. I have both a tricked out Z800 (dual 6 core Xeons, FX 3800, 24GB ram) and a home-built i7 PC (running at stock speed) and have no problems with CS5 on either.

Tim Kolb
June 10th, 2010, 01:11 AM
Sorry Mark, I should have quoted William on the 90s thing...I maybe should have reacted to the assessment that late 90s versions were "abominations."

...given Premiere's past performance after new versions are brought out,a timely fix of current bugs might be a bit too much to hope for. I'm sure we have
all seen the many opinions expressed that in the Adobe family, Photoshop is the
stellar center, while Premiere is the poor stepchild - from what I've seen, I'd have
to agree, particularly with the abomination of some Premiere editions in the late
90's...

There is this one hangup...on this one file type...and suddenly this kind of thing. I'm not saying we should live with the issue, it needs to be fixed, I'm just saying that for the moment, I verified his issue and it wasn't like there was no recognition of the file or that it couldn't be altered. I believe Vegas handles nearly, if not all the video file formats that PPro does...it sounds like this might be William's best answer.

If William wants to be mad at Premiere Pro, please be mad at CS5 or CS4, or at least something real that can be fixed. Bringing up the versions released in the 90s and "the opinions we've all heard expressed" about "poor stepchildren" and all that is just silliness. CS3 had more native editing modes at the end of its life cycle than it did in the beginning...that's a recent and more pertinent version of "Premiere's past performance after new versions are brought out."

BTW, Premiere Pro CS5 does pretty well on a decent CPU without any GPU augmentation. Today I was editing on a year or two old Mac Dual Quad Core Xeon 2.26 GHz with no GPU help. It wasn't like I was limping by any means. The 'necessity' of a GPU has been overstated by many who either 1.) Haven't actually edited with CS5 yet or 2.) are trying to duplicate Adobe's shiny-object demos of 8 layers of P2 720p with effects...

(I won't further hijack the thread on proprietary hardware video editing systems, which I have nothing against, though I bought plenty of them and I don't remember them being less expensive overall than the "super duty" general application workstations we all run now...)

William Urschel
June 10th, 2010, 07:24 AM
Well! Gentlemen, what can I say! Except I really appreciate all of your comments, and will respond to some of them here before I run out the door......

WARNING - this may not be short, and it certainly isn't organized or necessarily pertinent - so much for mea culpas. And if you get lost in my details, its certainly understandable.

To begin with, to clarify one issue (I hope for clarity rather than obsfucation), during the prior year I was running Premiere CS4 (well, the whole Production Premium CS4) on Vista Ultimate 64 bit, and was just as pleased as punch! EVERYTHING worked effectively and almost flawlessly in importing, editing, and exporting the files straight off the SxS files from the Sony EX1 - the ONLY exception was when I attempted to ingest MPEG2 HD codec files generated within Adobe Media Encoder into Adobe Encore, but there was a very simple and easy work around for that. I innocently hummed along and was just so happy to have the
beautiful, uninterrupted, flawless, effective workflow running on my BOXX 4850! BUT, I was still unhappy with the final product on the big screen (again, 109 inch front projection, 42 inch LCD flat panel, etc, as test venues) because of some artifacts and particularly unacceptable interline twitter on fine horizontal lines and sharp edges, when finally shown on my test screens and those of many of my customers. I invested a lot of time, money, and agony in using six different apps to generate more effective final codecs for BluRay, and finally went back to all the Adobe products. And yes, I tried ALL the tricks of the trade with EX1 Camera Profiles and gaussian blur and other devices in edit, and the loss of resolution of the output of the superb EX1 was just not acceptable.

Then along came nanoFlash! And I ran some test shots with it (again, 1080x1920 30p, mostly at 1/60 second, and sometimes 1/120 second, 100Mbps, Long GOP), and I ran these in Premiere Pro CS4, and
ALL the problems I had seen with the original production from the EX1 were absent, plus, as you all know,
much better definition, color fidelity, etc., etc. - and I will either use the nanoFlash on the EX1, or I am done.

Given the insoluable problem I experienced with audio in Premiere CS4 (YES, utilizing the appropriate MainConcept plug in for high data rate mxf files!), I waited with Norman Bates' breath for Premiere CS5 (well, Adobe Production Premium CS5 upgrade) and ordered it as soon as it was out, and decided for another clean install, so wiped the hard drive, installed WIN 7 Ultimate 64bit (64 bit is ALL I've ever used on the BOXX), installed Production Premium CS5, installed all other necessary programs, updated EVERYTHING, all drivers, etc., current, blah, blah...........

And Arrrrggggg, the same problem showed up just as before, as I have here described ad nauseum.
But unless I just quit the field, I am stuck to Windows, I am using ONLY WIN7 Ultimate 64 bit, and Adobe CS5, if I can make Adobe work. I am NOT ever going back to VISTA or CS4. I have not switched back and forth and back and forth, and will not do so. So there!

As an ancillary comment in the midst of all these ancillary comments (well, I warned you this wouldn't be organized!) I seem to be the ONLY one on the planet with the kind of issue I have! No one else here, or on other sites, such as Adobe's, COW, etc.. At this point, unless I can "fix" me with Premiere, or successfully switch to Vegas, I may shoot my $7,200 BOXX and retire to another field! But seriously, at this juncture, if I continue, I will probably end up being a humble student of Vegas Pro 9.

And before aspersions are cast upon the innocent, it was I who brought up the abominable state of Premiere in the late 90's. In 1997 I spent over two months with then insoluable problems with the latest iteration of Premiere, dealing with over 120 phone calls with Sony (who produced my computer) and Adobe - and mainly what they did was point the finger (or the gun, or whatever) at each other, and I do not hesitate to say as a fact that I was lied to outright so many times on both ends that my compatriots just wondered why I didn't quit. And that is not slander, that is the TRUTH. I finally saw the light and had true Salvation (!) by going on one of the then burgeoning Internet Boards, such as this, enumerating the issue, and WOW!, within two hours I was given a total solution to my issue. I stayed on that board for another year at least, and every time that someone posted the same problem which I had had, I sent along the solution that I was so intelligently and kindly given!

There I go again....back to the point.

TIM: In my faulty installation, apparently unlike yours, I am able to play the sound out from the source window and the bin, as well as the timeline. I just can't edit it.

STEVE: That is ONE machine you have! I will run the memtest86 which you suggested, this weekend and try your suggestion of running everything on just one hard drive. But I become pretty agitated when even considering "removing the battery....". Sorry about my evidently confusing "but in the timeline of both PP CS4 and CS5, the video and audio show up ONLY in the video timeline." To wit, I hope this provides some clarification - there is only ONE bar in the timeline, which contains both the video and audio, and it is in the track labled VID 1 in the timeline. In the AUD 1 or any other audio line below the video lines, there appears NOTHING. In that single bar which includes both the video and audio, I can edit the video portion just fine, lay out the graphical representation of the timeline frame by frame, etc., etc., BUT when it comes to audio I am totally defeated in doing ANYTHING, except right clicking on that video track in the timeline, and as stated before, taking it into Soundbooth and then bringing the editted audio back into the Premier video/audio bar - but then nor at any other time am I able to apply any audio effects, transitions, etc. To say it another way, there is a single bar in the video timeline in which both video and audio are found - in the lower audio portion of the timeline, there is no bar, there is nothing, and yes, I have CAREFULLY checked all of the audio set-ups in Preferences and Clip controls, and reviewed all empty audio tracks on the timeline (including the Master Audio track), and there is nothing.

Excuse me, I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (I'm qualified to say that, not only as one who studied EE at Purdue, but who is a licensed Clinical Psychologist, etc), and as most OCDs I am proud of it and unwilling to change! Sooooo thank you all for your responses and consideration, and until next time, I remain your faithful servent, J. William>

William Urschel
June 10th, 2010, 10:25 AM
Problem solved! I just ordered Sony's upgrade, Vegas Pro 9!!!!!!! I understand, both from the Sony site as well as the folks at CD that there are some probable issues with 9, but I assume they'll be taken care of by the time I get to speed up on it. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR COMMENTS AND YOUR ASSISTANCE!

Tim - Excuse me, I was typing the post just before this, as you were entering your previous post, correctly identifying me as the culprit re being critical of Adobe in the late 90s, and I again used the word abomination, as well as supplying some supporting data - and you are quite right, my comment is unprofessional in this day of reticence, political correctness, avoidance of calling anything negative for what it is, etc., and even more importantly it may be long gone historical gloop. But it scared the hell out of me to consider paying Adobe up to another $200 for "consultation" about my current issue, and then spending not only the money, but the rest of my life with........... well, you get it. So, I will revert to my "nice" passive persona, here in the future, after one more totally off topic comment. There is out there a software/computer company which in the interests of my being nice now I will not identify - I paid them $250 for "consultation" about one of their software OS/computers with which audio was lagging video on the timeline. They promised, after taking my credit card number to call me back within 24 hours - I never heard from them again, but in the meantime, on one of their "secret" web sites, I found the complete solution to my problem. I got rid of that very expensive computer. By the way, for those of you who have not seen it, don't miss "Pirates of Silicone Valley" which exposes the unbelievable meanness, arrogance, etc. of an individual who runs a very successful idolized cult today - and I'm not referring to Bill Gates!

Again, finally, my accolades and exceptionally deserved praise to Convergent Designs, and such firms as BOXX Technologies, here in Austin, Texas for the superb, timely service which they unerringly provide. If it were not for the few firms such as CD and BOXX, and you fellows, I would have shut down years ago.

Mark Job
June 10th, 2010, 10:53 AM
I agree with Tim - these rants,...give me a break. I have both a tricked out Z800 (dual 6 core Xeons, FX 3800, 24GB ram) and a home-built i7 PC (running at stock speed) and have no problems with CS5 on either....Hey Steve: I'm not sure my criticism qualifies as a "rant" per se, but it certainly is negative feedback. Should all negative feedback be called a rant ? You have the ultimate PC running Premiere. (An HP z 800 running 6 cores did you write ?). To me this is an ultimate PC, and a fairly expensive one. What about smaller, boutique independent post houses who may want to run Premiere on a more modest machine ? I think they are now out of the question with Premiere, and soon to be out of the question running Avid Media Composer as well.

Mark Job
June 10th, 2010, 11:32 AM
Problem solved! I just ordered Sony's upgrade, Vegas Pro 9!!!!!!! I understand, both from the Sony site as well as the folks at CD that there are some probable issues with 9, but I assume they'll be taken care of by the time I get to speed up on it. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR COMMENTS AND YOUR ASSISTANCE!...Hey Bill:
So problem solved with Adobe Premiere, you purchased another NLE ? (Vegas Pro 9 ?) So you dropped more cash again ?! OK. If you can afford it, then go for it, but I was hoping you could get one or both of your (Expensive Adobe Premiere Suite Packages) working for you. Don't get me wrong - I am happy you have a solution which now works for you :-) But I also feel a bit sad for you, because you have 3 or is it 4 NLE's now (??) to edit Nano Flash video. OK.

Ron Aerts
June 10th, 2010, 03:18 PM
I understand, both from the Sony site as well as the folks at CD that there are some probable issues with 9, but I assume they'll be taken care of by the time I get to speed up on it.

Oooops, I hope you don't have the green frames like a lot of us are having since Vegas 9.0c with the Nano MXF files.
As I do long recordings I still get green frames every start of a new mxf file. Or am I missing something. Also having sudden artafacts randomly in the recorded NF files.

I do hope this is not a problem with your files...

Piotr Wozniacki
June 10th, 2010, 03:24 PM
Oooops, I hope you don't have the green frames like a lot of us are having since Vegas 9.0c with the Nano MXF files.
As I do long recordings I still get green frames every start of a new mxf file. Or am I missing something. Also having sudden artafacts randomly in the recorded NF files.

I do hope this is not a problem with your files...

You're right, Ron - the green leading frames are still present with the NF Long-GoP files on Vegas (now 9.0e) timeline.

The random black frames in the I-Frame only clips have been fixed, though.

David Cherniack
June 10th, 2010, 03:57 PM
And out in the field I have a 1400$ Asus notebook with 6GB of ram that runs Premiere CS5 beautifully with multiple layers and RT effects on its 360M GPU (unsupported but works flawlessly.) Adobe has taken a quantum leap with CS5 in stability and performance. In the latter I believe they've jumped past everybody else in the NLE landscape. And this is from someone who was a big critic of CS4.

Plus, I'd guess that the fix for the CD files will be out sooner than later.

David

Billy Steinberg
June 10th, 2010, 04:13 PM
(1) I know this shouldn't make a difference.
(2) I know you just bought (an upgrade to) another piece of editing software.
(3) I only use Macs to edit, so what should I know about PCs anyway.

but the one thing I noticed in your messages was that you were using 64bit versions of the two OSes you tried. I know the advantages of running in 64bit, especially when editing (or using anything Adobe), but just for the sake of it, one day when you have nothing better to do, see if CS5 works for you with the 32bit Windows 7.

(just an un-requested thought).

Billy

David Cherniack
June 10th, 2010, 04:31 PM
Billy,

In CS5 Premiere, After Effects, and Media Encoder are only 64 bits. All three benefit from being free of the limits of working within Microsoft's 32 bit memory space but especially Premiere which could have benefited from going the 64 bit route many versions ago (like in 1.0, in my opinion).

I'd also like to echo Tim's observation that the Mercury playback engine in Premiere CS5 is in real performance enhancer, not the CUDA RT effects, that are great to use, but the the smooth playback and scrubbing of all native codecs on fairly modest equipment is something quite special. Light years beyond CS3 and CS4.

Davi

William Urschel
June 11th, 2010, 08:56 PM
I give up! I'm going to post another new thread asking about those of you who have the LATEST version of Vegas:

MARK: re your 11:32 AM post above, I will be lucky to have one NLE on which to edit nanoFlash files:

RON: Soon after and because I saw your comment about Vegas 9.0c, "sudden artifacts randomly in the recorded NF files", and assuming it was the latest iteration, I refused delivery of the overnight shipment of Vegas 9 and the latest Vegas workshop, so I don't have it. I had heard about a "few green frames at beginning", but your comment about the sudden artifacts did it for me! Then after doing another hour of Internet search I discovered version 9.0d, in which Sony "Implemented various compatability improvements to XDCAM MXF files", and then saw, posted above:

PIOTR's comment "the random black frames in I-Frame only clips have been fixed" in version 9.0e.

As I said, I give up!

Mark Job
June 11th, 2010, 10:52 PM
Hi Bill:
Oh man ! I'm so sorry to learn of your recent misadventure ! This is turning into a Greek Tragedy ! Bill, CD has fixed the 2 frame off sync when files are played back in the Nano Flash, so what about setting up Premiere CS5 to capture realtime via some external hardware capture card ? What about the possibility of picking up a blackmagic declink or something simular, or a MOTU external box and simply capture in realtime via HD-SDI or HDMI straight out of the Nano into Premiere using a codec which is Premiere friendly, and then editing this material in Premiere ? I'm trying to think of possible work arounds for you friend :-) This is just getting too sad.

Steve Kalle
June 11th, 2010, 11:12 PM
Does Cineform's HDLink yet recognize nanoFlash files above 50Mb?

C-D guys: do you know if Cineform is trying to make HDLink and nano files compatible?

What about Edius? I thought that program worked great with Long GOP nano files.

Bob Grant
June 12th, 2010, 02:18 AM
What kind of audio drivers are being used?
I cleared up quite a few problems in both Ppro and AE with audio by simply installing ASIO4ALL.

Dan Keaton
June 12th, 2010, 11:58 AM
Dear Steve,

We tested our files with Edius some time ago, they all worked.

I do not know if we have tested them recently, after we changed our files slightly to match the Sony XDCAM Optical Disk format. This should not have made any difference to Edius.

Sorry, but I do not know if CineForm HDLink currently works or not.

Our MXF Files are the compatible with Sony XDCam Optical Disk Format files.

Adam Stanislav
June 12th, 2010, 05:36 PM
Our MXF Files are the compatible with Sony XDCam Optical Disk Format files.

Dan, is the spec for this format available for download somewhere on the web?

Dan Keaton
June 12th, 2010, 06:18 PM
Dear Adam,

Not the I know of.

We worked closely with Sony and they suggested the very minor changes that we had to make to comply with their format.

We made the changes, then our files could be processed by Sony's XDCam cameras and optical disk decks.

Mark Job
June 12th, 2010, 10:30 PM
Dear Adam,

Not the I know of.

We worked closely with Sony and they suggested the very minor changes that we had to make to comply with their format.

We made the changes, then our files could be processed by Sony's XDCam cameras and optical disk decks....Hi Dan: Now if we could convince Avid to allow Convergent Design's XDCAM HD 4:2:2 file structure to be recognized by Media Composer's AMA feature (As MC recognizes the file structure as it exists on XDCAM recorded discs), then it would no longer be necessary to even have to import XDCAM HD files - just link to where they sit in a USB reader on a CF card or a firewire 800 reader.

Adam Stanislav
June 12th, 2010, 11:51 PM
Thanks, Dan.

William Urschel
June 14th, 2010, 08:53 AM
Gentlemen:

Finally, thank you ALL for your attention, your obvious perspicacity, and your very thoughtful suggestions to the nightmare I have been experiencing with all this. I am now running an Adobe app successfully, and almost all has been solved:

1) As I have posted here (and at quite a few other boards on the Internet), my latest insoluable problem in attempting to edit audio in mxf files was while running WIN7 Ultimate, with my prime focus upon using Premiere CS5 (Sony Vegas Pro 8 or 9 or whatever aside). As finally presented above in an organized way, and this may be very pertinent to the genesis of my wierd, wierd problem, first wiped the program hard drive clean, and performed what I thought was a clean install of Vista Ultimate 64bit, Adobe Production Premium CS4, and the appropriate MainConcept plug in to enable import and edit of the high data rate (100Mbps) nano mxf files. And ARRRGGGGEEE - then I could not edit the audio in the timeline of Premiere Pro CS4, as described ad nauseum. A crucial FACT that I failed to mention was that when I opened Premiere CS4, the empty timeline laid out THREE empty video tracks (which was what I had ALWAYS seen in set up), BUT the empty timeline laid out SEVEN EMPTY AUDIO TRACKS, PLUS A MASTER TRACK - this anomilie was
unlike the typical three empty audio tracks which any version of Premier had laid out over my prior 13 yearsw experience with Premier. And as I indicated, the audio could not be edited in the timeline, since it just wastn't there!

2) Soooo, as you well know, in utter disgust, and in hopes of a brighter future, I wiped the hard drive clean again and performed a clean install of WIN7 Ultimat 64bit, as well as the newly introduced Adobe Production Premium CS5, and again could not edit the audio within the timeline. And again I failed to mention that the blank timeline when opened had 3 video rows, but SEVEN audio rows. And I could not edit the audio in Premiere.

3) Because of a query and challenge (not hostile, mind you!) in another forum, regarding both of the above installations, I went into Preferences to check that the default source channel mapping for audio was properly set up - I did this twice for each separate set up, even though I knew it wasn't neccessary. And for an already imported clip not yet used in a sequence, I went into "Clip - Modify - Audio Channels" to further assure proper mapping. TO NO AVAIL. Everything just noted checked out, but I could not edit audio in any way in the timeline.

4) Sooooooo, yesterday, in the latest installation (Win7, Production Premium CS5), I opened Premiere and
imported some nano files, brought them into Premier, and then increased the audio rows in the timeline from the wierd seven to eight, and then to 9 -AND THERE IN THE NINTH AUDIO TRACK WAS THE AUDIO DATA CORRESPONDING TO THE VIDEO IN VIDEO TRACK ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And of course it was fully editable in the timeline, and it also, of course, exhibited the same ol one audio track lagging the other, which Adobe evidently does not feel is important enough to fix as yet - we can only hope - I'm waiting for someone to criticize me for my comment about that (as above), but give me a break!

5) In any event, and to close this up (you thought I never would, but considering all the effort all of you have
made, I thought a full description was in order), I have uninstalled Production Premium CS5 (until and if Adobe fixes the audio lag), reinstalled Production Premium CS4 and the corresponding necessary MainConcept plug-in, updated everything, and cleaned up the Registry. And so far, EVERYTHING APPEARS TO BE FUNCTIONING WELL, IN EDITING NANO MXF FILES, VIDIO AND AUDIO. When I first opened Premiere CS4, in the timeline, there were three video tracks and nine audio tracks. When I imported nano mxf files into Premiere and pulled a couple into the timeline, the video showed up in the timeline in video track one, while the audio showed up in audio track 9.


One final note. There was a query above regarding the compatibility of Cineform with what we're doing here.
I have invested over the years a considerable sum in Cineform and updates, and currently have rights to the latest NEO successor to my now out of date Prospect HD 4k. According to the latest on the Cineform board, if I am not mistaken, one of the Cineform principals in response to a query, indicated that Cineform could not handle the Sony related codec of nanoFlash - but anyone interested had better do their own investigation on that! I continue to use Cineform codec in the free Neo edition to handle my large collection of previously encoded cineform files DV and SxS.

Mark Job
June 14th, 2010, 10:28 AM
Hey Bill:
I am very happy for you. Now, you will hopefully not have to *spend* anymore cash to get something to actually work, because this is what it boils down to.

Steve Kalle
June 14th, 2010, 03:48 PM
Bill, my comment about Cineform not working was only about files from the nanoFlash, which Cineform does not yet support for conversion. I have tried using HDLink several times and it always says the format is not supported.

William Urschel
June 19th, 2010, 05:36 AM
Steve, my understanding in reading a post by one of Cineform's principals is that a "fix" enabling use of Cineform in handling nanoFlash files will NEVER come about because of the Sony codec used by nano.
If anyone has information reliably disputing this, I would be grateful to hear about it, since Cineform's "visually lossless" program is so blasted useful - and Cineform's responsiveness to its customers is the equal of the exceptional service we see on this Forum!

Tim Kolb
July 9th, 2010, 05:38 PM
Hi William,

I'm back a little late to the thread...

The audio track thing is interesting...I'm glad you've gotten a bit of an improvement anyway...

I need to duplicate the audio lag myself (and I trust that it's there...I just need to pass info in first hand on these things). Does there seem to be any difference between how the data rates play? (50Mb vs 100Mb, etc?) Out of curiosity, does I frame do any better (if you've tried it...)?

On CineForm and the never coming Sony XDcam support...can you link me to that thread? ...or is that something they told you over the phone?

Thanks!

Tim

Andy Urtusuastegui
July 9th, 2010, 11:01 PM
Tim, I am looking to buy a nanoFlash, and have CS5. So I have been doing a little testing.

I used the provided clips on the CD web page. 1080 30p 100mbit LongGop.

The sound is fine a the initial "Clap Sync", but by the time she says "1080P" the left and right channel are out of sync.

Steve Kalle
July 10th, 2010, 12:13 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the nano records 24bit uncompressed WAV. Can't you just unlink the audio from the video in Premiere?

Is the sync off ONLY during playback within the timeline or is the encoded timeline also affected?

Tim Kolb
July 10th, 2010, 01:12 AM
OK, Thanks Andy.

What sort of sequence are you running it in? XDcamHD 4:2:2?

William Urschel
July 10th, 2010, 06:49 AM
Tim - for info re compatability between nanoFlash files and Cineform, please see the DVInfonet Cineform board. Buried in there someplace, as my sometimes faulty memory fixates, one of the two principals of Cineform apparently made the statement that Cineform would not handle nanoFlash data now, nor would it in the future, because of the Sony based codec in nanoFlash - I believe also that the statement was made that the blockage to successful resolution of the issue did not rest with Cineform, but did with Sony......please, though, I could be at least partially mistaken about this......should I run across it again in my meanderings through the Cineform board, I will post a link here.

I have the rights to Cineform Neo4k v5 (recent successor, as you may well know, to Prospect4k). After reading the Cineform post I've just related, I dropped Cineform for the last couple of months until three days ago, and am now running it again - Neo4k v5 with Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 (with the MainConcept plug in). In a project I just started, set up for edit of nanoFlash files (1080x1920 30p 100Mbps Long GOP), thus far all I have done is two days of work in setting up some standard titling (close credits, etc) using the Adobe Premiere titler - I decided to reinstall Cineform in order to export and save all the title work permanently in a really clean way with the Cineform AVI wrapper, at which of course Cineform is so capable. But I haven't attempted to do anything further with it at the moment.

By the way, there is some ranting going on over at the Adobe sponsored board - Premeire CS5 - in a thread I started quite a while ago, inquiring about when we might see a fix to the nano audio issue in Premiere CS5. After a lapse of a week, that thread has suddenly become active. As above in this thread, I was not circumspect in my comments about Adobe and Premiere - if you think I am a bad person for my comments (!) you ought to see what is being posted by someone claiming to be an Adobe employee. And some Adobe customers on that same thread are far more direct than anything I've said about their "displeasure" with Adobe. One fellow indicates that he was "told" by Adobe (I won't use the word he used in place of "told") that Premiere CS5 worked fine with nanoFlash files, paid $2,000 for some version of a CS5 Suite, and now is more than just a bit displeased in finding out that this is not true.

Before I respond to your query about other formats I might have used in nanoFlash recordings, let me say that for the time being I have decided to again become the circumspect, politically correct "nice" guy I always was (past tense!), and not disparage anyone, and just praise those who provide such an great set of products and superlative, outstanding customer service, such as Convergent Designs, Cineform, and BOXX (BOXX, my PC maker here in Austin, Texas - WOW, are they soooo knowledgeable and helpful). But I will report the facts (facts?) as I have experienced them. To wit, as I said above, I have just spent two days creating some titling using Premiere CS4. For me, after some initial bugs were worked out by Adobe, Premiere CS 4 has been as solid as a rock, with two exceptions. The first has been the initial issue of this thread, a problem for which I am probably responsible. But forever, I personally have had problems with runawway RAM and crashes with the Premiere CS4 Titler. Given my again politically correct persona, I will not comment about what I have seen posted all over the place about others' experience with the Premiere CS4 Titler. But personally, instead of the two days I have just spent creating titles, it would have been only a day and a half, except that after a day, the Premiere CS4 Titler unexpectedly (excuse me, isn't ai always unexpected!) crashed, and not only took half my titles, but also or as part of the wipeout, removed the last ten of my twenty "saves", so I started all over. Just the facts....that's what happened, and has frequently happened to me. Let others speak for themselves!

Finally, you inquired about my running 50 Mbps files, ect. At this point I have run nothing but 100 Mbps Long GOP and don't intend to do anything else, even if it corrects the issue with CS5 sound (which according to some on the Adobe PPCS5 board it does not, but again, please see that board) since I am interested in recording close to the best possible picture at less than the top data rate.

In the words of Tiny Tim, "May God bless us, everyone."

Dan Keaton
July 10th, 2010, 07:21 AM
Dear William,

I really wish we knew when the audio issue in CS5 would be fixed and a new version released.

But, I do not know when the new version is scheduled to be released.

Does Adobe release any information as to when to expect their next version?

Tim Kolb
July 10th, 2010, 03:58 PM
William,

I only asked about other data rates as a troubleshooting question...not to recommend you change your workflow.

Titler...embedding title files in the project was the worst thing that ever happened to project stability in Premiere Pro...period.

...and yeah, I saw the Adobe forum thread. (You may want to revisit it...)

William Urschel
July 11th, 2010, 06:37 AM
Tim, I have just posted a query about Cineform's HD Link and my faulty memory (and perhaps faulty statements) over on the DVInfo Cineform board, and hopefully, we will be hearing some response from the fellows over there ( maybe even one of the two Davids!) Please go to: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/cineform-software-showcase/481685-does-hd-link-support-nanoflash-files.html

William Urschel
July 12th, 2010, 05:43 AM
Tim - one of the David's has now posted a response at the thread I just linked to above. Please see his comments about mxf which I didn't know and found very interesting! Apparently, for HD Link, nano files cannot be handled yet, but evidently Cineform is giving some kind of fix some attention, though it may be toward the back burner.

Dan Keaton
July 12th, 2010, 07:41 AM
Dear William,

To elaborate on David's post, in the other thread:

All MXF files are not created equal. By its very nature, MXF was designed as an "Extensible" (extentable) format. There is not "Correct" place for every item.

Even if the actual item (piece of data, or metadata), in the MXF header is identical, it may be in another place.

For example, if we have 10 data items, one could put them 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, whereas someone else could put them 1,2,4,7,3,6,10,8,9,5.

Thus, one has to search and find the data in the MXF header.

Also, there are multiple ways (flavors or formats) to record the audio. thus I understand David's comment that they have to work on the audio.

All of this is perfectly natural and expected.

As a side note, we offer a File Converter. One of the reasons we do so is to convert Apple's MXF format into our MXF format. Inside the nanoFlash, we want to save time by having the MXF header data where we expect them. So, we just re-arrange Apple's version so that it is in the order we want.

Originally, our MXF format was incompatible with Sony's Optical Disk Format. We modified ours to make it compatible.

Tim Kolb
July 12th, 2010, 11:06 AM
Yes indeed. The great thing about so many of our standards is that they're so darn flexible...

Now...why Sony decided to wrap EX files as MP4 while the original XDcamHD format is MXF? That's another interesting tale, I'm sure...

I'm glad some of this stuff is turning around. The tone was pretty down...and I knew that this wasn't being ignored by Adobe.

I like the CineForm guys and the work they do as well....and have since "Aspect HD for Premiere 6.5" came out way back when...

Piotr Wozniacki
July 12th, 2010, 11:45 AM
Now...why Sony decided to wrap EX files as MP4 while the original XDcamHD format is MXF? That's another interesting tale, I'm sure...


Oh yes - I have been wondering the same myself since the moment I learnt the file inside the MP4 (MPEG-4?) container is actually the old, good MPEG-2... Wrapped into MXF by other applications!