View Full Version : Red Scarlet & 3D
November 7th, 2011, 11:40 AM
Like many people I'm curious and impressed with the Scarlet feature set roll out this past week. I was also wondering about 3D beamsplitter application with a pair of them, specifically genlock and or shutter sync.
What I found out so far is that the Scarlet feature set, except for the high speed functions reserved for Epics, has all of the features that it's big brother has - including genlock and shutter lock/sync. This is accomplished through a cable available at the Red store online and apparently will be functional from day one of release.
Owning a pair of Sony F3's for 3D work, I'm not keen at this point to jump ship, however 3K, 4K and HD resolution choices are tempting. . .
Curious what other 3D forum participants think about this development.
November 7th, 2011, 03:12 PM
The feature set looks great. It also has a form factor which appears to make for much more compact 3D rigs. I'm building a beamsplitter for a pair of F3s and it's pretty big with both cameras on and the Sony lenses (better with the Zeis CP Primes). I'm also curious about using all that extra resolution for conforming and manipulation in post. Can it be used for an expanded HIT? It seems to offer a whole bunch of functionality and ability. And hopefully, integrates well with any current RED hardware/workflow already in place. Also, I'm crossing my fingers that the red remote/displays are going to have some 3D features built in as well. Even with slaves stuff set up, cameras are pretty hard to get to when packed into a beamsplitter. Having the controls on a cable (or cable-free) is a huge plus.
It's the pair of cameras I would buy today.
November 9th, 2011, 12:34 PM
One of the biggest reasons that Red cameras have been used on a lot of high budget feature films like Pirates of the Caribbean 4, and the upcoming Spiderman 4 is that the extra frame space created by 2K - 4K is used to enable parallel 3D shooting. With the extra frame area, HIT can easily be used in post to set the convergence wherever it is desired without losing any important resolution. When you do this with HD 1920 x 1080 frame size you have to scale up the image for any convergence changes not done in camera which has the potential to soften the image by virtue of reducing the resolution. The stereographers on Pirates shot everything in parallel mode with a little tiny convergence occasionally on the horizon. It's a big plus to do this, however, remember that Avatar (Sony F900 based) and Hugo (Alexa) are straight HD movies and were reconverged in post to some degree as all films must be. They looked pretty damned good even in Imax to me.
It's been my experience with Red Camera Company to wait as long as possible to purchase so as to let the bleeding edge bleed a little to fix the first set of inevitable issues.
November 11th, 2011, 02:55 PM
Hi Bruce, I've ordered a couple of Scarlets, I'll let you know how they go and how easy the workflow is, hopefully I'll be up and running within 2-3mths (waiting for the quad battery module to be available with the XL redvolts) I'll be using them sbs though, specifically for a project I'm working on, mainly landscape type stuff so no need for a beamsplitter. Looking forward to working with the 4k res as for the reasons you stated. I've already done some calculations on the larger file sizes with 4K Cineform 3D files and will be acquiring an extra 20T of storage.
At a rough calculation 4k Cineform Stereo files are approx 1G per 15sec.
November 13th, 2011, 02:41 AM
Scarlet does indeed look very interesting for use on rigs. We've got several users using Epics on the Hurricane Rig and getting good results. I recommend getting the kit to mount the cameras upside down as they are quite tall when right side up.
Don't be fooled into thinking that a Scarlet is significantly smaller or lighter than an F3. Scarlet is a little shorter but just as wide and the body is taller than the F3 body. A bare Scarlet weighs the same as a bare F3. Again for 3D rig use it will be best if mounted upside down as the lens mount is a long way from the camera base. Epic works out a fair bit heavier than an F3.
At the moment the HDSDi output on Epic is limited to 720P and is designed primarily as a monitoring output. There is a planned firmware update for 1080P output in the future. I assume Scarlet will be in a similar boat. This does raise one small question.... How do you align the cameras pixel perfect, if you can only see 1/4 resolution in real time? You could be 4 pixels out and simply not be able to see it. I don't think this is a deal breaker, but should be considered. Also the F3 is more sensitive and a little less noisy, so do you need resolution of low noise/low light?
The other thing to consider is workflow. Don't forget you have to post process Red files (De-Bayer, colour balance, gain) before you can use them in the edit, so that needs to be factored in to the workflow and budget. There are also questions over the EOS mount as the iris control steps in small increments but then Canon L series lenses are a lot lighter and cheaper than PL lenses yet optically perform very well When you have to buy/rent two of everything cost savings become doubly significant. So again do you choose PL or EOS mount.
I have to say I am extremely tempted. If I didn't have the F3's I may be looking at Scarlet, However the F3's are working very well for me. Maybe when the dust settles in 6 months to a year and my F3's have paid for themselves I'll make the jump. I think I'd rather not be a firmware developer for Red and wait for others to do that. Epic is beyond my budget right now, but who knows maybe I'll get a nice big project to get my teeth into that would justify the extra expense.
November 13th, 2011, 12:39 PM
Yes Alister, I think as far as 3D production is concerned, waiting is the best policy right now. I remember well the Red users constant complaints through the years about missed delivery dates and missing updates & features for the Red and Red MX and now Epic, so waiting will no doubt pay big dividends later.
On the F3 vs Scarlet front, I'd say now that the F3 for 3D has S-Log and 4:4:4 recording and a near future update for 3D camera sync, the only reason to move to Scarlet that I can discern is for clients who insist on a Red workflow, and for pure parallel shooting projects which will benefit from the 4K recordings. Otherwise, the F3 will continue to be the economical camera system of choice for small to medium (and even large) budgets for the foreseeable future. My two Red 17 - 50mm PL lenses which I use on your Hurricane Rig for 3D will fit natively on the Scarlet, but that's not yet enough of an incentive.
For 2D work, however, I'm tempted to take advantage of the pre-December 31 kit special just to have one in the kit for those Red workflow clients. For 2D work I think I can justify not waiting since the price is so affordable and Red does seem committed to not repeating too many of it's past late delivery transgressions. You don't need quite so many "future features" for 2D shooting, and the Red Scarlet name "bang" will probably get enough initial jobs to pay for it quickly.
November 13th, 2011, 03:28 PM
The price certainly is very attractive. However, I've spent my budget for this year, I just want to get the 3D kit for the F3 and I'm set for a while. It would be nice to have one to play with.
Have you seen the prototype large hoods that are floating around yet? We made a very small batch, but then re-designed them. The next few should be coming out soon, we have a 140mm aperture, lower baffle and mounting for a safety glass and depolariser. We also have gears and brackets for IA motorisation using a standard follow focus motor. I'm currently working on full remote alignment and zoom lens active compensation for the rig!
David M. Cole
November 14th, 2011, 09:12 AM
At the moment the HDSDi output on Epic is limited to 720P....
Actually, I just completed a project w/ Epics using Blackmagic Ultrastudio 3D to capture the HD-SDI. The output (using Epic Release Build) is 1080 24P. The cameras were set for 5K and the scaling into 1080 was razor sharp, with no artifacts.
November 15th, 2011, 12:00 PM
We also have gears and brackets for IA motorisation using a standard follow focus motor. I'm currently working on full remote alignment and zoom lens active compensation for the rig!
Off topic a bit, but
Just got this the other day with this text;
"Redrock Torque Motors Have Arrived"
"Introducing the Redrock Torque motors: no-compromise strength, ultra-compact design, and amazingly priced. These motors deliver the power needed to move cinema lenses, and the finesse required to focus still lenses. The Torque motors are amazingly compact and give you the freedom to place motors in more places, on more rigs and with more cameras than ever before. The microRemote system maintains compatibility with Heden digital motors for those that have already purchased Heden or want to stay with that brand. Heden are fantastic motors and we love working with them. Redrock Torque motors provide a powerful, economical option for digital motors."
Do you think it will work with your new motorization bracket? Looks to be a substantially reduced price from Heden/Preston/ type of systems. And how is that Today FIZ system coming along?
Works in conjunction with the Redrock Micro Remote system
Redrock Micro - microRemoteUpdate Page (http://store.redrockmicro.com/microremote)
No word on final release date, but soon I'm told.
November 18th, 2011, 02:21 AM
Thanks for the correct info on the SDI out David, I had to go back and question one of the guy's using Epics on our rig and it turns out the issue is that the 1080P output is 1080P and many devices don't work with 1080P as it is a non standard signal for HDSDI. Most devices need 1080PsF which is the standard for HDSDi. I'm sure that will be a very easy fix in the firmware and Red are aware of it.
Bruce: The Today FIZ system is up and running and is very nice indeed. There are 2 controller versions, a 3 channel Dual Focus and IA and an 8 Channel Focus, Zoom, Iris, IA, Convergence version. The 3 channel controller is approx $7,500. Things are moving rapidly here and we are now going with a tablet PC and bluetooth control of the rig. By using a tablet we can write scripts into the software for things like zoom shift compensation, linking focus and convergence (not that I would do that while shooting) and the overall cost is significantly lower and development time shorter. We could be looking at a price as low as $6k for focus, zoom, iris, IA, Conv and Tilt. I'd really love to be able to offer a full rig plus control kit for $15k. There will also be options for WiFi for greater range and even network control. We could even include an ultrasonic range finder to help with IA calculations and overlay rig data over the monitor feed.
November 18th, 2011, 03:15 PM
That's great news about the Today FIZ. They are all but impossible to locate on the internet, do you have a url to post for them?
Looking fwd to that unit being finished and available.
December 5th, 2011, 05:30 PM
Phillip Bloom has a pretty good breakdown of disadvantages of the Scarlett here. To buy a Scarlet or not to buy, that is the question… | Philip Bloom (http://philipbloom.net/2011/11/20/scarlet/)