I have been reading old threads off and on all day trying to find an answer to the dropped frame problem I've been having with our GL1s (we have five of them), and I can't find a definitive answer. I can shoot a tape with any of our cameras and play it back on any of the other cameras with no problems. On the rare occasions that I do have a dropped frame, it's one that's clearly on the source tape and not merely a playback issue. But when I capture with our JVC dual format MiniDV/SVHS deck, I get dropped frames like crazy, and I know they are not on the source tape because they don't appear when I shuttle frame-by-frame and they don't appear in the same places if I recapture footage with identical ins and outs.

This drives me insane and requires me to waste time recapturing on our long projects, but this week I started to wonder whether it's a general Canon compatibility issue when I did a DVD authoring job for someone who gave me source tapes made with an XL1. I then realized that a month ago I edited a project shot on an XL1s and captured with a DSR-11 and had the same type of errors. I ended up capturing from the camera because I got inconsistent dropped frames capturing from the Sony deck. This also happened to me two years ago or thereabouts with XL1 tapes and a DSR-25.

So what I'm wondering is: do Canon camcorders have compatibility issues with certain (or all) decks? Are there decks that are proven to work with Canon camcorders?

In case you're a regular on this forum let me assure you that I have read dozens of past posts about head realignment and using head cleaners, which I do. I also use only one brand of tapes (Sony Premium), and as I said, 99% of these dropped frames are not on the tape. I don't see how it could be a head alignment issue because we have five cameras and, as I said, the tapes shot on one of the cameras will play back perfectly on any of the other four. I would also have to have terrible luck with Canon cameras to have had this issue every time I've captured footage shot on a XL1 or GL1. If anyone can give me a definitive answer to this Canon-deck compatibility issue I would appreciate it. If there is no definitive answer then I would also like to know that so I can start trying the head realignment-type solutions I've found in the old threads.

Sorry, but I've been using a Panasonic mini-DV deck for years with a GL1 and XL2 and had zero problems. Absolutely never.

JVC, eh? Hmm...that's all I have to say. Hmm... :-)

Kevin

Kevin,
I'm quite aware that the JVC deck is a piece of junk, but it doesn't get dropped frames with Sony tapes shot on Sony cameras. I've also had the same problem with XL1/GL1 footage on Sony decks, and I think the DSR-25 at least is a good piece of gear. There are also loads of old threads on here about other people having the same problems. My problems only happen with Canon camcorders and never with other camcorders, and the problem is consistent across the different decks. I have never used a Panasonic deck so maybe that is the solution.

I mostly capture my XL1s tapes with a Panasonic GS200 (little 3ccd 1/6 camcorder) and before with a 4 year old 1ccd jvc cam... again, no problems, accept for some rare cases, a dropout, as is usual with minidv.

My guess is the heads are slightly out of alignment on the GL1s. Have you ever sent them in?

I capture xl1 and xl2 tapes on my DSR 11 all day long. Nary a dropped frame. Ever. Period.

Marco,
I read old posts about head alignment, and those made it sound like head alignment was specific to each camera. I got this impression because on at least two threads, someone wrote about sending in a GL1 or GL2 for head realignment and then not being able to play the tapes shot with the misaligned heads. I can change my tapes between cameras with no playback problems. Is it possible that they're all misaligned to the same degree? That seemed unlikely to me.

Richard,
I assume you are telling me that there are definintely no known compatibility issues between Canon camcorders (or at least the XLs) and Sony decks. Is this correct? I just want to know whether there is a known issue or whether I just have terrible luck. I had identical problems with the XL1s/DSR-11, XL1/DSR-25 and GL1/cheap JVC deck combinations. Before I captured footage from a Canon camera I didn't even know what a dropped frame looked like. I would believe that I have bad luck with them. All the cameras I've used are more than a year old, and not all of them had been serviced in their lifetimes. Should I assume that the problem is with my gear (i.e. all 5 of our cameras) and absolutely not with general compatibility issues?

It would be weird wouldn't it, if all five GL1s were out of alignment to the same degree as to be compatible with each other, but not with decks made by other manufacturers. It is a known problem with that camera though. We experienced it ourselves. There may have been a manufacturing quirk with the GL1 that can explain this. The model number seems to be the only common link with your problem. I can't help but wonder if it isn't related somehow.

I think (not sure) there is always much more chance on a dropout if you don't use the camera with which you filmed, then if you do, but I personally haven't yet got any problems.
It's still the best to use a cheap minidvcamcorder or a deck to capture, I suppose.

Marco, it is hard to argue with your logic. I suppose I should call Canon service and see if I can get a bulk rate for head realignments. Thanks to all of you for the replies.

I regularly capture XL1 and GL1 tapes from a Sony DHR-1000 and a Sony GV-D300 without problem. I mainly use Panasonic tape.

If all five behave the same, it is not likely a GL1 head alignment issue. But there are a couple possible issues at play.

As I recall, Canon's maybe optimized for Panasonic tape, that is the brand of the sample tapes furnished with my camcordrs. Does Panasonic brand tape give the same issues? (I assume you are using SP speed, not LP, which will be a problem)

Systems built mainly for DVCam might not work as reliably with MiniDV (DVC) format tapes due to the narrower track pitch of DVC.

Don, I do use SP speed, but I have never tried Panasonic tape with our gear. We stick to the Sony Premiums. How likely is it that switching to Panasonic tape would help? Richard, Mathieu or Kevin, if you are still reading this thread, what brand of tape do you use? You all have success with capturing Canon footage with non-Canon decks, and if you all use Panasonic (or at least not Sony) tapes then that could be the solution.

Hey Zach,
I just took a break from capturing some XL1s with my cheap panasonic nv-DS60 and as always didn't have any problems.
The only time I had problems was when I visited my parents and used my dad's dazzle connected to the s-video and out through usb to capture on a slower laptop. I normally go direct thru firewire. So I am wondering if its not the deck but the connection. Try recording back from the deck to your GL1 and see if it drops frams that way. I suppose you could even try both digital and analog and see if the same results happen. It might help you target the problem or eliminate possibilites.

Chris,
Good suggestion - thanks for that. But the connection is fine. Even the low-class JVC deck does not drop frames when I feed it Sony tapes shot on a PD-170 or even a cheap consumer camcorder. This problem happens only when I feed it source tapes made with a Canon camcorder.

Only way to determine if changing tape brand will address your issue is to try it. Maybe clean heads and then try a tape in one camcorder, and if that works, then try it in others.

Zach,

I use panny tapes now. I've used Fujiis in the past. Never used Sony tapes... once, when we sent the xl1 in for servicing, Canon SPECIFICALLY ASKED ME "Are you using Sony tapes? Because that can be a problem".

Don't know what to tell you my friend. There is some sense to the reasoning that a tape plays better on the heads it recorded from. The idea being that any 'misalignment' will match up correctly and therefore play back. The problem with re-aligning heads on a machine, is the tapes that were recorded before the correction, often fail to play back after the correction. Catch-22.

Richard,
That is EXACTLY what I needed you to tell me. I wanted to blame the Canon cameras, and it looks like my problem is the tapes. I still think head realignment is an unlikely cause because I can switch tapes between cameras, and the Sony tapes are the only constant between my dropped frame experiences with the different decks and cameras. I think once we run out our stock of Sony tapes, which is unfortunately enough to last us a couple of months, I will run head cleaners and try the Panasonics. Thanks again.

Zach...

WHOA buddy... I wouldn't take my comment as the answer. I suspect that the problem is 'overdetermined.' A little bit of this, a little bit of that...

Yes, Canon advised me against using SONY tapes. You won't find that in print anywhere however, and I suspect that there are XL2 shooters on this board that shoot with them. (I won't)

Yes, misaligned heads will cause problems when tapes are played on different machines.

Yes, more expensive machines have more exacting tollerances. It's funny, but sometimes a DVD I burn will not play on an expensive Sony player, but plays fine on the 29 dollar off-brand. This was explained to me as the cheaper player have 'looser tollerances' than the more expensive one. Same thing can happen in decks.

Give one of your Canon's a good head cleaning. Run a Panny tape through it, lots of different stuff on it. Then check for dropped frames. All you've got to loose is the price of a single panny tape. (I use the AY-DVM63PQ)

Good luck, and keep us posted.

OK, I did get a little excited there. But changing tapes is the first thing I've heard that sounds like it's definitely worth trying. It was hard for me to imagine that Canon could be incompatible with everything else, but it's not hard for me to imagine that Sony tapes are incompatible with Canon.

I already ran some dozen tapes in my XL1s, always Sony Exellence, never had a problem. The owner before me used them too, never had a problem too.