What are the current thoughts on the latest crop of small camcorders in the Pro-sumer area ?

It usually fluctuates between Sony, Canon & Panasonic, although I did see a report on a problem with continuous recording on the Panasonic when the file size reached 2Mb. and created an interruption in the recording. The things I look for, are low light performance and ease of manual settings particularly microphone level.

Any thoughts.

RonC.

Best implies a defined intended use.
How small do you need?
For what purpose and what kinds of venues; e.g., weddings, skate boarding?

In my observation the gap sometimes reported between a 2 GB file and its continuation relates to how the files are stitched together for use in a NLE. If improperly done you may see a gap.

Thanks Don. My use is for travel shooting.

At present I use a Canon HF-S10 so I'm thinking of around this size. When I travel I don't want to look like channel 9 on holiday ! - The Canon is big enough and does a great job in good light but the newer cameras are now much better in this area. Also it has easy access to manual settings for mic volume, exposure etc.

I guess I am looking at the higher end prosumer type of camera with easy manual settings.

RonC.

There are lots of choices, and no one camcorder is best for all purposes or users. Everyone has personal preferences for look, feel, controls, handling, weight, cost, etc. What works for ma may notwork for you, and few folks have tried more than a small sample of all of the camcorders on the market.

Within the Canon line (while not new in 2012) the XA10 is a nice choice with a great image and prosumer options such as XLR capability, dual AVCHD slots, a lot of internal memory, high datarate recording, Yet you can remove the handle and make it look more consumer-ish like the G10 (its little sister) when appropriate. I am pleased with it.

+1,
and if you have any accessories, you won't need to replace them

Thanks Guys. I looked at an XA-10 and it certainly looks good. Has anyone experienced it in low light situations ? I did feel that its manual settings were a bit fiddly though and not as easy as on my HF-S10.

I Guess I was hoping for an up-grade by now with a bigger sensor and easy control access but generally Canon does not seem to up grade their cameras as frequently as Sony & Panasonic.

RonC.

Sony PJ760 is superb. Check it out.

I will let you know in two weeks. I will be taking delivery of a Canon HF R300 on Monday. I will be testing it out on a trip. I bought the BP727 battery pack to supplement the standard BP709. 64GB SDXC memory card and Vello C500 L-bracket to hold a LitePanels MicroLight and RODE VideoMic Pro.

On the smaller consumer end:

96GB Full HD Camcorder with Projector | HDR-PJ760V | Sony USA (http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921666415446)

Sony Camcorders with the 'wobbly eye' stabilization - yes, when you pick it up, you think the lens is broken because it wobbles around like a 8-ball.
or
Canon G10 and such.

Both of these have great low-light capabilities (for a consumer level camcorder), excellent feature set (manual, etc.), and do the trick in a small package.

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Lower end models like the Sony CX series and Canon R series have much smaller sensors, thus far poorer low-light capabilities. They are decent in bright situations however and come in a soda can sized package.

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The 'best' AVCHD camcorder that's still quite small is the Sony VG900 4x5x9":
Sony Full Frame Interchangeable Lens Camcorder | NEX-VG900 | Sony USA (http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921666489355)

This baby has a FULL 35-mm size sensor, interchangable lenses, etc. Expect stunning DSLR like images all around!

But quite pricy.

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Besides those choices, the various DSLRs and Micro 4/3rds cameras like the Panasonic GH2, GF5, etc. are great choices. eg. The Panasonics can film for an hour non-stop, have a much bigger sensor than the 1st two camcorders listed above, do very nice AVCHD filming, and do great photography on top. The latest and greatest in their series is the GH3 - AVC Intra recording @ 70+mbps! The older GH2 can be hacked to film at 100+mbps, and do quite well in low-light:

Panasonic GH2 + Nokton 25 0.95 - low-light test - YouTube
Gh2 Color footage 10.000 ASA ISO test on Vimeo

Because of the age, the GH2 is probably the 'best' middle ground in pricing & features & low-light capabilities among these choices.

Has anyone experienced it in low light situations ?

In my opinion the XA10 does well in poor light and even has an IR option (that I have not used).

When considering low light be sure to look beyond the printed numbers. Low light performance is achieved by:
- pixel sensitivity (linked to pixel size - fewer pixels on a bigger sensor shoud be more sensitive),
- gain (more gain increases image noise cause by sensor dark current),
- shutter speed,
- aperture, and
- electronic noise reduction in the camcorders digital signal processing (that can impact effective resolution, sharpness, and introduce image artifacts).

There is no substitute for a hands on test under your own critical circumstances. There are a numebr of posts with clips and still comparisons of the XA10 to other camcorders under the same circumstances. What works well for me or someone else may not satisfy your ciritical needs.

And be sure to put the low light performance in proper perspective with the camcorders other features and your requirements. Unless you can afford to have a dedicated camcorder for every different situation it becomes a compromise to find the beast that overall best fits your needs and budget.

Sensor technology and processors have come a long way so that now small sensors can have good low-light performance (e.g., back-illumination). Consumer camcorders also have fast lenses - they can do this affordably because of the small sensor, typically f1.8 at the wide end and f4.5 at 400mm.

Here is an example of a dim-light (night) small-sensor camera video:

Sony HDR GW77 Low-Light Test Video: Chicago at Night on Vimeo

You can download the original (108060p).

And, note that you do not have the *problem* of shallow dof for scenes in dim light that you must have with fast lenses on big-sensor camcorders (putting aside the issues of aliasing and moire and lack of sharpness).

oh i love that little camera, i just got one recently - amazing pic quality for such a small form, and underwater, camcorder, low light was probably the most surprising part, can't wait to give it a real test in Caribbean :)

I can see that the overall image quality & low light performance of the GW 77 is awesome, given its size.
I'm curious what you guys think of its audio performance compared with bigger handicams like Sony CX, Canon XA10 (built in mic).
If the audio is anything close to the larger cams, I'll be sorely tempted to get one to use for travel.
Thanks

The audio is surprisingly good, with the ability to turn off agc.

Here is a brief video with an emphasis on audio, demonstrating the dynamic range most of all (from airplane engines to a soft harmonica, solo singing, chorus all outdoors, distant ship bell):

Sony HDR-GW77 Test Video: Testing the Sound Performance - YouTube (http://youtu.be/eKtZyTzl_CI?hd=1)

Select 1080p.

The video and audio are straight from the camera. The dynamic range is amazing.

Thanks Mark
That video certainly answered any questions I had about the GW 77 performance.
The cam also appears to have the "touch exposure" and "touch focus" features that I found very useful on the CX 550.
Time to place my order...

Mark, thanks to you for introducing us to what seems the quasi perfect travel video camera.
Could you provide a link to the "operation manual" of the camera I can't find it on the Sony site.

Sony eSupport - HDR-GW77V/B - Support (http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-home.pl?mdl=HDRGW77VB&template_id=1&region_id=1&tab=manuals#/manualsTab)

Mark, thank you.

How long does the battery last in this unit, when shooting continuously?

I just purchased the GW 77 a few days ago.
It looks like the battery is good for about 1 hour.
If you are out for a day's shooting, better have a couple of spares in your pocket...

Robert, I don't know if this is allowed, but where did you purchase your GW77?

Mike

Online @ B&H Photo Video

I noticed that the prices for the GW77 from a couple of online websites, has gone back up after having dropped a bit a few weeks ago. Any clue as to why the fluctuations in price?

Well, to answer my own question; who knows? I see that the price has dropped again on B&H. I am getting antsy to purchase a GW77 now.

Just noticed post number "409": Beach Boys 1963 I believe.

Sony pricing seems anomolous right now.
I just bought a a Sony CX760- It was listed on Sony site and B&H for $1,499,
It was priced @ my local Sony store for $1,299.
Since the only one they had in stock at the moment was the display case model, they sold it to me for $1,150.
I grabbed it and ran, no questions asked...

We're getting close to the end of the "model year" - probably a bit of clearing out of the product pipeline going on.

Soon we'll have "new" stuff to drool over and discuss... presuming some of these models sold well enough that they don't disappear entirely - many many changes in the marketplace, and it's going to be interesting to see which market segments warrant "new" models, or carryover (or subtle "remixing") of "last years" model.

As already mentioned "best" can vary from user to user and of course is somewhat dependent on what you're wanting from a camera.

If you also shoot stills, take a look at the DSC-RX100... almost incredibly small package, fairly large sensor, decent lens, stills are on par with an SLR in many shooting situations, and it's only a stop or two behind something like a CX/PJ series camera, less if you go to shutter priority in movie mode and adjust the shutter to 1/30 instead of 1/60. Probably the best "pocket rocket" if you shoot stills and video. Pricey for a still camera, but not so overpriced once you add in the video, which keeps up pretty well with the more expensive CX/PJ video cam offerings.

There are other P&S cameras with 60p video, but smaller chips make them a little worse off in low light... In good light, or if you pick up a little LED light for "worst case" shots, you still might find the results acceptable.

Just picked up a used PJ710 (PJ760, but without the viewfinder), the "magic eyeball" is simply incredible, and takes out wobble unbelieveably well, it's reasonably small, and handles low light nicely, it includes a couple "little" LED's that will punch out enough light to light your scene (and also blind your subject...). Not a bad little camera, typical of the upper end of the Sony consumer line.

Ultimately, you've got to decide what features you really need - weatherproof/shockproof? External mic/headphone capable? How much manual control? Do you want a "dual purpose" still/video cam, and which is most important? What if any filters/lenses/accessories do you think you need or want to use?

Lots of things to consider, and a lot of excellent choices, it's hard to buy a "bad" small HD camera, so it mainly comes down to what your personal considerations are. Or, as suggested in another thread, you could always buy an iPad or high end smartphone <wink>.... Sony is acually jamming some crazy features into "cell phone camera" sensor blocks...

Well, I guess I will wait until January to see what the price will be on the GW77. Hopefully, there will still be enough in stock at B&H or Amazon.

I believe the GW 77 was only released this last June.
If so, it probably has a while left on its product cycle.

Merry Christmas to all. Just saw that the price, from a couple of vendors, for the GW77 has dropped another $50.

Ask and ye shall receive :)

XA10 would be my pick. I've heard people complain about light sensitivity issues but I've found it to be really good for a camcorder in this class. Another cool thing about this camera is it's removable handle block assembly. Remove the handle for stealthy shooting or vacation stuff or put it back on for a nice pro B cam camcorder.

Right now it would be the 1080/p60 AVCHD 2.0 camera from Panasonic, the AG-AC90 that has 3-BSI (backside illumination sensor) and green pixel shift technology downsample from 4k, a very low noise camera in low light, along with 3 ring servo for focus, zoom and iris, or in two weeks the Canon XA25 goes on sale which finally adds AVCHD 2.0 compliant 1080/p60 in either 28 mbps AVCHD or 35 mbps AVC mp4. The Canon uses a single large 3 megapixel 1/2.84 inch CMOS sensor and rgb primary filter, high resolution EVF and OLED capacitive touch screen and removable handle.