I recently purchased the new Canon G30 as a possible replacement for my old (2009) Panasonic HMC-150. The HMC-150 was a great camera in its day, but lately I've been wondering if it's ready for retirement. I've been using the HMC-150 along with my GH3 and GH2 cameras to shoot dark, indoor concerts and I have been disappointed its sharpness, noise, and low light sensitivity when compared with these DSLRs. I thought the new G30, when coupled with my Sound Devices MixPre for XLR inputs, would be a good replacement.

Well, I did a few tests, and I was surprised by the results. First I compared the Canon's AVCHD option with its MP4 option. Then I did some side-by-side comparisons with my HMC-150. Then I lowered the light level to near-darkness and started testing gain settings. These tests are not scientific, but I think that they're still interesting. Check it out:

Canon G30 vs Panasonic HMC150... AVCHD vs MP4 - YouTube

Interesting. Two things stand out:to my eyes.

The Canon looks sharper.
There is a decided white balance difference (canon much warmer) but which is more accurate.

Bottom line is which gives a better end product once edited to the final deliverable format.

I have discovered that the G30 low light scene selection makes a big difference in noise levels. I haven't analyzed that scene mode to see what settings it picks, but the decrease in noise levels is quite pronounced.
You may have selected that scene mode in your test. If not I would try it to see if it improves the G30 image.
It may not be a real apples to apples test against the other camera however.

As for myself, it is a relief to find that the G30 has the ability to create good low light clips even if it is by selecting a "scene mode" which I ordinarily shun.

Interesting. Two things stand out:to my eyes.

The Canon looks sharper.
There is a decided white balance difference (canon much warmer) but which is more accurate.

Bottom line is which gives a better end product once edited to the final deliverable format.

The Panasonic's WB was set to 5600K while the Canon's WB was set to "cloudy". It wasn't until after shooting that I realized that I could have set the Canon to a specific Kelvin Temp too. That might have helped match the colors.

But these tests weren't about color temp, which can be easily fine tuned in post. It's much harder to remove a lot of noise in post.

I have discovered that the G30 low light scene selection makes a big difference in noise levels. I haven't analyzed that scene mode to see what settings it picks, but the decrease in noise levels is quite pronounced.
You may have selected that scene mode in your test. If not I would try it to see if it improves the G30 image.
It may not be a real apples to apples test against the other camera however.

As for myself, it is a relief to find that the G30 has the ability to create good low light clips even if it is by selecting a "scene mode" which I ordinarily shun.

That's good to know. I would have included a test using the Low Light Scene Mode. I just took a quick look at that setting and it looks like it does reduce the noise, but at the expense of sharpness. But maybe that's an OK trade off.

However, in that Scene Mode you can't control iris, shutter, white balance, or gain. It's all set to automatic. So I wouldn't use it in a professional setting for that reason alone.

Thanks for posting. Looks like the Canon is pretty light challenged. The HMC-150 has decent, normal pro light gathering abilities (nothing crazy) and the Canon needed 12db of gain just to equal the exposure. I can not see using the Canon for anything like a wedding etc...

I would say that the HMC-150 is a keeper.

I am not a professional so it's out of my price range.

Does the G30 share the same sensor as the XA20? I remember the HMC 150 that I had as being decent in low light, but I felt the FX1000 beat it. However, the HMC gave cleaner images at the higher gain settings.

I feel that my XA20 would be very competitive with the HMC150 low light, so if the G30 has the same sensor, your test proves that there is much more to a camera's low light ability than then sensor. I would love to put up my XA20 against the FX1000 or HMC150 just to see what's what.

Thanks for sharing, very interesting video.

I would like to see that test Jeff. Sensitivity is the main reason I have taken this camera out of my view.

Canon has made it clear that the three models have the same sensor. I always expect the "pro" models to offer more. It would be interesting to actually see if it is true.

The light gathering at 0 db would need to match the HMC-150 for me to consider these cameras.

Here's an example of some "normal everyday" usage of the G30. I used it to shoot my son's birthday.

The camera settings were 1080 24p MP4 24Mbps f5.6 1/48th ND1/8 5600K Dynamic IS Instant.AF with Face Detection. Audio was set to Automatic.

The first few shots are on a tripod and then everything else is handheld. The dynamic range is limited and it was a sunny day, so I exposed for faces and let the highlights get blown out around the edges. About halfway through the video I attempt a steadycam shot by holding the camera with my arm fully extended down by my thigh as I walk towards a subject and then away. I thought that the Dynamic IS and Face Detection worked pretty well with that shot. But other shots the Face Detection was slow and soft focus. Perhaps it was because I was stopped down to f5.6. Perhaps if I had a 6-stop ND filter on then I could open up to f2.8 and get shallower focus which may help with the Instant.AF.

Note: in Manual mode when stopping down the aperture, once you get to f4 the camera automatically holds the iris there while engaging the ND filters, first 1/2 then 1/4 and finally 1/8, before allowing the aperture to stop down any further. That's why the addition of a 6-stop ND filter to a f5.6 + ND1/8 iris would allow the iris to open up to f2.8.

The video looks less sharp to me compared to my initial dark room tests. Even when locked off on a tripod I don't see the sharp edges and detail that I expected to see. Perhaps this is because of the ND1/8 filters. Or perhaps the Instant.AF is subtly hunting throughout each shot so nothing is every truly in focus.

Another thing that let me down was the variable speed zoom rocker. I tried to get a slow steady zoom near the beginning of the video but the speed was jerky. I've never had such troubles maintaining a steady zoom on a variable rocker with my HMC150. Perhaps the G30 requires more practice. Perhaps I got a bad apple.

Here you go, in all its little kid home video glory:

Kona's 4th Birthday - YouTube

If you go to the slashcam site below, and select the G30 vs the HMC-150, there is a much less dramatic difference between the cameras than you experienced Ben, but I don't know how they conduct their tests. If you choose the XA-10 vs the HMC-150, the XA-10 beats the 150 at 12 lux, which is what I would expect.

I have edited footage with the XA10 shot along side the FX1 and the FX1000 at a wedding, and the XA-10 was superior to the FX1000 in low light, and it beat the FX1 handily.

The XA-20 is superior in low light to the XA-10 in my limited experience. I have no doubt the XA-20 would beat out the HMC-150 in low light. Why the G30 in your test performed so badly is the question to ask. The G30's sensor is a new product. It cannot be all hype. Or can it be? Would Canon release a $1700 consumer cam that performs this poorly in low light? It's possible but I find it hard to believe.

I have a friend with an FX1000, which is in the same league as the HMC-150. I'll see if we can run the cams (XA10 and XA20 vs FX1000) side by side and see what happens.

Camcorder test charts comparison (http://camcorder-test.slashcam.com/campair-EN.shtml)

I also use Slashcam to compare various cameras before purchasing them. That site helped me choose between the HMC150 and the Sony AX2000 back in 2009.

The 12 Lux frame grab comparison between the HMC150 and G30 on the Slashcam site shows a marked difference in favor of the HMC150. Look in the shadows of the plastic pine needles and plastic fern. The HMC150 is brighter. And the sharpness looks about equal too. Is that because of the low light level? I don't know how they test their cameras, but I would hope that they try to keep it fair and balanced.

(brief aside: I noticed that in those 12 Lux frame grabs from the HMC150 and the G30 that the lighting and framing seems different. Look at the highlights on the rainbow colored plastic spears hanging from the top of the frame. In the HMC150 frame grab there are no highlights, but in the G30 frame grab they there are. Did the lighting change since they tested the HMC150 in 2008? What about the different framing?)

With the G30 I was so certain that it would be an improvement over my old HMC150 that I took a leap of faith and pre-ordered it back in May. Which is why I'm so disappointed now. I'm certain that my tests were fair and balanced. Now the question I ask is did I get a bad apple? Maybe, but I doubt it, and I'd feel foolish to try again with another G30 only to confirm what seems obvious to me now. Which is why I'm returning the G30 and sticking with my HMC150 for now.

Frankly, I think that I'm spoiled with the image quality from my hacked GH2 and GH3 cameras. When compared to them my HMC150 looks soft and dark, but maybe I shouldn't be comparing a camcorder with 5-year old technology with a current DSLR.

Comparing a consumer 1-chip camcorder to a professional 3-chip product that listed for 2x the price is always a bit dicy.

Another potential issue is comparing a camcorder one has lived with for several years to one fresh out of the box may not be totally objective. Some of the differences may relate to how well the tester knows each camcorder and how to extract max performacne from it.

This test video was never about how to get the most impressive image quality out of the G30. I'm sure that with the right lighting and subject matter this camera can make great video. This test was only about comparing the G30's low light image quality with that of the HMC150's. And you're right, in a way it doesn't make sense comparing these two cameras as they are designed for different filmmakers.

I hate to think I paid so much(to me) for the G30 if it is in some way deficient. I'm not a pro, but I do desire quality output from whatever camera I use. When I use the low light scene mode I get very good video in a dark room. Compared to NOT using low light scene mode it is remarkably good.

This may be a dumb question but....
Is there a way to determine what the camera actually used for settings when I used the low light scene mode?

What I am trying to make sense of is how users of the G10 and XA-10 for the most part had relatively few complaints on the low light ability of the cams, at least around here. The G30 is a newer sensor, advertised to be better in low light, and we're seeing these complaints, so I'm intrigued by this.

Please keep posting and keep us informed of your findings.

What I am trying to make sense of is how users of the G10 and XA-10 for the most part had relatively few complaints on the low light ability of the cams, at least around here. The G30 is a newer sensor, advertised to be better in low light, and we're seeing these complaints, so I'm intrigued by this.

My only complaint is that it's noisier and darker than my HMC150. I'm guessing that most G10 owners and XA-10 owners don't have an HMC150 to compare to, so they wouldn't complain.

I'm thinking particularly of DSLR users who use the cameras. I for one use the XA-10 and XA-20 with the GH2 and they match up amazingly well. Not perfect, mind you, and the differences in low light can be significant, but it's easy to cut them together.

Based on your tests I'd dump the camera for sure, it's just weird that it's so bad in low light.

I have used the G10 since it came out and I LOVE it, but I am not a pro.
always thought it has great low light capabilities

I hated the lack of 50p [and still do!], and now I am tempted to pull the trigger even almost for that improvement, but I still wonder, especially after reading threads like this, if the G30 is really that much better than the G10?

the are out of stock in minutes here in the UK, so commercially Canon seems to have made a good effort, but I wonder if you do see the actual difference in the footage.
the G30 is also a bit bulkier, reportedly, so it really needs to be quite a lot better than the G10 for me to justify the jump

[by the way I am not a pro, but I have a 5D mkII, and had a few fine camcorders in the past, including the Sony Z1, and the Sony EX1r]

Federico,
Hopefully there will be a professional review of the G30 in the not too distant future in which a good evaluation of the low light capabilities of the G30 will be shown. The OP of this thread is concerned with comparing it to the higher end Panasonic camera, and in that comparison it's no wonder that the G30 loses.

I have both the G10 and the G30(the latter I have only had for about a week), but I am not very good at testing cameras for public consumption. All I can give is my subjective view regarding the comparison of these two cameras. My primary use of video cameras is for recording our visits to the National Parks in the U.S. The work I produce is just simply videos for my family and friends, but I have a high expectation for the quality of videos that I make, and I use a slider and jib to make the work as professional as I can.

I favor the extended range of the G30 in addition to the other improvements, because I also shoot as much wildlife as I can. It is in using the telephoto capability of the G30 that I find the greatest advantage in using the G30 in low light situations. I have compared the G10 and G30 as far as low light noise, and if you stay in the wide angle portion of the lens, they are very much the same to my eye. I have discovered that the G30's 2x option for digital zoom is really pretty good even though I know it is cropping the image(I think). Now of course the G10 also allows me to crop with digital zoom to give a telephoto effect, but the resulting image is pretty much crap. I think this goes without saying.

One thing I must say in my use of these cameras is that I do use the low light scene mode if the light is very very dim. I use it in the G10 as well as the G30. It decreases the noise level tremendously. I have not advanced to the point that I can duplicate the result by using manual mode and selecting whatever parameters needed to give such a low noise good quality video. Hopefully I will be able to in the future. One other thing I must mention is that in low light scene mode the frames per second is reduced and the video will have a stuttery look when panning. This is a result that I really dislike, but for most of my purposes it is a small problem since my family and friends don't seem to care.

Another thing I really like about the G30 is the additional programmable buttons. These make it quick to change vital settings in the heat of action when it is not good to have to go into menus too deeply and take ones eye off of whatever is happening in front of you.

Like you, I struggled with whether or not the cost benefit of the G30 is enough to justify the purchase, and I still wonder if I should send it back and buy a cheaper camera with telephoto capabilities, and just keep using my G10. My latest feeling is that the G30 has enough advantage over the G10 to keep it and sell the G10. However, if the Panasonic Fz200 had a lanc input for smooth zoom control I would probably go with it, and use the G10 for low light landscape stuff and family videos. That would save me about $1100.



As it is, I can now just carry the G30 instead of two or three cameras.

If anyone is interested in comparing the G10 with the G30 then here's a website that does it for you. It has a long list of different camera comparisons. The site is German but it's easy to understand most of the comparison qualities. Just select multiple cameras from the list and then click the "Anzeigen" button to compare them.

Camcorder Test und Vergleich mit Testbildern und technischen Daten (http://www.camcorder-test.com/)

Comparing the G10 and G30 using this site I see that the G30 and G10 are virtually identical when it comes to sharpness, noise, and low light sensitivity. So if you absolutely need 50p then maybe the G30 is worth the cost. But otherwise maybe not.

I'm thinking particularly of DSLR users who use the cameras. I for one use the XA-10 and XA-20 with the GH2 and they match up amazingly well. Not perfect, mind you, and the differences in low light can be significant, but it's easy to cut them together.

Just out of curiosity what lenses do you typically use with your GH2? Is it hacked and if so then with which patch?

I love my hacked (Flowmotion v.2) GH2 but I love my GH3 even more. With the Lumix 20mm, Olympus 45mm, or Voigtlander 25mm I get exceptional images out of them both. Now I wish that I'd done a quick comparison between the G30 and my GH3. But then again, that might be just a silly waste of time considering how different the two cameras are and how different their respective filmmakers are.

Oly 12mm Pana 25mm and Oly 45mm.

I have Canon HF G10, HF G25 and Legria HF G30. The nicest things with the G30 compared to the others is the abscense of aliasing (jaggies) when filming cars and ceilings, rooftops. The 20X zoom is also worth the upgrade.
I guess the aliasing was due to 50i<24Mbps. With the HF G30 I have only tested 1080/50p 28Mbps AVCHD.

My only complaint is that it's noisier and darker than my HMC150...

That may account for the difference in sharpness. One can often reduce image noise at the expense of apparent image sharpness.

Low light programs generally use slower shutter (adds noise), wider aperture, and gain (adds noise). And the in camera digital signal processing may add noise reduction that often reduces sharpness and/or adds some motion artifacts to the video.

Ultimately the criteria is what kind of image can you obtain from the camcorder when all is said, edited, and done.

Gain is relative to the baseline selected for the specific camcorder at hand. While one may expect film to give the same result with the same aperture and shutter, that may not apply to video cameras. In digital still cameras instead of setting gain we select the ISO.

Bottom line is if you are satisfied with the images you camcorder gives you, forget the numbers and enjoy.

I have Canon HF G10, HF G25 and Legria HF G30. The nicest things with the G30 compared to the others is the abscense of aliasing (jaggies) when filming cars and ceilings, rooftops. The 20X zoom is also worth the upgrade.
I guess the aliasing was due to 50i<24Mbps. With the HF G30 I have only tested 1080/50p 28Mbps AVCHD.

what about shooting MP4 vs AVCHD (in case you have managed to test this by now)? any advantages when editing?

Benjamin, to address your original topic, which was poor low light performance with the G30, I do have something to add.

Last night, I went manual with my XA-20 in a well lit room. I set the exposure to F/1.8 and gain to 0. The image was dark, just as you demonstrated. It made no sense that the camera would produce such a "dark" image in a well-lit room.

I increased gain to 9db and it was fine. I was also able to get it by slowing shutter speed, but then I had the jerkiness associated with too slow shutter speed. I have to agree with you, it seems wrong. It was too well-lit of a room for the image to be as dark as it was.

I do not understand this phenomenon.

Don, in his wisdom, is correct in his post above. How it the camera acquires it's images is not as important as whether the images are good enough to work with.

I am disappointed in a number of things about this camera, which can only be rectified by accepting the limitations it has, or by going big with a truly pro model such as the XF100. I am choosing to stay with this camera. It has a 20X zoom, and other features that are simply too good for me to pass up for my use, and on my budget.

I wouldn't mind 9dB of gain. That's pretty low and clean looking, even on the HMC-150. But the G30 that I had needed 12dB of gain just to match the image quality of my HMC-150 at 0dB of gain. I purchased the G30 because I expected it to have more light sensitivity than my old HMC-150. When I discovered that it did not, then I returned it.

And I was doing those tests at 1/48th shutter speed. That's about as slow as you can get away with when shooting performances, unless you want the "slow shutter look" with its blurry movements and light trails.

This may be a dumb question but....
Is there a way to determine what the camera actually used for settings when I used the low light scene mode?

I have the same question, Tom. :)

Deb