Hello all... just a curious survey... how many of us are still shooting on tape? I am still shooting DVCAM for my SD events, and HDV on my XH-A1s for HD events.... Every time I think about a tapeless workflow, I get hung up on the archive aspect... I like to keep my footage basically indefinately... ie if I took the time to shoot it then its worth something to save it...

Sure I can shoot tapeless , copy it to hard drives ,but for REAL long term storage , then I would need to roll it out to LTO or SDLT backup, and then I ask... why not just start with tape in the first place? :)

thanks all

David,
I don't shoot any tape these days but agree with your understanding of long term storage. LTO seems to be the answer but no one really wants to pay for it very often. I think Sony also has something going on with Blu Laser disks but still costly when shooting terabytes of material for a project.

Hi Dave,

Still using 2 HDV cameras, but have rented and borrowed AVCHD cameras on several occasions, and also have access to an Atomos Ninja 2 unit sometimes that can be used for recording longer stage events.

I agree, digital tape is great for archiving! I recently started capturing all of my old family miniDV tapes going back 15 years, all playing perfectly. Can't imagine having only the hard drive files this entire time, and trying to keep them SAFELY backed up to multiple drives and moving to NEW drives every few years since we all know that drives just don't last indefinitely. Ugh.

At least with my weddings and events, once the edit is delivered and approved, I don't need to keep the originals and those tapes gets re-purposed. But certainly there is a lot of footage that I do want/need to keep and when I move to tapeless cameras, that will be a challenge requiring some discipline and a change of workflow. I've been moving my hundreds of DV tapes from box to box and room to room around the house for years, knowing they are always there if and when I need them. Can't say the same for my old data files.

Thanks

Jeff Pulera

I still shoot on DV and HDV tape, though I can and do go tapeless via FireWire and HDMI (different cameras).

Archiving is also the main reason I haven't gone over, much as I liked the Canon XF-305. I feel I have enough problem with archiving audio files on hard drives (I like to have several copies on different drives just in case) but at least the file sizes for 16 and 24 bit audio are manageable.

I have also shot to hard drive, then archived to DV or HDV tape. :-)

I have an HDV camera but shoot to a recorder rather than tape. I made the decision to go away from tape. I only archive the finished product, not the cutting room floor.

More than I would have guessed... :) yeah I considered the new 100gb BD writer that Lacie has... But again at (last time I checked)!$70 per disc it's not very enticing....

I am guessing my next move would be some sort of flash recorder that I can use with my XHA1S, etc.

Thanks all for the replies

I wonder how much longer DVCAM and dv tapes will be manufactured...?

Colin...I agree with you and I can say that IF I go tapeless it will be the Canon XF300 ....

I still use my tape based cameras but hardly ever use tape now. I've got an unwieldy pile of cards which require me opening a spreadsheet to find out what's on them and the pile of hard drives is growing. I suppose we just have to get used to losing the convenience - but - I do have some old tapes that won't play, I note! Something that will get worse. The time it would take to copy these before they die is scary!

I use a Canon HV40 as a backup camera, but have moved to all digital.

I shoot with a Sony NX5 and Canon XA20 and also a GoPro sometimes. They all use SD media cards which are relatively affordable and I have about 20 of them in my drawer here.

I buy new ones as they fill up, and then also keep the files I need on a 2TB drive in my computer, which is backed up nightly to a 4TB Seagate that I got on sale for $150.

I should add, I've been tapeless more or less since Feb 2011 and my 2TB HD has about 500 GB space left. Eventually I'll have to add another one or clean out some folders and files... I'll probably do that first actually.

Still shoot on tape using my old trusty Z1 when I can. For any HD job I'll hire a cam to suit.
Tapes from 20 odd years ago still play with no problems, always used new tapes and keep them in a dry environment.

Even though my main camera is the XF305, the HV30 still gets pressed into service frequently, especially if I'm out with my 7D kit. It's such a small camera with excellent looking video. I have the XL-H1A also. I will keep it until I can get something better with interchangeable lenses. With the 6X wide angle HD lens the image is really nice. For long distance work, the 1.4x extender + 100-400mm EF lens can get me there. I also have an older Panasonic AG-DVC30 (1/4" CCD sensor(s?). It only shoots SD, but is great quality gear, and has the IR modes too.

I had trouble with dropped frames when capturing HDV at first, but once I upgraded to a Sager laptop, I've never had another dropped frame. For a little future-proofing, I got a CF-based recorder with the firewire input (Focus FS-CF). Works good, but don't intend to use it much until I really need to.

I only shoot on new Sony HDV tapes. They're still available around here, but never see a price drop.

I need to recapture all my tapes and do a proper indexing.

It's been over a year since I got the XF305 and I have to admit, I don't like the workflow for transferring the files off the CF cards using Canon's XF Utility program. I don't like to be interrupted when transferring a card. Afraid I'll mix up my cards and format the one I haven't downloaded yet. Hasn't happened yet, but came close once or twice. Unnerving man.

Mark

After many years of using various tape formats , miniDV for the last 15 years or so , I experimented with file based acquisition and found it to be a PITA .

Hence , I have gone over to HDV tape and have my familiar and reliable workflow back , without needing an expensive computer upgrade .

I'm still using my two HDV cameras, an XH-A1S and the older XH-A1, but haven't used a tape in several months. Now I just use two DataVideo DN-60 recorders with CF cards.

My workflow HDV workflow is the same as it was with tapes, except I now copy files from the cards instead of capturing tapes. Copying 2 hours 24 minutes of footage from a 32 gig CF card takes 20 minutes.

I handle the clip naming in Avid, and all the bins etc. the same as I did with tape. I treat clips from a single CF card the same as I did from a single tape.

For example 20140313A1001 would be clip 1, card 1, from camera A, recorded today. Old method was exactly the same, just substitute tape for card.

As for shooting, I've experienced far fewer glitches (nearly zero!) with the cards than with tape. No dropouts whatsoever. No missed shots from waiting for tape to come up to speed or from being in the middle of changing tapes etc. The rare glitches from the card are sort of operator error or quirks of not exactly using the system the way it was designed to be used.

After many years of using various tape formats , miniDV for the last 15 years or so , I experimented with file based acquisition and found it to be a PITA .

Hence , I have gone over to HDV tape and have my familiar and reliable workflow back , without needing an expensive computer upgrade .

Hoots mon, another McLuddite on DVinfo! "Ye'll have used yir tape, Dougal!"

(Actually, I use new ones - still have a good supply).

I still use my VX2000 for the archival videos I shoot for a local theater group. So I buy Panasonic PQ tapes as I always have. I also have an EX1 and I have to say, the VX2000 is more user friendly. I also like that I can store the tapes unlike the EX1 where I have to store the footage on hard drives. Then if I need them again I have to convert the raw footage first before I can edit it.

John

Lots of responses... like I said , still use my DVCAM camera for SD shoots.. (DSR-250) , but everything else is HDV , between my Canon XL-H1A, and XH-A1S. All tape.
I have really been thinking lately about the Firestore unit , but for every positive comment about it I see a negative... guess I will just have to try it maybe... This summer its a choice between that and possibly upgrading to an SD camera.

I am still hoarding tapes when I see them, use Panasonic AMQ, MQ , along with Sony DVCAM, and Sony Digital Master, (for the really important stuff) .... Knock on wood I have not seen a dropout in a long time... BUT as I say this I had one in the middle of a theatre show I shot last week... which is another reason why I usually tape two nights... :)

Roger - sounds like you have had really good luck with the DN-60's ?
Are they fussy about what cards you use ?
thanks all .

I'm looking forward to getting my PMW-300 and leaving tape behind. I'm so over HDV playback glitches.

That said, I'll still be using the Sony V1 cameras on occasion as a friend and myself have about four of these when pooled together, and this makes it easier for a multi-camera shoot when you want all camera colour to be matched to start with. Plus, the clarity of the image I get from these cams is pretty amazing.

Andrew

I can only tell you my experience.

I used to shoot with a PD150. I have boxes full of tapes for archive purposes. Each 1 hour tape holds
about 13 gigs of video once you dump it to harddrive.

Now I shoot with a Sony FS700 and Sony VG20. You can shoot about 1 1/2 hours of HD video
on a 16 gig card. I bought an internal Blu Ray burner for my MacPro. After shooting footage,
if it is footage I would like to save, I archive it, using Toast, to a Blu Ray Disk. Each disk holds
25 gigs of footage. I buy blank, ink jet printable Blu Ray disks off of Amazon for about $1 each.
I use Toast to make a data disk, so that the footage is not compressed from the native footage.
Then I use Disc Cover software to print on the face of the Blu Ray disk, with the description of
footage that is on that disk. Next I have a few of the 150 DVD wallets that I store my Blu Ray disks in.
When I need to use archive footage, I just flip through the wallet and look on the face of the disks.
When I find what I need, I pop the disk in the drive and copy it over to my work RAID.
It takes up about 1/4 as much space as my tapes did, for much better quality. I have been doing
this for a couple years now with no problems. Can't swear to how it will work long term, but
seems to be great so far. Some people say that the disks won't hold up over time, but I have
noticed they are much more resistant to scratches then regular DVD's. Plus I keep them in a DVD
wallet until I need to use the footage.

At risk of devolving in to an archiving discussion, I just want to mention that I am now archiving to two physical hard drives (master and slave). If one drive should die on the shelf, at least I have the other one.

Andrew

Lots of responses... like I said , still use my DVCAM camera for SD shoots.. (DSR-250) , but everything else is HDV , between my Canon XL-H1A, and XH-A1S. All tape.

Roger - sounds like you have had really good luck with the DN-60's ?
Are they fussy about what cards you use ?
thanks all .

I've had really good results with the DN-60s, except a 400X 32GB card from Silicon Power always failed recording during tests at around the 1 hour mark. The timecode stopped increasing on the display of the unit. So I don't use that card. And I decided to stick with cards on the manufacturer's list.

The DN-60s come with a free SanDisk 30MB/s 200X 16GB card. And I bought four SanDisk Extreme 60 MB/s cards and have NEVER had a problem with any of them. While I still have a good stockpile of tapes, right now they are just sitting there in case I ever need them. I always have a tape handy to pop in the camera if the DN-60 starts acting up, plus I usually have two cameras rolling when I work.

To power the DN-60s I use the PowerEX 2700 NIMH rechargeable AA batteries. They easily give four hours of continuous use. On my typical shoots, they last all day. I also bought a charger that lets me charge 8 batteries at a time. Of course, these batteries are great in all the other gear I have that uses AA batteries, my Zoom H4N, the flash unit on my DSLR, wireless transmitters and receivers, etc.

Tomorrow, I have a free day and will take five of the batteries and try them in one of my Z96 LED lights and see how long they last. So getting the DN-60s has led to a number of direct and indirect improvements in my workflow and costs of doing business.

I'm looking forward to getting my PMW-300 and leaving tape behind. I'm so over HDV playback glitches.

That said, I'll still be using the Sony V1 cameras on occasion as a friend and myself have about four of these when pooled together, and this makes it easier for a multi-camera shoot when you want all camera colour to be matched to start with. Plus, the clarity of the image I get from these cams is pretty amazing.

Andrew

I've had my V1e for a couple of months now , and shot maybe a couple of dozen tapes in it .

I have only experienced ONE dropout : that was on the very first tape that I used several times over while just playing about with the camera , and had passed that segment of tape ( almost at the beginning ) several times through .

I always use virgin Panasonic tapes , which I still have a good stock of , and have never experienced one glitch on an actual job .

I wore out my Canon XH-G1's. Shot a lot of Green screen via HDSDI and converted to Cineform. Archived everything to hard drives (they're cheap). I had drawers full of hard drives, including boxes full of HDV tapes.

Much your decision will depend on what you shoot and how long you need to archive it.

Properly stored, a tape will last about ten years, and a drive about half that time, (the Western Digital's are best. Had a few Seagates fail within three). Rarely have I ever needed to access anything older than 3 years, (most of my projects had a life no longer than two before the product changes and a re-shoot was required, anyway).

I also make it a habit to collect and archive re-useable clips onto a separate drive that I spin up often and replace before its warranty expires. I've also kept some clips on a server, archived via Cumulus (DAM). Finally, our Traffic Coordinator would stuff a DVD of the final edit (minus titles) into the project folder for offsite storage. Of the hundreds of projects I've shot in the last ten years, I can only remember one time having to call the archival house to retrieve media.

I've shot XDCam with another firm as a sub and liked the tape-less process, (no more lengthy capture sessions). So, I'm looking into the Canon XF's and throwing Adobe Prelude into the pipe.

Despite all this, HDV still has it's place and I'm holding onto my Sony HC1 in case someone hands me HDV media to capture. If you still have decent working HDV cameras, I see no need to switch just yet, but I do feel that the digital process has matured enough to be found reliable.

Still use an XLH1 with a nano flash and HDV for back up. I still archive the nano flash footage to hard disk, though I have had 2 hard drives fail on me.

Interested to see this new archive option next year (1 TB bluray disks that last a minimum of 50 yrs):

Sony, Panasonic develop 300GB to 1TB 'Archival Disc' for 50 year-plus storage | PCWorld (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2106260/sony-panasonic-develop-300gb-optical-discs-for-enterprise-storage.html)

Hopefully that BluRay drive hardware/format will also last that long.

Andrew

I have a BMCC but still use my JVC HD110 a lot. I haven't wanted to spend the money for a real video lens to fit the BMCC. Still using the original Fujinon lens on the JVC. Everything I do gets rendered at 720P so the JVC is still just fine and the Fujinon lets me do nice zooms while taping. Just can't see getting rid of the JVC setup any time soon. I think I'll order a couple of more packs of 50 tapes just in case. (I still use film for most of my still cameras too)

Having said all that, I just got an Atomos Ninja to use with the JVC. I had an old Firestore, but just never really trusted it. I plan to still record to tape as well as feed the signal to the Ninja - I like having extra copies for safety! Don't have enough experience with the Ninja yet to know if I love it or not, but it's certainly better than the Firestore.

Re archiving, I'm thinking of getting an LTO system one of these days - there's nothing else even close for real archive. I say that having been closely involved with the development and manufacturing of LTO drives since they first came out. I wouldn't trust any kind of burned optical disc as an archive copy of anything important.

Despite all this, HDV still has it's place and I'm holding onto my Sony HC1 in case someone hands me HDV media to capture. If you still have decent working HDV cameras, I see no need to switch just yet, but I do feel that the digital process has matured enough to be found reliable.

I still have a unused Sony fx1000 here, it belonged to my father who passed away last year, I have been trying to sell it but am not getting any response, guess tape camera's have had their time. It is still a very decent camera with good low light performance but I can't think of where I might use it myself. All of my current camera's are dslr's and there are occasions where I would benefit from using that fx1000, I only don't want to go back to hdv tapes and endless capturing, spending hundreds of dollars on a external recorder is also a bit overkill for this already aging camera, would rather spend that on a extra lens.

The HDMI output on that camera is your best asset. Record out to a Ninja, and you can always run tape as a backup.

You may well find that the quality of the output, when the HDV compression stage is bypassed, is excellent if not stunning. This has been my experience with the Sony V1.

Andrew

i still have 2 major clients who demand tape (they both simply archive it, but they've both been bitten by the bad hd bug at some stage so....)

i shoot with a z5, v1, and ah1, thought with the z5 i have a mkcr cf card recorder which i use for all other shoots (that said, i still run a tape as well - simplest archiving i know of ;-))

i'm just wondering what tape cameras are left in the market - i know the z5 is, but what about any thers, jvc for instance?

Having said all that, I just got an Atomos Ninja to use with the JVC. I had an old Firestore, but just never really trusted it. I plan to still record to tape as well as feed the signal to the Ninja - I like having extra copies for safety! Don't have enough experience with the Ninja yet to know if I love it or not, but it's certainly better than the Firestore.

Hijack coming up - I still have two 110's that I really like, but didn't realise the Ninja 2 worked on JVC - I made the mistake on the Firestore of buying a Panasonic one, and discovering it was ONLY Panasonic.

I'm still using tape, or direct into my macbook - which works well when on a tripod, but the Ninja looks very interesting!

Still using tape here on my Z1's, would hate the thought of not being able to go back to my archived footage.

I guess the day is coming very soon when I'll have no choice but, happy with tape for now.

Have pretty much switched to AVCHD for acquisition. On occasion I might still shoot some HDV but rarely. Still have players for S-VHS/VHS, Hi8/8mm, DV, Digital-8, MiniDisc, HDV, and of course card readers (SD, SDHC, CF, etc.) for I don't know how many different formats. (Sadly I loaned my VHS-C adapter a while ago and never got it back - and I forget who borrowed it.)

Tapeless is a big time saver for me. Much of the stuff I shoot for others need not be archived for more than a year or so.

All computer storage is subject to loss (drive crash, disc dye aging, trashed FAT, physical abuse, accidential overwrite, etc.). Multiple backups on different media is abotu the best bet. The issue will be will youhaev a way to read it 20 or 30 years from now. How many folks still have a working 8-track player, or Beta, or can read data on a 5.25" floppy, or 20 MB ST225 MFM hard drive, or even their Zip discs from 10 years ago. Even commercial/industrial gear can have issues - e.g., my 1996 vintage AG1980 has failing electrolytic capacitors, it needs about $50 of repair parts and many hours of work (just waiting for me to have some free time).

Tape does have a long life. I have VHS tape shot 35+ years ago and audio tape from 50+ years ago that play OK.

All of my shooting is done tapeless these days but for my line of work, we back everything up to DVCPro religiously at the end of every night. Archiving is a huge part of the sports world.

Events/production less than 30 minutes: DSLR (MOV files)
Events up to 60 minutes: AVCHD on SD cards (MRC1 recorder on my Sony Z5)
Events over 60 minutes: Tape with backup/tape change footage on MRC1.

AVCHD files over 4GB sometimes get wonky in my edit timeline, but that never happens with .m2ts files from digitized tape.

Yes! I not only shoot on tape but in SD to boot. Why? Because I've discovered that apart from camera manufactures, boffins, distributers and the odd corporate body, not many people give a rat's bottom about HD. The old XL2, XLH1 and I just press on regardless. I haven't bought into the hype that you must progress and keep up with it all, therefore not having to spend megabucks in the process. A great advantage is a newer dedicated computer with a fresh install of Windows XP, disconnected from the internet, no virus scanner or fire walls, no confounded updates. XP hums along at great speed.

Modern technologies are wonderful. But to be adicted to the latest, may not be in the best interest to all. I am pleased I live in a throw away society though as there is plenty of good gear at really low prices.

I have a large music collection as well. A reasonable part of it is on 78rpm records up to 90yrs old, and it still plays fine.

Anyone remember film? I shot plenty of that, stills and 8mm movie 55yrs ago. The cameras and projectors still work.

I wonder if DVD's and cards will.

Hi Owen... same as you I am still using my XL2 , (SD 16x9 shoots) and my XL-H1A for hdv shoots...
I still do a number of shows a year in SD.

Although I have just picked up a Canon XF-100 in mint shape , so have been experimenting with that...

Once in a while I still use the good old Panasonic SDX-900 & DVCPRO 50 tape! I have been erasing that tape at least 15-20 times already and it's pretty clean (no drop outs). That camera produces wonderful 8-bit 4:2:2 images. And in low light, it beats my HPX3100 & other HD 2/3" cams by about 2 stops. That's huge thing when you are doing all-natural light docs. Unfortunately it's still 480i/p. Still have tape deck and haven't abandon it completely.

But for more advanced multi-cam productions with constant start/stop, tape is not good. The tape deck has to constantly seek and search to capture the proper TC. Capturing a DVCPRO tape w/ 33 min can take up to 90-100 min. This is where memory based format has a huge advantage. Another issue w/ tape is trying to get past customs in 3rd world country. I rather carry two 5 Tb hdds than 100-200 DVCPRO 66 m tapes. Oh boy. I recall the early 2000s w/ Sony HDCAM tapes. It was horrendous. Had to dedicate just a suite case just for those big 1/2" tapes. Now pretty much I have three-four 5 Tb hdds taking up significantly less than 2.5 HDCAM 40 min tapes.

I just dumped 100s of DV/HDV tapes in the garbage last week. 10+ years of tape. Only saving personal recordings and those, i'm highly unlikely to ever delve into . . . onward and upward. Tape is a hassle. So is maintaining digital archives but you can't beat the instant access.

Owen and Dave, you confirmed that I'm still OK shooting to tape, like some of the others. With two XH-A1s' around that take such beautiful footage, I just keep on using them and only recently said goodbye to my trusty XL2. I do have two GH2s for work that benefits from a bit more bokeh, but I'm just not willing to part with my "old" cameras. I recently shot a political forum with the Canons and noticed a dropped frame or two, but cleaned the tape heads and they're both fine now. And like Owen, I try to stay away from all the marketing enticements prompting all of us to buy the new "it" thing, camera or gadget. I'm semi-retired and just don't want to fork over that kind of dough just to say I do. As long as my clients are happy with my finished products, that's all that matters, and they don't care whether I record to tape, card, or spare tire!

FWIW.

TW

You have hit the nail on the head Terry...
all that matters at the end of the day is that you and/or the client are happy with the results... Tape will keep on rolling for me... :)

I still have my XHA1 that I continue to use. Even when I'm using a digital recorder (such as a Firestore or Ninja or whatever) I still roll a tape as a backup. I was on a shoot once that was being digitally recorded from the switcher and the hard drive in the ninja crashed and all that was left was the tape I was rolling.

I have two Vixia's and now a C100, but I still roll a tape just in case.

For the last two years, I have only used tape because my Sony V1E would not operate without it. All recording was done to SSD in a Ninja 1. My second camera has been tapeless for the past three years.

I have now abandoned tape altogether, having bought a rather nice second-hand Sony EX3 and some Nikon lenses.

Good heavens, I really need to transfer a ton of stuff from DV tape to drive but... don't... have... the time.

Why not set another capture going as you run out to your next job? The computer can always handle it for you whilst you are gone, especially if it is via Firewire.

Andrew

If I'm doing a bunch then I get out multiple laptops and the three cameras and just try to keep the file and folder names straight. Things can go wrong, no need to elaborate, and now my rule is I never delete anything after the clock hits 2am.

Chris, you have to learn to delegate. Have the staff take care of it for you.

Staff?! Haw! If only I could clone myself. :-)

Staff??? Here, kitty!!!

Even here for many reasons using still the old Sony FX1 for sport etc.....

For documentaries using DSLRs

I haven't shot on tape since 2008 or 9.
That goes for both my own projects and when I'm hired to do broadcast work.
I even advocated using the xdcam SD disks on norways biggest reality show "The Farm" back in 2004. They agreed and we were the first big production going tape less.

In 2010 we shot a TV series on Sony EX cameras, and 5D cameras. NRK (BBC equivalent here in Norway) wanted us to deliver on SR tapes, but we managed to convince them to be the first production to deliver the entire show on hard drives.

So unless its LTO tape has been dead to me for a long time. Good riddance

As for back up and archive, DV Tape we realised are absolutely crap. We just finished an extreme sport tv series and had a lot of archive footage we shot on canon XL-1 etc that we needed to digitise again.
A lot of the tapes could only be played back on XL-1 camera, so we had to track one down. Not so easy.
A lot of the tapes showed pixel damage, some to 3 differ players to be find one that could play them. A few we couldn't play back at all. They all been stored safely inside a dark cool basement.

Make sure you keep the camera you shot your footage on if it's HDV or DV.

I also heared the same about the 25p format of the xh-a1 that is supposedly was only possible to playback or transfer footage on canon camera's yet I didn't have any issues using a sony fx1000 for that reason. I also suspect a recorder like the panasonic dv10000 shouldn't have any issues reading that canon tape.

Also as backup I have transferred 18 year old tapes a few years back from my daughters birth without any issues, so my experience is they have been very reliable for long term backup, if you store them right.

I have 10 year old tapes of my daughter that I transferred without problems as well, but white this project where we had tapes from a periods of 5 years, we really had a lot of tapes and a lot more problem tapes than we anticipated.
My point is that I've had a lot less problems with footage on hard drives than on tape, and we have plenty of Terabytes.