Hi,

I was wondering if there are any DSLR's on the market right now that have an external mic port to where I can plug in a lav or shotgun even via an adapter to get good audio?

I'd rather not have to worry about an H4N or external recorder.

Is the GH3 the only option or are there others?

An alternative without going the external recorder route, is to use an external preamp.
juicedLink | Homepage Title (http://juicedlink.com/)

There are earlier versions on eBay for less money if that is a concern.

there are xlr to 3.5mm (headphone) available, and they're cheap enough, that, really, you could use any camera.

I thought of something similar for weddings, but with the file breaks, I think I want to go into a recorder to have one continuous mp3 file, then sync all my video to it. So my new plan is an off camera shotgun mic into a recorder, either using a Gorillapod or tiny stand, placed discretely up front.

Look at the GH4 Joe

You can get a complete professional XLR cradle for it ..it's pricey but at least Panasonic have realised that people use DSLR's for video.

I have the best of both worlds with Sony EA-50's as they are essentially DSLR electronics and sensor inside a video camera body so I have all the features of a DSLR and all the video camera controls too.


I would suspect that the new GH4 has real audio facilities that you can trust, not just an add on. Here is the link : http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1028546-REG/panasonic_dmc_gh4_yagh_lumix_yagh_interface_unit.html


Chris

Joe,

Canon DSLRs with Magic Lantern do a good job of the audio if set correctly, it needs either a pre-amp or a high output mike like the Rode Pro.

You would need to look up which current models ML is compatible with Magic Lantern | Home (http://www.magiclantern.fm/)

Dave

...I was wondering if there are any DSLR's on the market right now that have an external mic port to where I can plug in a lav or shotgun even via an adapter to get good audio?...

It's refreshing to hear someone apppreciate the shortcomings of dual audio and want to record sound in camera. Something you need to pay attention to is the Automatic Gain Control on DSLRs. You need to be able to turn off the AGC and adjust the level manually. Various techniques exist for doing it depending on the camera including special cables that fake out the electronics. If I remember correctly, the recommended technique on the GH3 is to set the volume to the lowest value and hope for the best.

You can also get something like the new Zoom H5 that can be mounted on the hot shoe of your DSLR. That way you can record much better audio to the device, and use the line out to feed the better mix into the camera as well. You get better preamps, you get better headphone port, you get modular mic heads for the Zoom. you get controls over the input levels while recording, ( you wont get that with any HDSLR )

If you have time to use the better quality of the Zoom recording then that's great, if not just use the on board feed.

At the heart, the audio recording circuits of any DSLR are largely an afterthought. Can you get a listenable result going direct to camera? Sure. But you simply can't get an excellent result, because even if you use workarounds like Magic Lantern and other things that disables some problems, you simply can't escape some of the inherent deficiencies in the audio recording chain.

One of the technical guys, possibly Jay Rose or Ty Ford or maybe Adam Wilt did a thorough technical analysis of the 5DMkii using real signal analysis techniques not long after it became so wildly popular.

The resulting professional opinion is that if you want to record audio that is of truly high quality and can stand up to the type of professional scrutiny that means it won't fail whether you're putting in on the speaker of a smart phone OR on the 5.1 surround system at the local theater - you should work double system. Period.

It's your audio, so you get to decide what's good enough.

I'll just say that I've watched and listened to audio that sounded clear, crisp and totally satisfying on a pair of headphones or on a laptop mix. Only to get put into a large audience situation with a serious sound reinforcement system and reveal itself to be thin, anemic and lacking the richness of the material that surrounded it.

If you won't ever want your audio to "go big" like that - then knock yourself out. But if you have dreams that what you work on today - may someday be valuable to a much larger audience, bite the bullet and do your audio right. It's typically carrying MORE actual communications information than your video. To cheap out on it is a huge tactical error, IMO.

My 2 cents.

The preamps in DSLRs are generally cr@p. Auto level control etc.

I use a GH3 with a juiced link preamp. I gotta tell you it's not bad. Not as good as a proper video camera for various reasons as mentioned but records uncompressed 48k 16bit which is more than I can say for my HVR Z5 HDV camera. I'm not using it to record symphony orchestras so the quality is fine for my needs. It has 3 XLR inputs: 1 & 2 mix down to one channel and 3 on the other. You can turn off phantom power or even the entire circuits you are not using to save power. It uses a 9V battery and these suckers are expensive so I'm planning on getting rechargeables now that true 9V rechargeables are available. Because once that very bright battery warning LED comes on you better have a spare handy.

The guy from Juiced Link was talking about making a preamp with an SD recorder built in. Hope he gets this out soon, I want one.

Noa Put has a GH3 rig with a Tascam http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/spc-single-person-crew/522163-how-turn-your-dslr-into-shouldercamera.html#post1836338

I will put a picture up of my rig when I get home.

So even with a GH3 you need a juicelink to get good audio?

Remember the mini handycams that you could plug a mic via an xlr adapter to 1/8 inch?

I'm looking for something like that in a DSLR, which will deliver good audio without the need for any external devices? but there's nothing out on the market I guess.

My problem as well. For interviews in a quiet room you can get away with the audio input in the GH3 but you really need an expensive JuicedAmp or a Beachtek. The expensive ones have a AGC override circuit that can help stop the camera's audio circuit from making wild level adjustments. But the amount you pay for those you could have a Zoom H4N recorder with extra mounting accessories, save a little money and have better overall recordings. I sometimes bring my pro video camera as a b-cam, send the audio there and never use the video from it.

Sure you can use such an adapter, or for an on camera mic Rode and others make ones that plug straight in, but for versatility, most good mics have an xlr plug and all condenser mics require power.

Mics with 1/4 or 1/8 plugs either use batteries or need "plug-in power". Rode's Lavalier is a good quality one that can work with plug-in power although I can't say I've tried it on the GH3. (No, I don't work for Rode!)

The mic input on the GH3 is stereo so if you only plug in a shotgun or lav you're only using one channel and you can't utilise the other one. I know an outboard mixer makes the camera bulkier but at least you have separate control over each channel and you can have a shotgun on the camera and a lav or radio mic at the same time.

But yes, you can plug something straight in, adjust the level and monitor with headphones without any extra bits.

To William:

Expensive? I would't call $329 expensive. This is quality USA made gear.

juicedLink RM222 Riggy-Micro Dual-XLR Preamplifier RM222 B&H

Mine's the RM333 which is $399. Still excellent value IMO.

It's all relative. Here in Australia we get ripped off for everything, and our cost of living is beyond NYC levels, so maybe we are resigned to pay whatever it costs.

A cheap but very effective hack is the iRig hack. If you can solder will only take a few minutes to do. Google it and see.

My GH3 rig with fhugen cage, Rode NTG-1 and Riggy Micro mixer.

There's also an arm for mounting a monitor.

Nice rig, looks very compact, do you use this also handheld or only on a tripod?

Hi Noa,

Most of the day its on a Manfrotto monopod or the Steddiepod. It can be used handheld.

The worst part is it is hard to put down because the QR plate on the bottom is offset, so it wants to fall over. It needs a foot added to the bottom.

I usually use the add on monitor (Lilliput 664 O/P) on a tripod.

PS: I wish I hadn't read about your recent experiences with the GH4 :)

I have not done any real testing but so far the internal audio doesn't seem much better then the gh3 so you still need a good external solution, I use a tascam dr60 to feed the sound directly into the camera and record to the dr60 simultaneously. The sound recorded to the dr60 is much cleaner then what goes into the gh3 (haven't tried it with the gh4 yet) but for weddings that quality is definitely usable, for more critical clients I wouldn't use the sound from a GH camera anyway.

Hey Mark

A genuine Steddiepod?? I was looking at one and then decided that I would make one instead.. Just used a Bogen Monopod and fixed the legs from an old mic stand to the base and put a bunch of counterweights on each leg. It worked quite well actually ...the grip was made from a PVC retic fitting I had. Sadly my camera at that time was a bit too heavy for it!! I eventually used it as a basis for a DIY rig tutorial

Chris

Joe -

Going back to an earlier post:
So even with a GH3 you need a juicelink to get good audio?

Remember the mini handycams that you could plug a mic via an xlr adapter to 1/8 inch?

I'm looking for something like that in a DSLR, which will deliver good audio without the need for any external devices? but there's nothing out on the market I guess.

Here are some thoughts:

With a video (or movie) one is telling a story, a story that has a plot with a beginning and an end, and some other key points along the way (climax, etc.). I don't remember the details but something like 85% of a good movie is the storyline/plot (or whatever) and a huge chunk of that is the casting. Of the 15% that's left, 2/3rds of that is good audio (according to what one big name director said), so basically, what this means is that video is a pretty small piece of the pie.

The numbers aren't science, just something to work from (I really don't want to get into an argument over the didgets). For example, I'd assume family movie and "The Great Race" percentages would be a lot different. Anyway, we're talking "good (or better?) audio." Not the best, right?

Thought #1:
There is a saying for musicians and that is "You play to the audience." Something similar may be said with regard to audio. If the video (movie) is, say, of a family nature, then the audio is probably not that important. If the video is of a piano recital, then the audio will likely be pretty crucial, depending on the skill level of the artist.

Thought #2:
With regard to "without the need for any external devices," and I presume that means some add-on preamp or the like, what about something like a Røde Stereo Video Mic? Sure, it's an "add-on" but it should be able to improve the audio over the built-in camera mics, and one can put a wind muff (Røde calls it a dead cat but there are some that take offense to that).

The Røde takes a 9V battery and has it's own built-in preamp with a couple switches and will attach on the hot shoe. For family-type videos, vacation videos and the like, this would be a good mic to have and I use mine a lot. Easy to put on and take off and the wind protection (muff) is very helpful. Actually, let's say "required".

Thought #3:
For audio, mics are akin to artist's paint brushes. An artist can't paint with just one brush - they have a whole quiver of brushes. Same with someone who records audio, more than one mic is needed. Let's make that "NEEDED'" (emphasis added).

Add-on device. Question: is the reluctance due to the extra "stuff" on the camera or to the cost? If it's cost, there are used preamps on eBay and yesterday I looked at some of the Sold prices and some buyers got what I think are some good deals. So buying used is certainly one alternative. Check to see if the little mini patch cord is included, or maybe the allen wrench.

The beauty of the add-on preamp is one gets much better electronics, controls, and versatility, something that if the camera manufacturers included it, they would have to charge a lot more. As a rule, all the good mics will have XLR connectors so if the goal is to have better than "good" audio then a preamp has to be in your future. That doesn't mean one has to get one now, the Røde SVM will provide "good" audio, but in the future, if "better than good" is desired, including a lot more controls over the audio input, then a preamp will be needed.

For what it's worth, a couple days ago I was talking to a pro who runs a video company. He uses DSLRs (and camcorders) in auto shoots (sport/racing cars), and he said that audio is very important.

So even with a GH3 you need a juicelink to get good audio?

Remember the mini handycams that you could plug a mic via an xlr adapter to 1/8 inch?

I'm looking for something like that in a DSLR, which will deliver good audio without the need for any external devices? but there's nothing out on the market I guess.

I guess you're right.

A DSLR is a stills camera first. The vast majority of the R&D went into making it work as a stills camera. The layout and controls are all stills-based. They added video as a feature to help sell the stills camera. It's a feature -- that is, a small part of the much bigger camera. So they spent a lot less on it. And unfortunately for them, to make the video worth something as a sales feature for a stills camera, they had to add audio functions. This, they spent as little time and money on as they could, and still cursed up a blue streak about what it does to the layout and the way the camera works. If you're lucky, your DSLR has a few USD worth of audio chips in it. And it shouldn't surprise you that it doesn't have balanced XLR inputs or manual controls for audio. Because it's a stills camera.

Those "mini handycams" have better audio because they have better video. They aren't stills cameras, they are video cameras. So they work like video cameras, have video camera layouts and controls, and have better control over audio. The teams that design them know that to video camera consumers, audio is important. So even my little $600 USD Canon handcam has manual control of audio. Actually, the audio in that little handycam is pretty good. I would have loved to get that in a GH3. Didn't happen, because the GH3 is a stills camera.

So even with a GH3 you need a juicelink to get good audio?...Remember the mini handycams that you could plug a mic via an xlr adapter to 1/8 inch?... I'm looking for something like that in a DSLR, which will deliver good audio without the need for any external devices? but there's nothing out on the market I guess.

This belies a commonly misunderstood idea that a DSLR is a video camera. It is not. As stated by others, it is a stills camera with video and audio capability. This is why there are so many cages, boxes etc to cobble together better components into a rig for quality film making. If as much human ingenuity and effort that has been put into making DSLRs work like a proper video camera surely had been channeled elsewhere, we'd surely have solved world hunger by now. But I digress.

Classically, a video camera consists of 4 major components:
1) lens
2) imaging block
3) audio block
4) recording block

The inability for any one of these to deliver satisfactory results is why there are so many external boxes, hacks, I/O ports etc such as recorders, XLR adapters and so on.

Bypassing a camera's audio block is not new. Sony's venerable PD150, PD170, VX1000 ilk notably spawned the Greg Winter modification (yes I am that old) and fed a firestorm of accusations that Sony deliberately made the PD150 preamps noisy so as to prevent the cheap PD150 from eating into sales of it's more expensive cameras. Much hand wringing and knashing of teeth was vented on that topic. Here's one:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-vx2100-pd170-pdx10-companion/47101-pd170-audio-mod.html

In my experience, modern day cameras deliver much better audio than the prosumer DV cameras so in that sense, you are ahead of things already. You *may* find the GH3 perfectly adequate for your needs but it's ergonomics and electronics are minimal as it's a stills camera (albeit one that tries to do video better than the others). When you get to the point you want to connect XLR mics to a DSLR's 3.5mm stereo input jack, external boxes like the Juicedlink or Beachtek are needed. Quality preamps like the Juicedlink are the better ones. Ironically, that is the component the Greg Winter modification bypassed that Sony supposedly crippled. But I digress.

Here's a video comparing a Zoom H6 and the audio from the GH3. The GH3 is being fed by the line out of the GH3: Lumix GH3 Audio vs Zoom H6 - YouTube

Here's a blog post that accompanied the video, with links to the audio files for a more detailed comparison: Lumix GH3 Audio vs Zoom H6 | Homebrewed Music (http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2014/01/23/lumix-gh3-audio-vs-zoom-h6/)

Fran

To William:

Expensive? I would't call $329 expensive. This is quality USA made gear.

juicedLink RM222 Riggy-Micro Dual-XLR Preamplifier RM222 B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/893484-REG/juicedLink_rm222_Riggy_Micro_2XLR_With_Phantom.html)

Mine's the RM333 which is $399. Still excellent value IMO.

It's all relative. Here in Australia we get ripped off for everything, and our cost of living is beyond NYC levels, so maybe we are resigned to pay whatever it costs.

That looks like a good little box however the box I was referring to is this: juicedLink RA222 Riggy-Assist Dual-XLR Preamplifier RA222 B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/893487-REG/juicedLink_ra222_Riggy_Assist_2XLR_Phantom_Power_Meters_Preamp.html/prm/alsVwDtl). It goes for $400US and comes with the important AGC circuit. The body of a GH3 now costs around $1000. It's a little ridiculous that these relatively simple audio circuits are nearly half the price of the amazing technology package in a GH camera body. The Zoom gives you more technology for less money.

Unfortunately, and I'll admit this, the Zoom recorder is clumsy to use as there is no camera mount for it that is as easy to use as the JuicedLink or Beachtek. If either JuicedLink or Beachtek came out with a SD recorder integrated into their units and they kept the price reasonable (under $400), I would be getting one.

Lots of good responses here ... but I'd like to add one important detail. Much of the professional DSLR video workflow was built up around the Canon 5D which had several audio challenges. In fact, without the 5D the Zoom H4N would still be a guitar gadget (it has built in guitar effects for musicians, the original target audience).

There are several other DSLR cameras available that have user-controllable audio levels, built-in headphone jacks, and relatively clean recording.

I own a Sony Z5 as well - but for the past 2 years, I've been shooting almost exclusively with a Nikon D600. I record the two outputs of my wireless Sony mic to the camera and a Tascam DR40 (their version of the Zoom H4N without the guitar effects for $100 less). In all this time, I have never needed the tracks from the DR40 - the audio from the camera is clear as a bell. But it's nice to have a backup.

Sam

Fran - that was some really nice guitar pickin'. One can really hear the richness of the strings.

One thing I noticed was that acoustic guitar players tend to have a real ear for how things sound. Because one can't have too many mics and because there are several instruments and vocals I want to video and get good audio with, I've visited one acoustic guitar web site where there has been some really good discussions about various makes and models of mics to use for various purposes. That was last winter and I kinda got sidetracked with other things.

Anyway, that was some nice playing.

Sam - As an old SLR Nikon guy it was nice to read your post about how the audio in your camera sounded so good. I wish Nikon would make a serious video camera, though, and maybe something along the lines of the old Photomic T cameras with interchangeable everything. I still have a lot of gear from my old system and might even be able to put some of it to use with some modifications.

With the right equipment and technique, one can get issue-free audio from a DSLR. I'm not talking about pristine, best-of-class, audiophile quality. I'm talking about recording audio where no typical user will notice anything negative.

The D90 started it all and the 5D Mark II followed quickly, transforming the whole landscape. Initially, the 5D2 didn't do manual exposure video, let alone manual audio control. AGC was the only option. Before long, Magic Lantern launched and manual audio became a reality. At roughly the same time, Canon provided manual exposure and eventually, 24 fps and manual audio control. Audio is recorded at 48 kHz at 16 bits. Of course, the front end includes a 1/8" unbalanced stereo input and a cheap mic preamp, so the camera needs some help.

Add a powered preamp and you can accept a balanced input and provide phantom power. If the preamp is strong and clean (I've had excellent results with juicedLink products), you can turn down the camera's preamp and get a low-noise result.

For good results, use the Canon firmware, turn the audio level to one tick above minimum, and crank the preamp (or use a Rode Videomic Pro, which includes an active signal boost). Signal to noise will be good (about as good as an H4n), but you can do better.

The stock Canon firmware cranks the analog gain from the camera's preamp and manages the overall gain digitally. With Magic Lantern, we can turn down the analog gain in the camera and manage the digital gain separately. This reduces noise by another 6 to 9 dB by my measurements. With a juicedLink, this gets the noise very close to the floor for a 16-bit recording. There's no need for a cleaner external preamp as we've pretty much hit the S/N limit for the system.

There remain, however, two limitations. One problem is that the 5D2 includes a bass cut. This is fine for recording dialog (and removing handling noise, wind, etc), but is terrible for recording full range music. Last I checked, Magic Lantern wasn't able to disable the bass cut. That might have changed in recent versions. I'm not sure about the 5D3.

The other problem is that the sound is somewhat harsh. Maybe this is due to pushing the input preamp so hard. My gut feel is that the harshness is due to the lack of a good anti aliasing filter. I'd love to test the audio after inserting a good anti-aliasing filter between the juicedLink and the camera. That could smooth things out but would add yet more cost and another component. (Though it could be wired into the juicedLink box with a bit of soldering.)

So the best you can do with a 5D2 is a low noise (nice!), poor bass (not nice for music), somewhat harsh (possibly solvable) result.

Personally, I like recording into the camera with the stock firmware through a Videomic Pro or a juicedLink preamp when shooting solo. It's not the best possible quality, but it's simple and nearly foolproof. When recording doco-style like at a trade show, this is as good a quality as I need. I'm more limited by background noise and mic placement than the equipment.

When an audio person is available, I prefer recording into an external recorder. In this case, I'm glad that the internal mic and AGC are there as I get an sync track without even thinking about external boxes and setting gains. In our case, we use the Fostex FR-2LE, which is a modest step up in price from an H4n, but which delivers a cleaner result. It's not the most robust recorder around, but it sounds great for the price.

Fran - that was some really nice guitar pickin'. One can really hear the richness of the strings.

One thing I noticed was that acoustic guitar players tend to have a real ear for how things sound. Because one can't have too many mics and because there are several instruments and vocals I want to video and get good audio with, I've visited one acoustic guitar web site where there has been some really good discussions about various makes and models of mics to use for various purposes. That was last winter and I kinda got sidetracked with other things.

Anyway, that was some nice playing.

Sam - As an old SLR Nikon guy it was nice to read your post about how the audio in your camera sounded so good. I wish Nikon would make a serious video camera, though, and maybe something along the lines of the old Photomic T cameras with interchangeable everything. I still have a lot of gear from my old system and might even be able to put some of it to use with some modifications.

Hey John, I don't think Nikon will ever step outside the form factor of an SLR for video, but have you taken a look at the D800, new D810 or D610? They are serious video cameras. I'm an old Nikon guy too - I started out with my grandfather's Nikon F. I still have the body and 3 non-AI Nikkor lenses (35, 85 and 60mm micro). In fact, I had the micro lens modified several years ago to work with current F-mounts. All these years later, the Nikon camera logic and control layout is still more sensible to me than Canon. Everything is right where it should be on my D600. I shoot with my Sony Z5 when I'm on the move, but for controlled environments you can't beat the image quality of a DSLR.

I know this thread is about audio - I'm also a musician with a sensitive ear for tone. Perhaps I've been lucky so far, but the audio level produced by my Sony UWP-V1 wireless receiver, Audio-Technica AT897 wired lav and and AT899 boom mic are sufficient for clean audio on my projects without a need to drive the gain. The gain range on the camera is 1-20, and I normally set it at 7.

Sam - I've given some thought to having a DSLR to go with the camcorder. The problem is I just have real difficulty dealing with the DSLR layout and form factor but the big glass for low light is what would get me to get one. A good video-cam camcorder upgrade is the current numero uno item on my list. I will check out the models you suggested, though. And if the glass that I still have can be made to fit with a replacement of the bayonet ring that'd be awesome. Then the 52mm filters would work. 4-tack bellows? Hmmm....

You're fortunate to have started out on a Nikon F. These were really trouble-free cameras. I started out a few years before you on a 120 box camera than as a teenager I got an Argus C3 "brick". Took a photography class with a TSLR and Graflex 4x5. Got a SLR and a Weston light meter, bought film in 100-ft reels and loaded it into cartridges using a changing bag. Did my own B&W developing. The Yashica was constantly breaking down so I got the Nikon. Really trouble free. Still have some of the gear - can't throw anything away.

For mics, I've got a fair selection (including the AT899 wire lavalier) and looking for more but right now the camcorder replacement is the main item. Seems the rolling shutter may not be as severe a problem as I thought. We'll see. Really don't like spending a few thousand on something that turns out to be not what I need.

The good thing about good mics is they hold their value much better an the cameras do, so they're a good investment.

Listening to Fran's comparison through some nice speakers and it is apparent the GH3 has a fair bit of HF noise. Having said that, recording acoustic music is a torture test for every link in the audio chain and I think the GH3 holds up pretty well.

I can't say I've noticed that noise in my GH3 but in the environments I work, the preamp noise would be lost in the background noise anyway.

When I use it for clean speech, such as interviews or testimonials, it is fine. Thanks Fran, I will keep an ear out for that noise for critical sound - it is simple & fast to filter out with a DAW (Adobe Audition in my case).

I also use a Rode Videomic, mostly on my GH2 and it is pretty good as on camera miss go. It's only for nat sound. The GH3 with the Juiced Link has a Rode NTG1.

William - you don't need the AGC killer on the GH3. The AGC doesn't appear to work when the level is set to 1. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong).

The GH3, at least the one I have, seems to work great with the Rode Video Microphone. Very good audio in most situations. My Sony wireless lavalier works decently but not as well as on a video camera. More unwanted level shifts. As soon as I try to use any sort of mixer or the Zoom recorder it's very noticeable compared to a separate recording source. And forget using the audio on the GH3 in a room with a loud air conditioner. Terrible.

However you have inspired me to try level 1 on the AGC.

My understanding is that a cheap mic close to the source beats anything that can be mounted to a camera and is even better than any VideoCam.
However, most professionals actually do use the internal mic. It is used to synch the external recording.

The in-camera mics on a D800 are the best that I've used and can get you by for an interview.

I personally use a shoe mounted Azden shotgun mic for my GH4 "Home Movies",
but I would get external Sound and Video recorders if I were going to sell my Productions.

As a photographer and semi-musician, bad sound sticks out to me like a sore thumb. Knowing what I know now, I want to re-record everything I've done from before a year ago.

One thing I've learned over the coarse of learning good audio hygene is to never if at all possible use internal audio on dslr unless it is a scratch track or in worse case scenario, back up audio if double system recorder craps out. And never mount mic on camera if possible: camera noise, and so on. You'll also have to crank the gain with camera mounted on camera which just exasperates the bad audio. You start to see the importance of a good sound person, or at very least someone who can handle a boom with a mic if it is not a lav.

AGC is weird and I'd avoid that too. Sound seems to always be trying to find a proper "level" and you can actually hear this. Drives me crazy.

So far I've made every mistake in the book, fortunately in the testing mode, and am still learning important stuff.

Remember. Unlike digital photos and to some extent video, you can't use a "photoshop" like app to really correct bad audio well.

And test. Test. Test!!! I recommend Jay Rose's book and definately all the great minds that are here on the audio forums.

Jonathan

To state it succinctly:

For any camera, regardless of price:

A) In camera recording is useful for only two things.

1. Somewhat intelligible spoken dialogue
2. A synch track

B) An on-camera mic is probably not even useful for A1. And if it's more than 20 - 30 feet away from the source it's not particularly useful for A2 either

Not exactly what you're asking for, but used FS100 and AF100 cinema cameras are selling for about as much as new-generation DSLR's, come in about the same size as a DSLR + pre-amp/recorder/etc, and include a number of other video features. Unless you need the stills capability or don't need sync sound, DSLRs make less and less sense.

Alternately, Sony makes the "XLR-K1M" which includes pre-amp, XLR inputs, audio pots, etc for several of its cameras (read up to see exactly which models). Expensive, but well-integrated.

"DSLR's, come in about the same size as a DSLR + pre-amp/recorder/etc, and include a number of other video features. Unless you need the stills capability or don't need sync sound, DSLRs make less and less sense."

I've thought this for years!

And if you are doing anything run and gun, you are better off with a straight video camera IMHO. You also get into the expense of a sound person. Hard to be a SPC.

On the other hand if you are doing a sit down interview it is more than possible, though you will be busy.

Jonathan

Actually not true for me.

My GH4 is smaller than many VideoCams and I do not need anything but a compact 12-35 lens.
The AFF is so fast and accurate that it does make a great "Run & Gun".
If I need Audio as good as any VideoCam under $5500 I put a cheap Azden SMX-10 shotgun mic in the hot shoe.

"If I need Audio as good as any VideoCam under $5500 I put a cheap Azden SMX-10 shotgun mic in the hot shoe."

Roger, do you plug your shotgun mic directly into the camera's mic input via 8th inch to xlr adapter and get good audio? That's what I'm looking to do.

I know I can't get perfect audio but I'd like to get the best I can without the need for external recorders. Primarily thing would be to record dialogue for interviews but if it could work for live events like weddings, conferences would be a plus.

I've used the H4N before and it's fine, I just would like to reduce the amount of gear needed and record good audio into camera if possible.


I have this mic the ME66 with the K6 power supply. Sennheiser ME66/K6 - Super-Cardioid Mic Capsule with K6 Kit B&H

Will this work with what this user describes

"For good results, use the Canon firmware, turn the audio level to one tick above minimum, and crank the preamp (or use a Rode Videomic Pro, which includes an active signal boost). Signal to noise will be good (about as good as an H4n), but you can do better.

The stock Canon firmware cranks the analog gain from the camera's preamp and manages the overall gain digitally. With Magic Lantern, we can turn down the analog gain in the camera and manage the digital gain separately. This reduces noise by another 6 to 9 dB by my measurements. With a juicedLink, this gets the noise very close to the floor for a 16-bit recording. There's no need for a cleaner external preamp as we've pretty much hit the S/N limit for the system."

"If I need Audio as good as any VideoCam under $5500 I put a cheap Azden SMX-10 shotgun mic in the hot shoe."

Roger, do you plug your shotgun mic directly into the camera's mic input via 8th inch to xlr adapter and get good audio? That's what I'm looking to do.

I know I can't get perfect audio but I'd like to get the best I can without the need for external recorders. Primarily thing would be to record dialogue for interviews but if it could work for live events like weddings, conferences would be a plus.

."

Some of the on board camera mics are OK but subject to lens and surround sounds.
The Azden mounts on the flash shoe with rubber and is directional.
Yes, it plugs directly into the camera mic jack without an adapter.
Not as good as dedicated mic system dubbed in later, but more than good enough for my work.

To state it succinctly:

For any camera, regardless of price:

A) In camera recording is useful for only two things.

1. Somewhat intelligible spoken dialogue
2. A synch track

B) An on-camera mic is probably not even useful for A1. And if it's more than 20 - 30 feet away from the source it's not particularly useful for A2 either

I posted this in another thread, but here's an acoustic guitar duet recorded through a Rode NT4 stereo mic straight into the Lumix GH4 mic input:

Aloha Kaua`i - Slack Key Jam - YouTube

This GH4 has had the post-sale audio buzz fix applied. I thought the GH3 was marginally OK but not good enough to replace the external recorder (Zoom H6 usually) for my clips. Now that I have the GH4 I'm rethinking my approach.

Fran

To state it succinctly:

For any camera, regardless of price:

A) In camera recording is useful for only two things.

1. Somewhat intelligible spoken dialogue
2. A synch track

B) An on-camera mic is probably not even useful for A1. And if it's more than 20 - 30 feet away from the source it's not particularly useful for A2 either

Actually, I can capture "good" sound with my directional Azden MX-10.
There are some longer and more expensive shotgun mics that can pickup "better" from even further away. Of course, a dedicated sound system is "best".

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasonic-lumix-gf-gh-series/525478-tascam-dr-60dmk2-pcm-recorder-first-impressions.html

I just got the TASCAM dual mixer/PCM recorder unit. The link is to my first impressions.

"If I need Audio as good as any VideoCam under $5500 I put a cheap Azden SMX-10 shotgun mic in the hot shoe."

Roger, do you plug your shotgun mic directly into the camera's mic input via 8th inch to xlr adapter and get good audio? That's what I'm looking to do.



No adapter needed for this mic with most DSLRs, attached mic cable terminates in 1/8" mini stereo jack. My son has one of these he used with his HV30 and it actually sounds good when placed close to the talent. However I've not tried his on any of the DSLRs I had (gone mirrorless now with GH3 and GH4) and I would not use it with any camera that had AGC.

I will second William Hohauser's endorsement of the Tascam unit, I have the model previous to the one he referenced and with a stand mounted shotgun mic (AT 897 or Sony ECM 672) placed close to the talent but off to one side out of the frame I get good audio patched into the GH3/GH4 with two tracks recorded on an SDHC card in the Tascam (one of the tracks is a "safety" track running -6db below the main track.

I guess different people have different ideas about the definition of "good" My definition is if it works for what you do, it's good.

For classical performances where the main cam is at the back of the hall, in-camera/on-camera audio is useless. So I don't use it.

This post has been going on a while, but is interesting,and likely should be in the audio section for more feedback. But I thought, after reading it, I'd add my .02. The OP originally asked whether you could get adequate audio through a direct feed to the camera. My answer, after trying a lot of things is, "it depends". It depends on what your end result is going to be used for (one of the posters alluded to this). Out here in the Pacific NW I rarely can afford a sound person on my clients' budgets, all work is going to go to the web, and I have to shoot fairly fast. Not for large screens in theaters. So I've experimented with a variety of mic inputs and have found, amazingly enough, that some modern combinations can work fine for that kind of delivery. My 5dMkiii has much improved sound over either a 7D or earlier Mkii. Have I failed sometimes? you bet.

I can close mic using a *wired* lavalier or wireless lav directly in, and get, *if I'm careful about wind and levels* a pretty decent audio feed.(samples below). I also prefer to have either a SD mixpre-d for riding levels without hassle, or a Tascam DR60 so that I can get a second recording that comes in two channel and one of the channels is -10 below the other. So I end up with *three* recordings, one on the camera and two at different levels in the Tascam. This has been a great boon to my solo shooting efforts. Tascam has also brought out two new models, and they are *cheap* but fine quality for interview work. Good on Tascam for doing this! They do eat batteries though. So bring plenty. Zoom quality has never impressed me, having driven an H4 into the ground in less than two years. They look pretty though! When I need better quality sound I go into at least a Marantz 661 if not SD.

While these recordings are not meant to be Academy Award material, when I posted them to the audio threads Ty Ford said that he thought that things had improved with in camera sound since he had done his testing and thanked me for posting them. So I feel I can reshare them for the OPs' thoughts, if still relevant.

I assume that the GH4 and other new cameras can do at least as good a job as the 5dMkiii. But you will have to try them out yourselves. And just a final thought, I usually now use my C100 as it's a better video camera than any of my DSLRs. By the time you put all the add ons to a GH4, you can lease a C100. Sound quality is excellent and it also can record a second track at -10dB lower.

These recordings are only to show my results and give food for thought, not to try and say they are the answer or better than using a second sound system, such as an SD with someone knowledgeable running it. I *always* prefer having an audio guy with me, but often it's just impossible. If I was working in Seattle, then it would be likely to find someone.

This first sample has some room echo even with a lav on the guy, as it's a big empty room. I can't imagine that with that much hard surface I would have done better with anything other than a lav on his shirt. Would a boomed shotgun do better? The second is more indicative. And again, there was no wind that day.
12.12.12. - Jamestown SKlallam Tribal Wood Carvers - One Day On Earth on Vimeo
Jefferson County MRC - People and Projects on Vimeo (please be kind about the titles, it was a fast job, the titles were chosen to be easily readable by budget minded politicians looking at an embedded web video page. I'm in the process of updating the whole thing for a December deadline)

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasonic-lumix-gf-gh-series/525478-tascam-dr-60dmk2-pcm-recorder-first-impressions.html

I just got the TASCAM dual mixer/PCM recorder unit. The link is to my first impressions.

william-

any updates on using the dr60 in the field?

thanks in advance.

be well.

rob
smalltalk productions/nyc

While we wait for William's feedback, I've not used the new mode Tascam 60d mkii but have used the older model 60d for the last year, (the model just going out of production). To add a bit to his comments at the link he provided, I have used mine in the field on a 5Dmkiii, but I usually end up mounting it on an arm off the tripod rather than under the camera. (both my tripods have screw on accessory arm mounts, which I highly recommend). He is correct that it's a bit bulky combination, and sometimes I add the battery pack to the 5Dmkiii so it is not a good fit under the camera with the battery pack on. The mounting unit is plastic and much less solid than the SD Mixpre-d. The MIxpre feels like a professional design, but the Tascam feels like plastic that will eventually break. But the price difference is so great that you just have to accept that. I would be interested to know if they changed that mount.

On my C100 I also screw it onto an arm off the tripod. I do not mount it under or over the camera, though I suppose I could mount it on top.

Other than that, the specs seem very similar and the only difference I can see in the specs is that they are now adverstising the pre amps.

The one thing that I do notice on my 'older' unit is that the standard levels for mics is very low, even with the gain all the way up. Recently I had to switch to a higher gain switch to boost the volume coming from my shotgun, which did add a small amount of hiss.

All in all, it is interesting that I have not used my mixpre-d much since getting the Tascam 60d last year. Given the price that Tascam is bringing these very capable units in at (check out their newest 4 xlr in under mount unit the 70d) is under $300 even for the 'high end" version, I would suggest to SD that they look at designing a recorder into the Mix-pre.I much prefer their pre-amps, but if I have to grab something for interviews etc, it's much simpler to use the Tascam unit and have the external recording done without grabbing another recorder.

The other unit my sound engineering friends are really seeming to like is the DR680. For the price it's well worth buying if you need more than 4 XLR inputs. A friend that does professional recording felt the preamps were good enough to compete with the gear in his studio. But I feel it would have been a better design feature to simply redesign the 680 with it's more professional front panel controls to be smaller and mount under the camera, rather then the 7D design with the less professional front panel knobs. I assume chip miniturzation has improved enough since the 680 was designed that it would be possible.

Suddenly I have not had any calls for my GH3 with the TASCAM unit however two weeks ago I used it has an external recorder for a choir concert in a church with two ENG cameras. Plugged a stereo mike into it and got a great recording.

I worked recently with a Nikon D7100, I plugged a lav into its mic input and it sounded fine, perfectly usable for most scenarios.

Any Canon DSLRs with that same ability (getting USABLE audio by plugging straight into its internal mic jack)?

Sorry to not follow up but work has been heavy until now.

I have used the TASCAM 60D for several 2 camera interviews now and it's worked great. Using an audio splinter I originally got for the ZOOM recorder I sent the output of the TASCAM to both cameras, a GH3 and a GH2. This made synching the cameras for multicam editing in Final Cut Pro X a cinch. The tone button is an excellent feature or you can program it to generate a brief tone at the beginning of a recording. The unit is really helpful and the ZOOM recorder, while still good for some situations, is going out of the shoot kit and into a drawer.