View Full Version : And this shows exactly how far from reality people are when hiring people for video


Steven Davis
February 4th, 2015, 12:44 PM
Film soccer highlights (henrico)
© craigslist - Map data © OpenStreetMap

(google map) (yahoo map)
compensation: $100.00 / 3 matches

Looking for reasonable level of experience to shoot soccer matches on Sundays.
Requirements and expectations:
Have your own transportation to take you to Bryan Park and Dorey Park.
Must own and know how to correctly operate your own HD camera and tripod.
Shoot 3 consecutive soccer matches 90 mins each.
Perform simple edits down to 5 min highlights of each ( no gfx or music required ).
Upload highlight files on a Dropbox account within 48 hours of the shoot.
Commit to a 9 week schedule.

The hired candidate will be paid $100. cash for 3 matches.

If you have a reel please send a link.
Season starts the 1st Sunday in March.

do NOT contact me with unsolicited services or offers

Noa Put
February 4th, 2015, 01:24 PM
They probably take a hourrate into consideration what they pay to have their car fixed and they probably forget that editing also takes time. :)

Shaun Roemich
February 4th, 2015, 04:37 PM
Here in Vancouver that would be up on Craigslist for NO money and "for your demo reel"...

Seriously.

Oh... and would be posted the night before the season started.

Gary Huff
February 4th, 2015, 05:35 PM
iPhone shoots HD. You can get a little adapter to mount it to a tripod as well! Then you can email them recorded file right there on the field!

Bruce Dempsey
February 4th, 2015, 06:16 PM
a hundred bucks per match
the idea of highlites is simply ludicrous (spell that rite?)

Shaun Roemich
February 4th, 2015, 06:57 PM
Then you can email them recorded file right there on the field!

Mobile data rates must be lower in the US than up here in Canada...

Vince Pachiano
February 4th, 2015, 08:43 PM
a hundred bucks per match

Re-read the Ad. It's $100 for 3 matches @ 90 minutes each
We are easily talking 8 hours of travel/production/post that is $12.50 per hour. No thanks!

Steven Davis
February 4th, 2015, 09:44 PM
I thought about emailing the poster to give them a polite dose of reality, but I would probably be wasting my time.

Andrew Smith
February 6th, 2015, 01:30 PM
What if your highlights of the recorded match were .... so bad they were hilarious. I mean, you could get distracted with the person selling hot dogs on the side of the field etc. (inserts evil thoughts)

Seriously, you'd make more money as the taxi driver going between the three matches and home again.

Andrew

James Manford
February 6th, 2015, 03:01 PM
The issue is this and always has solely been this ...

Newbies that start in the business charge peanuts. Not because they can't shoot video ... because they don't have business accumen and don't believe in their capabilities.

So what happens ... they advertise saying they'll shoot 8 hours straight and edit for £200 or for free for demo purposes.

That warps the perception of the general public. And then when they see established companies charging proper money (that they can live on). They throw up a tantrum.

Josh Bass
February 6th, 2015, 08:25 PM
i think clients fall into two basic categories: experienced and inexperienced.

experienced clients will understand what all this gear costs, what it takes to be a good shooter/editor/etc., how much effort and time goes into a shoot/edit, all those types of things--and have a good idea of what a rate commensurate with all that related to the market/city theyre hiring should be.

INexperienced clients have no idea about any of that, and i believe probably dont do any research on rates and simply pull a figure out of thin air for what they think our services are worth, and are therefore shocked to their cores to see a quote of $500+ for a few hours of shooting.

Paul Ekert
February 7th, 2015, 09:29 AM
On a bridal forum I saw one bride asking if anyone was willing to video her big day for 80 pounds. Not even 100! 80 quid for a full days work plus editing time. Might as well do it for free!

Kevin McRoberts
February 7th, 2015, 09:34 AM
You know all those small-market local news photogs (and sometimes reporters)? This could actually be a raise for most of them with more lenient turnaround times. All those high school basketball/football highlights that are turned around in time for the 11 O'Clock news are done with essentially the same expectations, albeit use of their gear, edit space, and possibly some meager employment benefits.

As a youngster, I did far worse work for far less money in a day. Think like a 16 year old weighing this vs. flipping burgers at minimum wage - take a borrowed Handicam, iMovie or Moviemaker on parent's (or your own) computer, a little time, and you've got yourself gas money for a couple of weeks. Face it: simple video work is now in the realm of lawn mowing.

Josh Bass
February 7th, 2015, 09:57 AM
Problem is clients have the same expectation from people using what you listed above as someone with an $8000 cam, pro lighting kit, pro computer and pro editing software.

Kevin McRoberts
February 7th, 2015, 10:45 AM
This is kids' soccer. It's one of those jobs that takes time, but not that much skill or equipment. Two ways to look at it: either they don't know what it takes but know what they have and will accept whatever they get in that budget, OR they know what it takes and know what they have and don't expect a fully pro shooter with a pro codec camera, but are fine with a high schooler or moonlighting soccer mom doing the work. I can't make myself upset at the poster - they're not going to be getting rich as a kids soccer sports highlights producer. There can't be a lot of resources there. No way I'd be taking the job, but if I lived closer and my kids were a little older, I'd be fine with them working it.

I've gotten inquiries from inexperienced producers before, usually for small scale corporate work. There's a small period of education where they realize they have to compromise on either deadline, budget, or quality. These often aren't pro marketing people... they're bakers, or mechanics, or whatever that know very generally what they want, know exactly what they have, but don't know the path to a finished product. Either a deal is struck, or it isn't. If a videographer caves on all three, then they're the one being educated.

The CL postings I actually get miffed about are more like what Josh mentions, though... "highly rated reality show wants experienced F800 shooter with outstanding reel for intensive 12-hour day shoots - $250/d" That's paraphrasing from an actual posting recently, on CL or another job board. That POS producer knows exactly how much that experience and ability are worth, how much they'll personally profit, and is paying crap rates, expecting far too much. Those are the ones I get cheesed about.

Mike Watson
February 7th, 2015, 10:48 PM
Film soccer highlights (http://richmond.craigslist.org/cwg/4875701918.html)

I tend to agree with the others who say it's unreasonable, but not *that* unreasonable. There are lots of other crappy jobs people do for less than $12.50/hour. It doesn't require a $50k camera, you can certainly do it with a $300 vidcam and a $25 tripod. They're not shooting for ESPN, they just want a highlight reel for the team/the kids/the parents. Not every job pays $1,000/day.

I can't stand people who insist on "educating" clients. They have a budget. I have a dayrate. If the two intersect, we have a deal. If not, there are people out there with lesser dayrates. If they are not happy with the quality they're getting at that rate, they either need to come up with more money, or learn to live with what they can afford. They don't need to be "educated". They'll figure it out on their own.

Gary Huff
February 8th, 2015, 10:18 AM
Clients don't need to be educated. It's the guy who shows up with a Red Epic to do this gig at that rate who needs to be pulled aside.

Josh Bass
February 8th, 2015, 12:36 PM
Let's just say the ignorance can go both ways.

Kevin McRoberts
February 8th, 2015, 07:19 PM
By saying "a small period of education," I mean in the most general sort... such as, they ask "can you make the commercial have John Goodman and Randy Quaid having a light saber battle to Scorpions 'Rock You Like A Hurricane' and have it to me tomorrow for $250?" and I might say "for $250 I'll have my PA film you and your business's AR exec having a slapfight over some buyout stock music. Goodman's wage alone might be slightly more, unless you can sweet-talk him." Not all learning is done with a white board, $168 text, and series of scantron sheet exams, but sometimes instead by a short and simple explanation of reality.

Shaun Roemich
February 10th, 2015, 12:39 PM
They have a budget. I have a dayrate. If the two intersect, we have a deal.

I'll wade into this more carefully than I usually do...

"They have a budget..."

Yes, but folks increasingly make arbitrary decisions around budget these days without considering what stuff actually costs... INCLUDING videographers. "What's the best 4k RAW capable camera with 1000 fps that has remarkable low light performance that I can buy for $100?" isn't all that farfetched from what I read almost daily, including here on DVInfo.

Just because someone has set a budget doesn't mean they have a hot clue whether it is accurate or not.

Josh Bass
February 10th, 2015, 12:42 PM
Thank you. to me its like any other product or service, you SHOULD research it and find out if your expectations are way out of whack before trying to purchase.

Shaun Roemich
February 10th, 2015, 02:06 PM
One of the things that is never considered until it is too late is the issue of liability. I guarantee you that if something was to happen to a spectator or a player, the hired video person would get sued and the whole "but I was ONLY making $12.50 an hour..." excuse wouldn't hold up at all.

Sad but true.

Josh Bass
February 10th, 2015, 02:28 PM
thats why we're supposed to have that insurance that most of us dont have.

Mike Watson
February 11th, 2015, 12:06 AM
I'll wade into this more carefully than I usually do...

"They have a budget..."

Yes, but folks increasingly make arbitrary decisions around budget these days without considering what stuff actually costs... INCLUDING videographers. "What's the best 4k RAW capable camera with 1000 fps that has remarkable low light performance that I can buy for $100?" isn't all that farfetched from what I read almost daily, including here on DVInfo.

Just because someone has set a budget doesn't mean they have a hot clue whether it is accurate or not.
I would put educating someone who calls *you* on a different level than picking through ads on craigslist, then calling them to give them a piece of your mind.

Josh Bass
February 11th, 2015, 06:13 AM
yes of course...when its an ad on CL you see it, chortle and move on. when someone contacts YOU, different story.

Bruce Dempsey
February 11th, 2015, 08:55 AM
A lot of youth sporting events like Hockey Tournaments and figureskating competitions I'll do on spec and take my chances selling the video to individual participants (well their parents actually) and over the years it has worked out to roughly 20% will buy a disc of the game
with respect to the OP's question, a hundred bucks is a guarantee which is nice to have, covering the gas etc. Now if there are 15 players on a team, or whatever it is x 6 teams = 90 players and if 20% buy their own disc that would be 18 x $25.00 = $450.00 + the 100 from the organizer . So now $550.00 is starting to look like a decent Sunday. Then of course the archived video will sell again over the years to others on the teams who want the video for posterity

Josh Bass
February 11th, 2015, 09:54 AM
what about time spent burning all those discs, packaging, etc.?

Bruce Dempsey
February 11th, 2015, 10:08 AM
I have duplicators and use mailing sleevs so it's not an issue time wise and happy to have the work

Ken Diewert
February 11th, 2015, 11:21 AM
Personally, I've never replied to a CL ad, and it's rare that I would even look at them. Legitimate clients (at least in my market), don't look for a video professional via craigslist. I'm fortunate that I have forged some lasting relationships with good clients over the last 9 years. But I also had other sources of income... And now, through service, perseverance, and a relatively good reputation - I can nearly rely on my business income. I can at least be choosy about the work that I do, or not do.

When I came out of film school in 1992, the cost to buy-in to the video production game was about 70k for a broadcast quality video camera, and about 150k in edit suite - or over 100 and hour to rent it.

The reality is that the world, she is a-changing... just ask pro photogs who used to command big dollars, about how their field is now littered with amateurs doing very nice work for very cheap prices. I was talking to a nice photographer the other day, who shoots weddings for 375.00!!! and she does nice work. I pleaded with her to charge more, telling her that she is devaluing the service.

But, Free country - Free enterprise... What used to cost tens of thousands, now costs thousands, and what used to cost thousands, now costs hundreds.

Kevin McRoberts
February 11th, 2015, 11:35 AM
CL is certainly a grab bag. Plenty of aspiring hip hop producers and indy zombie film directors with no money that can somehow promise excellent future contacts, but also the occasional really good opportunity. My current largest client, who four years later books enough business to almost double my circa-2008 full time salary, was secured by responding to a Craigslist posting.

I used to comb through rolls of half dollars and quarters looking for the odd pre-'64 silver coin... there might be an analogy there.

Josh Bass
February 11th, 2015, 12:03 PM
handful of legit jobs over the last 13 years for me via CL. reality may be what was stated above, but in that case gear prices need to fall drastically (even MORE drastically) to make it viable for anyone to make a living that way.

Ken Diewert
February 11th, 2015, 08:56 PM
My current largest client, who four years later books enough business to almost double my circa-2008 full time salary, was secured by responding to a Craigslist posting.

I used to comb through rolls of half dollars and quarters looking for the odd pre-'64 silver coin... there might be an analogy there.

True... I once shot a 'celebration of life' after first turning it down. The subject of the celebration was the CEO of a fairly large company. Said company needed some video work shortly after, and called me. They have been a great and regular client for over 5 years now.

And my now largest client started with a very small job. So go figure...

I guess when we pan for gold (or silver quarters), we just have to figure out which are the best rivers to stand in.

Josh Bass
February 11th, 2015, 09:31 PM
I have not had one of those success stories. My two "regulars" are people I met through my more legit freelance work, all my cheapos and freebies never panned out to anything.

David Barnett
February 13th, 2015, 09:18 AM
I dunno, I think being are being hard on the OP. In theory, were taxed on our wages. So $100 is $70 real dollars. Of the $70, at least $10 would be spent on gas, so it's making $60. Shooting 3 90 minute games = 5 hours time at least being there (probably more like 6 but I'll throw them a bone) as there are likely breaks between games, plus showing up minimum 15 minutes early to setup & be sure you're there in case traffic etc.. So 5 hours @ $60 = $12hr just for shooting.

Then factor in editing (WTF) the highlights, granted simple editing but 3 seperate games would be a PITA. I'd put that at 2 hours. Then exporting & uploading1 hour. And anyone who's done jobs remotely similar to this knows there's an extra hour of BS in there somewhere, so it's up to 10 hours time.

10 hours $60 = $6 hour??

No thanks. Sure maybe a high school or college kid may take this on looking for gas or beer money.... but they'll quickly learn it really wasn't that well worth their time.

Ken Diewert
February 13th, 2015, 11:22 AM
Someone will do this job, at that price. When you look at who many cameras have been sold, and how many NLE systems are in use, - well, it's inevitable that someone will do it. Maybe a kid still living in his parents basement, attending youtube university (not that there's anything wrong with that).

What's sadder, working for 6 bucks an hour, or paying $50,000 to go to film school to make 6 bucks an hour.

Technology has made Video production a commodity. While we rant about making cameras cheaper, we are lowering the barriers of entry for our competition. Lots of competition... It's all good, because the other side of that equation is that every company now looks at shooting promotional videos, and cheap bandwidth has allowed everyone to play. But these companies want pro's, not joe's... to represent their brand. That's where we come in.

Josh Bass
February 13th, 2015, 04:07 PM
I think the saying is "water finds its own level."

Chances are, the people who work for this little are really not very experienced/good --though I suppose it's possible a pro could fall on hard times/become really desperate-- but I would think for the most part people working for this little are very new to the industry or just not that good and have never earned "professional" rates, etc. and so think this is normal. You know there are CLIENTS who turn people down when they come in too low on a quote 'cause it sets off red flags to the client that this vendor may have no idea what they're doing, right????

Likewise, chances are clients who pay rates like this, while expecting something not to be TERRIBLE, are not expecting Hollywood-level cinematography/production values. Again, I'm sure occasionally they are, but those things will self-correct after one or two shoots and they'll realize money offered = skill level found.

Pros who command higher rates will simply ignore gigs like this and clients with very low budgets will likely not try to hire those folks anyway. So the low budget people and the high budget people on both the client and the vendor side will find each other, basically, one occasionally crossing over into the other, and harmony will continue in the universe. Dig?