Chris please feel free to replace camera links with Canon press releases. I can't find them yet.

Canon develops own video format targeting 4K professional video camcorders: Canon develops 4K video format XF-AVC at DV Info Net (http://www.dvinfo.net/news/canon-develops-4k-video-format-xf-avc.html)

Canon XC10 press release, US and UK versions: Canon USA Announces XC10 4K Camcorder at DV Info Net (http://www.dvinfo.net/news/canon-usa-introduces-xc10-4k-camcorder.html)

Canon UK product pages for the Canon XC10: Canon XC10 - Cinema EOS Cameras - Canon UK (http://www.canon.co.uk/for_home/product_finder/digital_cinema/cinema_eos_cameras/xc10/)

https://youtu.be/Gaw_df_R0_c

https://youtu.be/0BLEzbHPL7Y

Unleash 4K video recording with the all new XC10 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbTd5DbSk_g)

The new family of codecs looks interesting, as much for what is (currently) left out as for what's included. The 10-bit 4:2:2 Intra-frame 4k is going to really excite some people, but why isn't there a long-GOP 4k version, and why is 30P the highest 4k frame-rate? I think there must be more to come as Canon fill in the rest of their 4k range.

The 1" chip in the new XC10 looks promising. I can imagine 4k XF200 and XF300 replacements being built around it, hopefully with more efficient long-GOP 4k recording and, maybe, 50/60 fps 4k??

No Long-GOP option for 4K in XF-AVC is going to really hurt longform productions like concerts. We also don't need another XAVC that isn't compatible with Sony. It's Canon MXF all over again.

The XC10 looks like it uses 8-bit Intra only recording, not Long-GOP. It seems like it uses 310mbps for 8bit 4:2:2 and 410mbps for 10bit 4:2:2.

And big miss is the lack of 50p/60p on the C300mkII. It will not qualify for Discovery's acquisition requirements.

The rumors were spot on.
4K internal, fixed lens, C100 form factor, about $2,500. Exactly as I'd heard.
One odd omission: a hand strap. Pretty much every video camera/lens has a hand strap. Just so you won't be as prone to drop the camera.

Chris please feel free to replace camera links with Canon press releases. I can't find them yet.

Much appreciated, Monday -- as you can see, I have dressed up your post a bit. Many thanks!

Kudos to Canon for making a companion video camera with proper ND filters in this segment instead of yet another stills camera. No doubt it's a quiet lens with AF, de-clicked and incremental iris as a video camera should be. Even leaping away from the DSLR "squeeze-to-hold" ergonomics and fixed back view screen.

Odd as it seems though, I think that lack of strap is ruinous. It's why I dumped all my DSLRs and won't buy another. The hand can't use the fingers when they are squeezing the grip and without the strap, the palm can't free the fingers as a proper video camera does by holding the camera. Yes, the left hand can hold the camera just like a DSLR so then what's the point? So close and yet so far. Hope I'm wrong and it ships with one.

C300mkII actually looks a lot better than I had expected. I think they've certainly done enough to prevent a tidal wave of C300 owners switching over to the Sony FS7.

The XC10 has me on the fence though. On the one hand I love the fact that they have stepped away from the "hybrid" mentality of mirrorless cameras like the GH4 and A7s to make a purely video-orientated camera - and one which you should easily be able to pull out of the bag and start shooting on without switching lenses, fiddling with rigs and EVFs, etc. On the other hand, it baffles me that they seem to have taken some of the things we hate about shooting with DSLR's (poor layout, no XLR's, 8-bit) as well as the main things that caused us to abandon traditional camcorders (small sensor, fixed lens) and combined them into this thing. On one hand I can imagine this being in my bag as a grab-n-run kind of camera, but on the other hand I can't help wondering why this in not in a XF200 type body with proper audio and a camcorder-layout.

I like the xc10 for about $1500. For $2500.... Naaaah.

I just wish the XC10 had a faster lens - or an EF mount so I could put any (Canon) lens on it...

Agreed. I'd much rather have it shorter and faster with a continuous aperture.

Sony and Panny for example...

I like the xc10 for about $1500. For $2500.... Naaaah.
I guess that's where the price will settle, but not for a few months at least. Remember how much the Sony RX10 and Panasonic FZ1000 dropped over time. Plus, the price of the much-rumoured but not-yet-announced Sony RX10-Mk2, when/if it emerges, will have a big impact on the XC10's street price

No Long-GOP option for 4K in XF-AVC is going to really hurt longform productions like concerts. We also don't need another XAVC that isn't compatible with Sony. It's Canon MXF all over again.

The XC10 looks like it uses 8-bit Intra only recording, not Long-GOP. It seems like it uses 310mbps for 8bit 4:2:2 and 410mbps for 10bit 4:2:2.

And big miss is the lack of 50p/60p on the C300mkII. It will not qualify for Discovery's acquisition requirements.

The XC10 has an mechanical shutter to minimize rolling shutter effects

I like the xc10 for about $1500. For $2500.... Naaaah.

$2500 is really pricey for a camera that has a fixed, non-interchangeable lens with no power zoom, and offers a maximum resolution of only 12 megapixels. I realize megapixels aren't everything, as a well-engineered sensor that is sized properly can produce better images than one with more megapixels.

I've seen reports the suggested retail price of the XC10 is going to be closer to $1999USD than $2500.00. But the competing Sony and Panasonic models are going for around a grand or less - although the Sony doesn't offer 4K video.

Looks like Canon are just trying to cash in on the 4K craze and trying to charge more for it, as usual. It's interesting to see that Canon haven't even tried to offer a dedicated pro-grade 4K camcorder, while Sony and Panasonic have already done so.

Bottom line, Canon aren't going to find many buyers at their proposed price point. If they chop the price to $1299, they may have a chance of scooping up a few people who otherwise might opt for a Sony RX10 or Sony FZ1000, given that these cameras are consumer grade, as is the XC10.

Lately Canon have seemed to be in a pattern of being a day late and a dollar short and only offering incremental to modest improvements in their products.

XC10 specs don't show 24p mode in HD. Also, no viewfinder.
Ken

... Also, no viewfinder. Ken
Not as such, but there is a "loup" to go over the rear screen which has much the same effect

And at least the LCD display articulates, so that if you want to change the viewing angle with the loup attached, you can. That should make the loup an attractive and useful proposition for users that work in really strong lighting conditions and a simple viewfinder shade isn't enough.

Flaws aside, the XC10 is looking to me more like a poor man's C100.

Lately Canon have seemed to be in a pattern of being a day late and a dollar MORE.....

Fixed that for you... :)

Have to say I'm disappointed by the lack of a remote jack on the XC10... no LANC / Control-L. As you all know, I'm the poster boy for remote lens controllers. Although in this case I suppose you could gaff-tape your iPhone to the tripod pan handle and connect via WiFi.

But it just ain't the same!

The XC10 could be interesting for budget green screen work. It's 4:2:2. It's not 10-bits, but it is 4K. That could provide very clean detail for keys intended for 2K renders. (From an information point of view, quadrupling the pixels is similar to adding two more bits of information.)

Further, the 1-inch sensor is something like a 1.7x crop factor compared to APS-C. This may limit low light shooting and shallow DOF effects, but those aren't critical for green screen anyway. It's expected to light things well in a GS studio and it's generally better to keep the foreground object sharp for a crisp key.

Regarding the C300 mkII, it could be really sweet. I've rented the FS7 a couple of times and I love the high-speed shooting for b-roll, but I'm not in love with the look. It's not bad by any means, but there's something that says "electronic video" to me. With the new C300 offering 120 fps, killer dynamic range, less rolling shutter, native EF lens mount (I've broken a Metabones adapter), and the Canon look is a nice combination. I'll be curious to see the local daily rate...

The XC 10 has a strange mix of features.

* High bit rate proprietary H.264 codec (400plus Mbs) That should be fun to edit! :)
* But has a slow lense 5.6 on telephoto!
* Canon log - Make matching other C EOS cameras easier
* But no add on module for professional xlr and video ports

And requires expensive media CFast 2.0. at $400.

Comparable cameras from Panasonic sell for less than $1000.00 I feel $2,500 is way overpriced for the feature set.

Cfast cards will get bigger and the price will go down faster than the Sony cards.....also, after the C300 MK II comes out and you are out shooting in the sticks, or just not a big city, and you suddenly need to get a card reader, chances are you'll be more likely to find a Cfast reader at a computer store than a Sony card reader........

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

I dont know what market its geared towards. The press release saysbit would be good for eng work but i have a hard time believing that. It looks like it has all the problems of shooting with a dslr. No proper audio, a viewfinder that doesnt swivel down, the lack of a hand strap really stumps me. No bueno canon, no bueno. This makes me want to keep wielding my xf305 even longer.

This camera was made for helicopters, gimbals, small/ tight situations, and people looking for an easy 4K hybrid camera that can shoot real stills......complaining about it not being a full feature camcorder (like a XF305) makes no sense. We've already had multiple phone calls from people with Quadcopters asking about specs and availability.

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

Don't count on CFast taking off in terms of being able to find them. One of my NYC buddies took absolutely forever to find CFast cards for his URSA. They're still, at the moment, a rarity.

Have to say I'm disappointed by the lack of a remote jack on the XC10... no LANC / Control-L. As you all know, I'm the poster boy for remote lens controllers. Although in this case I suppose you could gaff-tape your iPhone to the tripod pan handle and connect via WiFi.

But it just ain't the same!

I too, was surprised to see that the camera has no LANC facility. Come on, Canon, what are you thinking? Cameras costing half what the XC10 will cost have a LANC jack. Maybe they dropped the LANC fearing that if they included it in the XC10, it would cannibalize sales of the C-series cameras.

I could rip the rc10 apart but I'm really saving all my energy for whatever blackmagic announces on Monday.

Having said that, I'll probably buy one when they hit a massive price drop like the M camera . It does look like a great consumer camcorder.

I too, was surprised to see that the camera has no LANC facility.Maybe we can get VariZoom to build a controller using USB.

I dont know what market its geared towards. The press release saysbit would be good for eng work but i have a hard time believing that. It looks like it has all the problems of shooting with a dslr. No proper audio, a viewfinder that doesnt swivel down, the lack of a hand strap really stumps me. No bueno canon, no bueno. This makes me want to keep wielding my xf305 even longer.

The LCD panel does tilt down. You can add the viewfinder to it, if you like.
I agree about the hand strap. Strange omission.

Maybe we can get VariZoom to build a controller using USB.

Forget that... I'll build you a controller using steam and some sort of geared chain drive.

Okay, but there's gotta be leather.

That's like saying... "let's go to Vegas" "ok but there's gotta be booze. "

Well OBVIOUSLY there would be leather!

Damn... Now I'm actually designing it in my head...

The 2 cameras are totally different.

Chris, I think you should split the discussion into two right now, before it becomes bloated and difficult if not impossible to follow.

Regarding the codec, Canon missed the opportunity to implement the newer H265 codec and leapfrog the competition.

Regarding the codec, Canon missed the opportunity to implement the newer H265 codec and leapfrog the competition.

Far too early to implement H.265 for production use. The ASICs don't exist yet to process it fast enough and the codec is very early stages and lacks a "High" profile.

With Canon it's always a bunch of people looking for that one reason to make the product stand out from its peers and when it is not Canon it's always a bunch of people looking for that one reason to make it a no-go.

While we still need to see more real world footage from the XC10 to see how it actually performs (I only have seen one sample video from Canon so far which did show some not so good highlight handling) but 2,5K is a very steep price for a hybrid camera with such a slow lens at the tele end and as I understand it doesn't take raw photo's either. Not sure who is going to spend this amount of money considering what the competition is offering, 1,5K would be a more reasonable price

The 2 cameras are totally different.

Chris, I think you should split the discussion into two right now, before it becomes bloated and difficult if not impossible to follow.

Yes, please, Chris, do this.
This thread is becoming difficult to follow. I'm never sure which camera someone's talking about.

I'm one of the suckers sniffing around the XC10. I'm not happy about the price, not sold on the look, and not crazy about the f/5.6 at the tele end, but I'm still at least a little bit interested.

Presumably the price will decrease soon. We'll see.

The thing is, I don't have a 4K camera and I'm heavily invested in Canon, so the XC10 seems like a natural gateway drug. I suppose anyone who already has a C100 or C300 Mk I or even a 5D2 or 3 might be thinking the same way -- "I can use my C100 for most things. I can't afford a 1DC or C300 Mk II. For the rare times I need a 4K solution, there's the XC10. It's not as good value as an FZ1000 or GH4, but the colours should match more easily, and that's really important to me."

Anyone who has Canon DSLRs will likely have a lot of LP-E6 batteries lying around, so that helps also.

Chris/Mods,

Another vote for splitting out this thread into sections:

New C300MkII
New XC10
New XF-AVC Codec

Chris/Mods,

Another vote for splitting out this thread into sections:

New C300MkII
New XC10
New XF-AVC Codec
Sounds like time for a Canon 4K sub-forum, in that case...

Done: Canon XC Series UHD Camcorders Forum at DV Info Net (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xc-series-uhd-camcorders/)

Chris, I think you should split the discussion into two right now

Doing. Stand by.

Edit: okay, I think I've split out all of the C300 Mk. II comments and those have been merged into an existing thread located at: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-cinema-eos-camera-systems/527717-c300-mark-ii-announcement-discussion.html

So now, *this* thread is strictly the XC10 and its XF-AVC codec.

Regarding the codec, Canon missed the opportunity to implement the newer H265 codec and leapfrog the competition.

This is a distribution codec, only 8bit 420.

XAVC or XF-AVC have different purpose.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for doing this all so quickly. One thing, in what is now Post 10 of this XC10 thread, I posted 2 highly useful walkaround videos that Canon USA issued yesterday about the C300MkII.

Obviously, those really belong in the new thread just about the C300MkII, not this thread. Cheers and keep up the good work.

D'oh!! How could I have missed that? Fixed -- thanks,

Completely baffled by the XC10. IMO, it's neither a good still-image camera (according to specs on B&H, only does JPEG!) nor a good video camera (lacks so many features).

I suppose this hybrid and the numerous compromises will still appeal to some. But I have to wonder just how big of a crowd did Canon forecast for this model? I just can't see it selling very much.

^ It has a broadcast codec, good controls, mechanical shutter "to eliminate rolling shutter" for better cadence, all of which no other 1" camera has. Now the question is if the mediocre video sample was shot with a limited DR setting like EOS DSLR and the camera can do much better with wider DR settings?

Does the mechanical shutter actually work for video or is it just for stills?

My original source has it wrong. The mechanical shutter is only for stills. Sorry to get your hopes up. Mine were.

On the specs it states that 5axis stabilization works for HD.
Does anybody know if there is some other kind of stabilization in 4K or none at all?