So I got into a little debate today about whether a supposed 25,000 dollar wedding video was worth that much money. (to me, in my opinion) Said fellow decided to find a video of mine and publicly link it saying "here is a 2k video vs a 25k, see the difference?" Super professional, I know.

Anyway, this got under my skin in that I want to improve and its not always possible by just looking at your own work.
So in the spirit of improving, I'm going to link one of my best "only 2k budget" videos. Feel free to point me in the direction of some things I could improve on - whether its technique, direction, etc.

Oh and 30p I guess is for novices, as I'm told as well.
I surely don't want to " Keep being average and. striving for mediocrity. " as I was told to do so.



Kelsey & Jonathan on Vimeo

I found your video more personal and less staged. The initial storytelling about how they met was nice.
There was a powerful moment when the bride got choked up and had to compose herself. That was way more real than what we saw in the $25k version.
Dancing scenes were nice. If you want dramatic vistas, just get a drone, but keep capturing the real moments and don't feel compelled to gild the lilly.

Yeah I took the link out cuz I'm not trying to turn this into a pissing contest. I appreciate your honesty. Its frustrating to be looked down at, I'm sure everyone knows that feeling :)

Could you pm me the link to the 25k version? It's easier to give my opinion, for what it's worth, about something if I can see what you are talking about.

Eh here I'll just link it. I mean I've never seen such a high budget video before and it is pretty darn good.
The guys very good obviously at what he does. It does help to you know, be shooting in a island tropical paradise though lol

Bansi & Edward, An Elopement in St. Lucia on Vimeo

Hey James. Your video is excellent. As for the super expensive one, I dont know of anyone who would even consider paying that ammount. It is very well crafted, but 25,000$. I guess its up to the individuals on what they spend there money on, cant see it myself

Hey James.

Your video is an excellent wedding video. It focuses on the couple. The second one is an excellent video too, but seems more attention is given to the place than on the couple, in my opinion. Made me think of the Travel Channel. Stephen mentioned "dramatic vistas" a couple of posts above.

Almost like it was made for marketing purposes. Pacific Pictures could pitch it to the Department of Tourism for St. Lucia maybe. Sell more destination weddings to the island.

OK. I may get hate for this but as far as a wedding video goes, the $25,000 video is CRAP. It's a boring travel infomercial. Half of the shots could come from stock footage and have nothing to do with the wedding. If I paid $25,000 for that I'd be pissed. For $25,000 I would expect to see a well crafted story about the bride and groom, leading up to our wedding, and concluding with a well thought out ending that gave that "too be continued" feeling you see when you know a sequel is coming. That's just my opinion but I did not find the $25K video entertaining at all.

I should say I don't do wedding videos. Mostly narrative movies and documentaries at this point.

Definitely a showy travel promo rather than a wedding video! I like James's one much better it's far more personal and about the couple, not the venue. I guess a chunk of the $25K went to airfares and 5 star hotels for the crew too?? Our average wedding here is $25K ..not the video, the ENTIRE wedding so they might allocate 10% for video if you are lucky ...obviously this couple had more money than they knew what to do with ...I guess if you are earning millions a year, 25K is pocket money!!

I have always wondered if Bill Gates had a wedding video?? I wonder what he paid (or offered) No video is worth $25K ...for me that's simply a big status thing for rich couples saying "Look how much we paid for our wedding"

Man I'll probably get crap for this but I'm not sure what you people are watching.
That expensive video is great. Don't hate on someone because they have figured
out how to do great stuff and get paid for it. James, your video was good as well,
very good, but not at the level of the other one. Of course with 25 grand you can have
extra shooters and drones and 3 axis gimbals to get different stuff then you can as a 1
person show, so you shouldn't feel bad. It's like comparing TV network coverage of
a football game with 5 shooters to a local station with 1 guy. Of course the higher budget
one is going to look more polished. You did fantastic for $2500 and to be honest I think you
should charge more. Also remember it's a different style. I've done a couple
'elopement destination' weddings and the bride actually WANTS that 'travel
promo' feel.......as a big part of one of these weddings for them, is about being able
to look back and remember how cool the location was.

As for cost, I agree, 25 grand is a lot for a wedding video. But remember, things are
relative. Like cars. I personally don't see why anyone ever spends more than 8 grand on
a car. I buy a good, low mileage used car and it gets me around just as good as my
next door neighbor's 33 thousand dollar car does, only mine doesn't have a power
moonroof, backup camera, Bluetooth connector and in dash GPS with voice navigation.
I could care less, it has four wheel drive and everything works, I feel he spent way too
much. He values the extras enough to pay for them. Also remember, many wedding
photographers charge quite a bit.......

As a video professional, I'm always trying to educate clients on why videos may
cost more than they think. I do promo videos and have charged clients as much as
$10 thousand. Why should they pay that when there is someone else who will do
it for $500? If they can't see the value in my videos over the cheaper ones they shouldn't!
I have done something similar, showing my cheaper competitor's video, for a company,
next to my video for the same company. Only in my case, I don't like to start pissing
contests either, so I refused to say who had produced either video. I didn't even say that
one was mine. Instead I said that here were two videos. I said I knew one had cost
significantly more than the other, and if you as a business person really couldn't tell much
difference, you should be hiring whichever company charged you less! I left it at that.
So I don't think the 'expensive' guy should have done what he did to you, I consider that
extremely uncool. No reason to look down on anyone. Everybody has their own
journey and is at a different place in life. And if you had their budget and crew,
who knows what you could pull off?

EVERYTHING in that video was staged, everything, there is not a single moment of raw emotion, it's just a very pretty video in a stunning location for a couple that has way too much money to spend for a video that is all about themselves, I mean where are the guests, family, friends?? :)

Pacific pictures did city of lakes together with still motion years ago and his kind of work is heavily story driven but there is hardly any real emotion involved, it's very often scripted and staged up to a point that it looks like a commercial, he has the intention to make it look like a real movie but for me it's as hollow like it can be, like a shiny christmas tree ball that when shattered leaves nothing but thin air.

He does however seem to attract the filthy rich that are willing to pay him a filthy amount of money for such a production so from a business point of view he is briljant, he probably is having a laugh at us 2,5k charging videographers. :)

I"d suggest to watch some workshops from the Ray Roman a like guys, his work is not "that" special but because he gets to shoot in exotic locations and work for very rich people you can get an idea what's behind that, there is no secret formula to become a 10k+ charging videographer, much is about marketing and how you present yourself to the client but also luck is involved as well.

edit: at 04:56 is the only part that was real when she walks up to the groom and priest and you see the groom smile, it only felt so much out of place inbetween all that fakery he better would have left that part out.

as a big part of the wedding is being able to look back and remember
how cool the location was.

I think a big part of a well made weddingvideo is being able to look back and remember why a couple fell in love with eachother in the first place, so when they have lost that love after years of being together they can look at the video again and remember, only if the location had the main focus then their marriage is lost anyway. :)

EVERYTHING in that video was staged, everything, there is not a single moment of raw emotion, it's just a very pretty video in a stunning location for a couple that has way too much money to spend for a video that is all about themselves, I mean where are the guests, family, friends?
You are confusing the types of videos you do and putting those values in here.
At least when I have done these, there are no 'guests, family and friends'. If
there are, it's two or three people max.
That's kind of the idea behind these 'elopement destination' videos.
A totally 'non traditional' wedding.

I think a big part of a well made weddingvideo is being able to look back and remember why a couple fell in love with eachother in the first place, so when they have lost that love after years of being together they can look at the video again and remember, only if the location had the main focus then their marriage is lost anyway. :)
I mean again, I understand, but that is not what these people want. I edited my original post there,
because the reason many of these people are doing these 'elopement' ceremonies, is because they
want to go to a unique location, so that is what is important to them, NOT
a big, traditional wedding with lots of people.
I certainly don't have the people who fly in a helicopter up onto a glacier
and then dogsled back to an ice cave for a ceremony asking me:

'Make sure you get the interview about how we met at the start of the video!'

It's just a different style of video. It reminds me of the 'short form' vs. 'long form'
arguments. You may have clients that insist on 45 minute long videos without
missing a single moment, but many of mine don't want that, and instead
want a short 4 minute version to pass around on facebook. Nobody's is
necessarily 'better'. Although those 'sleek, polished' ones are expensive to make.
Drones, steadicams, 3 axis gimbals....none of that is cheap.
But 'expensive dude' needs to learn a little humility too. You don't need to go around
talking junk about other people and their work, and tell them to:

'keep being average' and 'strive for mediocrity'

That's just uncool.

Both videos were very good in totally different ways, but looking at both I would be more interested in knowing what the actual nett profit was from the $25k wedding compared to the $2.5k one. The personal satisfaction of a great product is one thing, but if you are doing it for a living, so in the income.

Roger

Am I the only one who thinks the audio levels are misjudged where the voice comes in?
For $25K I would ask for a remix. :-)

Colin, I agree, the audio in the $25K video is not good. The edit was also very generic and did not drive the "story". Again, it is nothing more than a quick cut travel commercial. I also thought the color grading was not done very well. If I were to really pick apart that video it would be a long list. This, again, is coming from the perspective of producing a narrative movie. The $25K video is not story telling. There is no connection between the shots and the dialogue. There is no subtext to what we are seeing and what is being said. A simple example of this is at about 1:30 where the words are "we share a connection, where Heaven meets earth." If this were being made like a "movie" The close-up of there hands holding, followed by a long shot of the sky and ground would have mad sense. Instead, we see a medium wide of the couple with tons of space between them, followed by a CU of running water. That shows no connection or understanding of how to evoke emotion in the viewer. There is nothing driving the view to a better understanding of what they are seeing and hearing.

I've worked on productions ranging from $2500 to $250,000. I can say that it is pretty easy to spend $25K on a well thought out production. But, that would mean that I'm bringing in a 5 ton grip trucks and have a good size crew. My editor, colorist and post audio people would be industry regulars and I'd probably elect to shoot on an Arri with some nice Zeiss or Cooke glass. Now, does it make sense to have a 20 person crew at your wedding, only the B & G can decide that. But, if they wanted it I'd definitely be willing to do it.

Lol if some one paid me 25k i'd produce a master piece no problem.

Reminds me of the time I was getting married and I said to my faince...

"Hey hun, look at this guy, he's $2,500. Pretty good right? But then I saw this guy. I'm not sure now... should we just throw another $22,500 into it and do it right??? No regrets. YOLO"


True story.


And I bet it happens ALL the time.

Said fellow decided to find a video of mine and publicly link it saying "here is a 2k video vs a 25k, see the difference?" Super professional, I know.

On the guys website who made the video there is a trailer where the groom is led into a stadium blindfolded by his bride and then the surprise is that the family is called to run from the sides to the center of the stadium where the couple was standing, this again was staged but the guy focussing on the couple for their reaction had a serious focussing problem because it was very out of focus. The footage was used because he seemed to have no other choice. So it appears that he is capable to produce 1500 dollar looking videos as well. :D

The thing is, he might have sold that video for a lot of money as well, including the totaly out of focus footage.

The comparison that was made between your video and his makes no sense because his was totally staged and probably shot over more then 1 day, I see in his videos when it's not staged it becomes mediocre so it's all up to setup time and then it's not fair to compare with a run and gun weddingvideo.

Give me that location and the resources and time I need and I will make a video that looks the same, the only thing I would not be able to is to sell it at 25k.

It all about marketing and as Noa says staging everything. Let's face it, there is no way you would accept a video that you have paid 25K for where the photog is in the shot or blocking a camera so it HAS to be carefully staged and choreographed much the same a when you see a wedding ceremony in a Soapie .. shots are perfect as they again are not only staged but also perfectly lit too.

Still I wouldn't mind making 25K to shoot a staged wedding. I wonder if they had a "real" wedding after the staged event???

I wonder if they had a "real" wedding after the staged event???

Yes, I"m sure they had that with probably out of focus footage as well. :)

.. shots are perfect as they again are not only staged but also perfectly lit too.

I actually was actually very unimpressed with the lighting in the video. Again, unmotivated lighting. Many of the shots are actually poorly light. The sequence of shots starting at 4:45 is a good example of something I wouldn't accept. Between 4:45 to 4:49 they are supposed to be the same scene from different angles. It starts out as a silhouette, the next shot the two are simply underexposed. He probably set his levels so that the white clothes wouldn't blow out. But the people are not exposed correctly. Then it jumps to what appears to be correct exposure. If that was his artistic choice it makes no sense is is simply distracting. Especially if everything is staged I would expect quite a bit more thought out lighitng. Sorry if I'm seeming harsh but it really burns me when someone tries to pass off work as so much better than others and really it is not that good IMHO.

I shot 30p too. I can tell the difference between 24p and 30p. Most people cannot. And for someone say it's only professional to shot 24p, that's just ignorant.

That's kind of the idea behind these 'elopement destination' videos.
A totally 'non traditional' wedding.

If "elopement destination" means having your wedding video completely scripted and acting the entire time when someone calls "action!" then I wouldn't call this a weddingvideo anymore. Everything in the video that was shown was fake, there is no real emotion at all, except for that 2 seconds which didn't fit in. But it seems some people are willing to pay a lot of money for it. It actually compared more to the photoshoot part of a wedding day, the part where the photog stages all poses to make the couple look at their best.

To come back to James question how to become better, I personally find American weddings much easier to shoot then Begian one, had to do one several weeks back and the ceremony part was so easy with one camera on each side and one in the back and with clear instructions to me and the photog from the bride to stay away from the podium where the couple and bridesmaids where standing. In Belgian ceremonies everyone stands in an almost circle making it almost impossible to shoot like was done at that American wedding.

To me it looks like there is more controll to get great shots like the headshots James got during the vows. To become better you need to analize the work of known videographers, what they do is not so difficult though it does require having 2 cameramen with equal skill and by using the same equipment. The video from pacific pictures is not necessarily a bad example eventhough it's "fake" but the compositions he used look great. You need to develop an eye for interesting cameraangles, you can put a camera right in front of a persons face and ask them to say anything or you can set the camera up much further away, like below random example I found, it's a picture taking with a photocamera but just to show what I mean: http://www.bigweddingspeech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/wedding-speech-bw.jpg

It's not only the "story" you are trying to tell but finding the right images to match with what's being said and finding a composition that creates interest, never go for the obvious but try to find ways to make a shot look epic.

Just look as much as you can how the big guys do it and borrow from them and then change a bit to turn it into your own style.

I am personally a fan of Velare's work, it's the way they visualize, the sound, the feel. I find their work superior to Pacific pictures yet I"m sure they are not able to charge 25K for it, so that last part comes from being a good business man being able to sell reading glasses to a blind man :)

Give me that location and the resources and time I need and I will make a video that looks the same, the only thing I would not be able to is to sell it at 25k.

Haha Noa you've already posted videos better than that $25K travel destination infomercial.


Seriously tho I agree you really cannot compare the two. Secondly, didn't the OP say the shooter travelled as well?

Right there if he's including a second shooter & assistant/3rd shooter for several days, both airfare & hotel/expenses for numerous days could be around $10k. So it's possible its more like a $15K wedding. Maybe the budget included things like renting the boat/locations, a day spent just on those drone shots & the entire 2nd half day/evening spent just for the sunset shots (setting up) etc. It could be more like a $10k wedding videos after all the bells & whistles. Its good, not mind blowing tho. Think of a real estate agent, those who sell multi million dollar homes are not as a whole overall "better" than those who sell more common homes, it's just a different workflow & connections you must have and circles you run in.

You can't compare the two. Kevin Shinhenian is one of the top guys in the industry. :)

Well, I definitely got more insight here than I did elsewhere. Yeah I was pretty heated that my work was being looked down on due to what I charge. I think its pretty offensive and unprofessional to do to anyone.

In regards to the videos - I agree they have their own style and with a wedding in such a paradise I can see why they would want such a focus on the setting.

I think people need to realize just because a wedding video had a high price tag attached doesn't mean its beyond the scope of something they can do. If you really look at the video, most people here could get a lot of those shots. When you have a huge budget and lots of TIME and PLANNING these videos become much more possible to do. No offense to Kevin Shinhenian, the videos an amazing wedding video but I mean these aren't some high end movie setups where it costs 50k and a week to prep for. Of course the grade is well done and its edited well but.. If you want to drool over some crazy movie shots and sequences, go watch the Dark Knight and post some screen caps.

I think the real skill here is the foresight and experience to plan to get some of these and to put it all together. The entire package comes together well. Like I said though, people are not getting the opportunity to produce work like this because their business model doesn't support it. Trust me, if we all had two days instead of 10 hours with our bride and grooms on a tight by the minute schedule, toss in a tropical paradise and drone and a fking sailboat, I'm sure our videos would look a lot more "high end" too.

****I do think certain people's heads are getting a little big in this market and I'm not afraid to point it out. Dear lord, I wish I had saved the argument and what some of these people were saying. Seems like if you get more than 6k for a wedding video you start to think your Christopher Nolan LMFAO***

I think a good dose of humility is in order for some people. It really blew me away. I would like to point out that Kevin Shinhenian actually isn't the one who called me out. It was some other guy linking his work. I'm sure Kevin Shinhenian is too busy prepping and planning for his next mega wedding to really give a crap what some random people on the internet are saying.

Anyway, I dont think anyone can put a price on something, it really depends your market and a certain minimum amount of skill. I'm sure there are handful of people out there who the same cirumstances could come up with something similar. I'd like to hand Taky Cheung the same budget and equipment and I bet he would make something similar.

And if its a million dollar wedding +, 25k isn't all that much to those rich people... so a major win for that business marketing, thats for sure.

Thanks again for all the thoughtful posts. If anything, all the drama just made me even more motivated to continue producing work and upping the production. Sooner or later I'll be posting from a tropical island myself!!!
I think what is really impressive is when someone is able to make such a beautiful video out of a not so picturesque wedding. Thats when your skill really shines.

Keep hustling guys and don't be afraid to work for a living regardless of what the guys say who rode the video market monopoly for the last 5-10 years.
We all have to start somewhere :)

****I do think certain people's heads are getting a little big in this market and I'm not afraid to point it out. Dear lord, I wish I had saved the argument and what some of these people were saying. Seems like if you get more than 6k for a wedding video you start to think your Christopher Nolan LMFAO***

Yeah, it does feel like they couldn't break into the film making industry so they do wedding videos and dress it up as some sort of high art cinema, but hey if they can make a living of it, then fair play to them.

If "elopement destination" means having your wedding video completely scripted and acting the entire time when someone calls "action!" then I wouldn't call this a weddingvideo anymore. Everything in the video that was shown was fake, there is no real emotion at all, except for that 2 seconds which didn't fit in. But it seems some people are willing to pay a lot of money for it. It actually compared more to the photoshoot part of a wedding day, the part where the photog stages all poses to make the couple look at their best.

OK, but what I was responding to was your criticism of the 'expensive' wedding for
'not showing friends and family'. And from my experience shooting these types of weddings,
there often ARE no friends and family to shoot video of! Last one of these I did was
for a bride who owned a beauty salon, and a groom who was a software developer.
They flew all the way to Alaska and were married on the Herbert Glacier. Trust me,
a big part of the reason they hired me, was to get landscape beauty shots and timelapses
and to show off the location they were being married in. Strange? While, these types of
weddings sure don't fit the 'nomal' mold either. There were exactly 4 people at
the wedding. The photographer, the officiant, the helicopter pilot and me. So yeah,
everything was staged. Getting into the helo, getting out of the helo, stepping over the
glacier river, walking away, glancing back at camera. It wasn't like there was a lot
of other material to draw on, thats for sure! No crowd of friends and family. No DJ.
No big party with drinking and dancing. Different than a 'docu' edit of the day, that's
for sure. Not so sure that is anything to 'look down on' because it was all staged though.
It's just different.

Lol if some one paid me 25k i'd produce a master piece no problem.


Yeah, in all seriousness, I think probably quite a few people on this forum could
produce something amazing with that kind of budget. When I have clients ask me
about what we can do in their video, I always tell them

'We can do anything you want. The only limit is your budget!'

Because quite honestly that is true. If they want something done that I can't do,
but they have money to throw at it, I'll hire an expert in the particular area of need
to come in and work with me. I've done this before several times on videos that have
a big budget. Not on a wedding video, but a person certainly could if a couple wanted
to pay enough.

Well, I definitely got more insight here than I did elsewhere. Yeah I was pretty heated that my work was being looked down on due to what I charge. I think its pretty offensive and unprofessional to do to anyone.

In regards to the videos - I agree they have their own style and with a wedding in such a paradise I can see why they would want such a focus on the setting.

I think people need to realize just because a wedding video had a high price tag attached doesn't mean its beyond the scope of something they can do. If you really look at the video, most people here could get a lot of those shots. When you have a huge budget and lots of TIME and PLANNING these videos become much more possible to do. No offense to Kevin Shinhenian, the videos an amazing wedding video but I mean these aren't some high end movie setups where it costs 50k and a week to prep for. Of course the grade is well done and its edited well but.. If you want to drool over some crazy movie shots and sequences, go watch the Dark Knight and post some screen caps.

I think the real skill here is the foresight and experience to plan to get some of these and to put it all together. The entire package comes together well. Like I said though, people are not getting the opportunity to produce work like this because their business model doesn't support it. Trust me, if we all had two days instead of 10 hours with our bride and grooms on a tight by the minute schedule, toss in a tropical paradise and drone and a fking sailboat, I'm sure our videos would look a lot more "high end" too.

****I do think certain people's heads are getting a little big in this market and I'm not afraid to point it out. Dear lord, I wish I had saved the argument and what some of these people were saying. Seems like if you get more than 6k for a wedding video you start to think your Christopher Nolan LMFAO***

I think a good dose of humility is in order for some people. It really blew me away. I would like to point out that Kevin Shinhenian actually isn't the one who called me out. It was some other guy linking his work. I'm sure Kevin Shinhenian is too busy prepping and planning for his next mega wedding to really give a crap what some random people on the internet are saying.

Anyway, I dont think anyone can put a price on something, it really depends your market and a certain minimum amount of skill. I'm sure there are handful of people out there who the same cirumstances could come up with something similar. I'd like to hand Taky Cheung the same budget and equipment and I bet he would make something similar.

And if its a million dollar wedding +, 25k isn't all that much to those rich people... so a major win for that business marketing, thats for sure.

Thanks again for all the thoughtful posts. If anything, all the drama just made me even more motivated to continue producing work and upping the production. Sooner or later I'll be posting from a tropical island myself!!!
I think what is really impressive is when someone is able to make such a beautiful video out of a not so picturesque wedding. Thats when your skill really shines.

Keep hustling guys and don't be afraid to work for a living regardless of what the guys say who rode the video market monopoly for the last 5-10 years.
We all have to start somewhere :)

Wait, let me get this straight. Some third party (not the guy who produced the expensive
wedding video) called you out? Maybe he should post a link to some of his OWN work and
compare it to your's instead of comparing your work to some 'third party's' work? I mean
it's pretty easy to sit back and criticize someone by pointing out that they can't do work '
that's as good as what George Lucas does too......SMH!

Not so sure that is anything to 'look down on' because it was all staged though.
It's just different.

I"m not looking down on those kind of weddings, I actually would like to shoot such a wedding, I only don't understand why a couple wants to fake an entire wedding video that has no real emotion at all. But when they would pay me 25K for it I honestly wouldn't care :)

I don't understand a lot of things people do. I just chalk it down to 'everyone is different. Some people
are even kind of crazy.' :)

I only don't understand why a couple wants to fake a wedding video that has no real emotion at all. But when they would pay me 25K for it I honestly wouldn't care :)

Because what else would appeal to someone who is vain and has money than their very own "wedding movie" starring themselves!

There is a lot of hate towards the expensive one. Wow.

I don't think it's hate, I was confused by believing it was the maker of that video that had belittled James and later on in this thread James said it was someone else that just used pacific pictures film as an example. I have the impression that some others where of this impression as well which led to more personal attacks towards the wrong address.

The 25,000$ is average at best. Honestly, the shots are nice but it's just a bunch of sterile stock shots. The emotion, flow, story etc... is severely lacking.

I think people forget that good =/= pretty shots.

I've seen plenty of samples from folks on this forum who capture the emotion and present a more engaging video than this.

Interesting to compare the 2 videos but in reality it's the old apples and oranges comparison.
The 2 weddings are completely distinct and the couples are clearly looking for different types of video and live in different worlds or realities.
I really liked James' video. I'd imagine he has very satisfied clients. The makers of the other video probably had happy clients too. At the end of the day what matters is that the couple are happy with the final product and you are happy with the money you receive for your efforts. Although we'd all like to earn more!

On another note, both films got me thinking about the shots I get. I thought both made great use of wide shots which is something I need to explore more. So thanks for posting. It got me thinking!