In case anyone is interested, the first chapter (32 minutes) of my five-hour PXW-Z90 master class training video series can now be streamed at Vimeo.

Doug Jensen's Sony PXW-Z90, NX80, and AX700 Master Class - CHAPTER 1 FREE on Vimeo

Thank you, Doug. That's it rented. I have the X70 but expect a lot will be the same.

Nice job on that video Doug!

For the outdoor shots, I couldn't see a lav mic anywhere. Did you have an overhead shotgun on you? The sound was good.

When you praised Sony's Phase Detection Auto Focus system....you said the PDAF could "track moving subjects better than I could manually". I almost fell out of my chair on that one! ;-)

I remember you scolding me for saying that same EXACT thing about Sony's PDAF only a few months back. Haha! I'm glad to see you finally agree with me! Just kidding Doug,...you know I gotta have some fun with that! ;-)

Of course I love manual focus and more than half my glass is Sigma, Rokinon and Canon cine manual-only glass. Focusing with "true" geared lenses with actual stops are a real joy. However, endlessly turning "fly by wire" lenses like these little guys?....uggg. It takes ALL the "feeling" of shooting full manual away. So when I grab my NX80 and see this PDAF do that wicked science that it does? I'm happy not to have to pull focus on that little "fly by wire" ring unless I KNOW I need too.

I miss my EX1R. When will Sony release a 1inch ENG camera with constant f2.8 and real geared rings? (or at least fly by wire rings that "feel" like true gears)

We NEED a real 4k, EX1-R replacement today.

I see chapter 15 talks SLog. I hope you have warned people just bow BAD SLog-3 is on these cameras. It's unusable in my opinion. SLog-2 IS "OK" if you are willing to pay the potential 8bit artifacts price for it. If you expose carefully, you can get the big dynamic range benefit from it...but I'd say there will be a 1 in 5 chance that "some" banding could hit you in 8bit 100mbp/s.

Again,..great video. Very, VERY nice job as usual.

CT

Cliff, the various threads about SLog-3 not working out for you... is that just for 8-bit codecs? I'm strongly eyeing the Z90 as an upgrade to my X70. And as I still only capture HD, my footage would all be 10-bit 4:2:2. Thus, assuming any banding or other issues would be minimized or eliminated.

Well? Let's look at the Sony 1inch-type Exmor RS sensor. Its georgous, for its size, it REALLY kicks ass. However, that guy puts out about 10.5 or possibly 11 stops of dynamic range on a "good" day.

SLog-3 is a 16 stop curve that is loosley based on Cineon gamma curve. What happens when you drop an 11 stop image into the middle of a 16 stop curve? It means you have a TON of 8bit stretching to do get it back to rec709. Plus as much as I love this sensor, its noise floor really shows itself in Slog-3. I invite anybody with these cameras to try SLog-3 and tell me this isnt right.

Now SLog-2 is completely different. SLog-2 maps highlights and blacks based on what the output of "that" actual sensor can provide. It does NOT match Cineon as it is "custom" curved for each sensor Sony makes.

So, on other words, SLog-2 uses the FULL brightness range of your scopes and doesnt leave "wasted" or "unused" bits behind. It doesnt clip whites at 94 IRE, it doesnt raise shadows to 15 or 20 IRE. In 8bit, is uses the full 0-255 bit values.

To say it another way, SLog-2 curves "ONLY" what your sensor can actually do (like 11 stops) and not allot more (16 stops that your sensor cant do) like SLog-3 does.

SLog-3 is ALOTT to ask of an 8bit CODEC. In 10bit?...no need to worry because you got 40 times the color depth (gradient steps) to play with.

Yes...8bit has the same exact noise as 10bit. (But in 10bit, the noise is better sampled...lol)

CT

oh,..p.s. I also owned the X70 and I loved it. I HATE .mxf wrapper with all my might but yeah, overall I loved that X70. I never once shot 1080 with it. For me, I stopped shooting 1080 about 3 years ago? I do everything in UHD today, even for stuff that is 1080 delivery. The NX80 was perfect for me. I take it with me while my Z150 just stays mostly at home now. The Z90/NX80 AF is sick, you will love it. Having HLG is very "interesting" and SLog-2 is nice...if you are very careful with it. You will find that the Z90 will give you much more dynamic range than the X70 ever could with it's mild Cine rec709-ish profiles. (plus, I'm MUCH happier with the NX80's industry standard standard .mp4 wrapper)

I have bought Doug's training series on the EX3, FS100, FS5, and now the Z90.
Everyone of these training series have come in handy. If it weren't for this information, I would of been at a loss trying to figure out some of the changes that are made from camera to camera.
Doug, Thanks for saving me a lot of frustration.

Having been away from the Sony world for several years, I found Doug's course exactly what I needed (as opposed to the impenetrable Sony manual). The chapters on picture profiles and s-log are well worth the very reasonable price of admission.

Well? However, that guy puts out about 10.5 or possibly 11 stops of dynamic range on a "good" day.


Doug mentions 14 stops in the video (S-Log I believe). Talking about falling out of my chair.

I do plan to rent those videos very soon as yes, the Sony manuals are brutal!

If one of the SLog solutions can provide up to 14 stops, that would be incredible. But even if around 12 or 13, I'd be very happy.

So far I love these classes.

Doug mentions 14 stops in the video (S-Log I believe). Talking about falling out of my chair.

14 stops on this 1inch-type Sony Exmor RS sensor? No, no...it was an accidental mistake. Sony FS700, FS7, F5, F55, FS5, A7S-II and A7R-III do "almost" 14 stops. These are large sensor cameras.

This camera will put out 11 if the sun, moon and stars are in perfect alignment.

30 seconds in on Chapter 15 on S-Log. He states 14 stops.I can't imagine that was a slip.

"If you really want to capture the full dynamic range of the Z90 there's no getting around the use of S-Log. Compared to the other gamma choices S-Log usually offers the best reproduction of deep shadow details, bright highlights and everything in between. The camera has 14 stops of dynamic range. And you need a powerful log curve to capture all that data."

Im sorry but that sensor has never tested 14 stops on any camera that has ever used it. Not from what I have ever seen or heard of. If anybody Googles it, they can see what it has performed with for everybody else.

It doesnt have the dynamic range of a large sensor Sony FS700, FS7, F5, F55, FS5, A7S or A7R.

If you go to DXO Mark and review their lab tests, you can look at all the cameras that use this 1inch-type RS model chips and they all measure around 12.5 stops in "raw photographs". This is the best measurement you can get on these sensors...raw sensor data in SINGLE captures. In video, these sensors all lose a stop or more.

"IF" Sony somehow pulled 14 stops off this sensor, that would be a big scientific and industry breakthrough. Every camera magizine woud have "Z90- 14 STOPS!!!" on the cover. It would be a HUGE game changer for such a small sensor. Sony would have THAT fact as the #1 headline selling point! They would print "14 stops of DR" right under the "clear image zoom" print. Even Super35 and Full Frame chips have a hard time getting to 14 stops.

It was an accident, I'm sure.

I'm sure Doug will resolve this when it gets back from the Olympics.

Since I have both the X70 and Z90 it look to me that the Z90 has more dynamic range. Nothing scientific but I noticed this when testing the various Z90 PPs in similar controlled condition I had used the X70 in. I thought maybe it was about a stop better but again not scientific. I wasn't comparing to any of the S-Logs though which could be a little bit better.

So the X70 always had a 10.5 to 11 stop sensor. That was never the problem. Its the rec709-ish Cine profiles that always limited its dynamic range. People have to realize that nobody can get 11 stops of DR with Cine profiles. The only way is to read the sensor and convert it is using a FLAT log curve Thiose Cine curves cant hold 11 stops, not even close. If your image doesn't look like crap, than you DON'T have 11 stops! If your image looks great on a standard monitor, that means you have 7 or 8 stops. Lol

So, the X70 sensor with a raw 11 stop linear readout gets "clipped" the second it's processed into any of the common X70 Cine or other rec709 gamma curves.

With the addition of SLog and HLG, that same linear 11 stop readout is then "bent" or "compressed" into a gamma curve that can actually hold 11 stops.

For this reason alone, I believe the Z90 and NX80 are HUGE upgrades over the X70.

And for me, that is really all that matters. A large enough jump over the X70 to upgrade. That plus the AF improvements move the Z90 from more of a "want" to a "need". Well, everything is ultimately a "want".

BTW checking his section on Picture Profile he mentions that the CINE Gammas have about 11 to 12 stops of Dynamic Range and that S-Log adds about 2 more stops.

Given that, I really don't think his comment about 14 stops is a mistake. Perhaps one might judge the dynamic range differently depending on how measured (noise floor for example) but it's clear that he's judging Cine Gammas as 11 - 12 and S-Log as about 14 (or maybe 13).

Greetings from Korea.
Hey, guys thanks for the nice comments. Just a quick message before I head out for the day.

Cliff may very well be correct about the DR. A reliable source told me 14-stops but I have no way of measuring that or verifying that myself. Perhaps I should have covered my ass by saying that in the video. But here is the key, if you watch my video I don't recommend shooting S-LOG with these cameras anyway. In fact, my feelings are even stronger on this point than may come across in the video. If you want the truth, S-LOG on these cameras looks like crap. So to me, the question of how much DR the cameras have is moot. I would never shoot with anything but one of the CINE gammas. I love the Z990, but not for it's HDR capabilities.

안녕
Annyeong

BTW checking his section on Picture Profile he mentions that the CINE Gammas have about 11 to 12 stops of Dynamic Range and that S-Log adds about 2 more stops.

Given that, I really don't think his comment about 14 stops is a mistake. Perhaps one might judge the dynamic range differently depending on how measured (noise floor for example) but it's clear that he's judging Cine Gammas as 11 - 12 and S-Log as about 14 (or maybe 13).

Originally, when rec709 was developed, it had arround 6 stops of dynamic range. This is what 95%+ TVs on Earth have their contrast calibrated for today. However, with knees and shoulders and light tonal curves ( i.e. brightness compression) we can squeeze in another stop or two at best.

This is why we cant have "normal" contrast and good looking images that 14 stops or 20 stops or 100 stops of dynamic range.....and have it still look beautiful....in rec709.

The more dynamic range you "compress" into rec709, the lower and lower,...and more terrible....the contrast looks and gets.

Thats why I say; "if you are truly monitoring a standard rec709 recording and you see that it is gorgeous with great saturation and contrast....you are NOT recording much more than 7 stops". Certainly not 14 stops!

14 stops will look horrible in rec709. As its SUPPOSED to. Thats the whole point of log gamma curves!

Now, with HLG?...its a sharp knee after 65-ish IRE Its not a rec709 image and needs a LUT to watch to "properly" on rec709. But, I gotta say that the way they created that knee, it doesn't look "that" bad when watching without a LUT. That's partially because below 65 or 70 IRE, it basically IS rec709.

I dont "know" this yet but I suspect that there "could" be an argument by some of us that it's OK to shoot in HLG and color grade for rec709 delivery. Why?...because HLG will not need "heavy" stretching to normalize it to a high contrast rec709 image. It should require less pulling and less strain on 8bit stair steps to increase the contrast.

Does this mean that it's "easier" on an 8bit CODEC than "full" log? (i.e.Slog-2?) Possibly so, because its' starting point is already closer to rec709 than SLog-2 is today.

We'll see....

CT

Greetings from Korea.
Hey, guys thanks for the nice comments. Just a quick message before I head out for the day.

Cliff may very well be correct about the DR. A reliable source told me 14-stops but I have no way of measuring that or verifying that myself. Perhaps I should have covered my ass by saying that in the video. But here is the key, if you watch my video I don't recommend shooting S-LOG with these cameras anyway. In fact, my feelings are even stronger on this point than may come across in the video. If you want the truth, S-LOG on these cameras looks like crap. So to me, the question of how much DR the cameras have is moot. I would never shoot with anything but one of the CINE gammas. I love the Z990, but not for it's HDR capabilities.

안녕
Annyeong

I will say that SLog-3 is horrible. I hate to say it but it's downright disgusting. I cant see how anybody on this forum could say it looks fine for them on their NX80/Z90. No chance in Hell.

But wait,...SLog-2 is "reasonable". "IF" you want 100% of what this sensor sees mapped form 0-255, than you CAN capture and get great benefit form that. BUT,...you must be willing to take the risk of having some possible banding. I have shot SLog-2 on the NX80 and RX10-III with fairly good success. I have pushed and pulled SLog-2 in post with 90% of everything being fine with no banding in 8bit. However, I also have say that I have occasionally gotten burned on "some" scenes with very "light" banding problems

I can also say without ANY doubt that 8bit 4:2:2 ProRes from this HDMI output will ABSOLUTELY grade better with less banding and compression artifacts than 8bit 4:2:0 XAVC-L/S. (It's sometimes hard to discern what is "true" 8bit banding and what is actually h.264 macroblocking and color cluster averaging)

I'd say use SLog-2...but very carefully...and dont use it for scenes that wont benefit from capturing 10 -11 stops. (like a well lit interview...studio stuff like that, or a cloudy/rainy day)

I agree with Doug that for "serious" Log recording, you need a 10bit color sampling and a durable 10bit CODEC. I have GH5 rig with true 10bit V-Log-L and FS700 12bit raw recording or to 10bit ProRes for that. (Its a relief to shoot freely in 10bit log with no worrying out in the field about what post is going to be like when you get home!!!)

CT

I guarantee, without any shadow of doubt, that anything someone wants to shoot with S-LOG2, S-LOG3, or HLG with the Z90 -- and spending all the time they want grading it in Resolve -- I can get a better image right straight onboard the camera with a simple WYSIWYG picture profile and no time in post spent grading at all. I guarantee it. And that includes HD.

And if I want to take that WYSIWYG image and grade it a little bit in post, I can make that look even better still.

I hear you Doug and I somewhat agree.

But...oh let's say "super bright" clouds. In the field, using a limited Cine profile, you might choose to clip them because you care more about that brown bear under a tree. And maybe that is the way you would have color graded that scene in post to rec709 "anyway". In this case, what you see is what you get. Nothing lost, nothing gained.

Or, "maybe" you shoot HLG and that brown bear under that YellowStone tree has the exact same exposure...but your clouds aren't clipped anymore and they have nice definition in them...you got them under the clip.

Now in post, you at least have the ability to change your mind on how to distribute those super whites. And,..Hell,..maybe you will take advantage of YouTube's new HDR upload ability today or down the road.

The argument for shooting Log over rec709 and WYSIWYG arguments applies to any and every camera that can shoot more dynamic range than it's limited Cine-type profiles or standard rec709 monitors can show.

Rec709 is here for the moment but it wont last forever. I think our high dynamic range (log and hybrid log) footage will last longer on our hard drives than rec709 TV's will on store shelves. ;- )

Its time to start thinking BT2020 or rec2020.

Not for today but for....tomorrow.

CT

Cliff, you're hypothetical scenarios might hold water with other S-LOG cinema cameras, after all I am a huge proponent of shoot S-LOG and/or RAW with my F55, FS7, etc. I don't shoot anything but S-LOG or RAW with those cameras. But what sounds good on paper falls apart with the small NXCAMs. Stop thinking about specific dynamic range issues and just focus on having a nice, high quality, representation of the scene -- and that's just not going to happen with S-LOG. What's the point of having whites that aren't clipped if the rest of the image looks like rubbish. Even major feature films and top-level television programs allow clipped hightlights at times. It is not the end of world and you shouldn't cut off your nose to spite your face. Dynamic range is not even close to the most important aspect of picture quality.

I won't be posting on this subject anymore because I know what I've seen with my own eyes and I don't need to waste my time trying to make the same point again and again. If someone chooses to disagree, they are free to shoot S-LOG all they want to . . . at their own peril.

"What's the point of having whites that aren't clipped if the rest of the image looks like rubbish."

I completely disagree with this statement. If you are trying to claim that SLog-2 or HLG on these cameras are "rubbish". They are NOT and I'm sure Sony would also agree with me on this. I know from your past posts that you are not a fan of Alpha cameras and using SLog on them either. They are not "rubbish". (although they "can" be if you under expose Slog incorrectly)


"Dynamic range is not even close to the most important aspect of picture quality."

I'm not sure if anybody here actually believes this either. Certainly not me. The ATRISTIC composition and shot framing abilities of the shooter and his/her ability to tell a story always trumps anything on the technical side. But, yes, high dynamic can help envoke a "wow" response from people that watch your material on an HDR TV. Have you been to Best Buy lately and seen a true HDR demonstration? I'm not talking about shooting 14 stops on your F55 and grading it to rec709. (something 99% of us do today) I'm talking about grading and watching it on a true HDR monitor. Among other qualities, the dynamic range plays ONE part of making you say "OMG,..that is beautiful".


"Cliff may very well be correct about the DR. A reliable source told me 14-stops but I have no way of measuring that or verifying that myself."

So this person told you the Z90 did 14 stops....and you actually believed this person enough to place that in your video? That didn't set off any alarms or questions in your mind like: "What?...this camera has 14 stops, the same dynamic range as my Sony F55 and FS7???" If your dynamic range performance opinion of the Z90 is THAT low, and given what you understand about the science of dynamic range,...than you should have called that person out and said. "Sorry, but that number sounds WAY off for a 1inch-type sensor." But for some reason, you ran with it anyway? Isn't this odd for somebody that believes this Z90's dynamic range ability is "rubbish"???

Another interesting thing to me about the Z90 is that months ago,...

I stated that Sony Phase Detection AF could track focus on my dogs running in my back yard faster than I could manually focus myself. You then proceeded to scold and chastise me for my manual inadequate focus pulling skills. Now that you have had a chance to actually USE Sony's PD-AF, you literally state in your video a 180 degree change. You now say that "Sony's AF tracks objects BETTER than you could manually track yourself" The very same thing you flamed me for saying?? Sorry,..that REALLY makes me laugh and feel vindicated. ;-)

Anyway....For anybody reading this. TEST SLog-2 and HLG for YOURSELF. Dont believe me or Doug. Shoot those two gamma curves in your backyard or shoot your pets with it and see if it's any kind of doomsday bomb in your video. Make sure to expose to the right +1 or +2 stops. Press it hard but dont allow it to clip what you care about. Take your test footage, use a good LUT as a starting point and grade it. Does your backyard or your cat look like true "rubbish"? Color grading can take some time to learn but you can get "good" and "solid" results from the Z90. No,..no,..not F55, F5, FS5 or FS700 good. But still very good anyway for a very small $2k camera. Do this with your A7s-II, A7R-III and A6500 too!

Last but not least,...I respect Doug and I know he is a good guy. I have shaken his hand at NAB at least three times that I can remember. Including 2017 and I'll very gladly do it again in April. He's even nicer in person than he appears to be in forums like this. I respectfully disagree with him sometimes on things like dynamic range and autofocus but I still respect him. (although, he seems to agree with ME on PDAF now today! ;-)

It's all good. Guys,...take what ANYbody says with a grain of salt but always confirm things for YOURSELF too.

We talk allot of "opinions" here and things that work for each of us. We have allot of long time "habbits" and pre-concieved notions that we talk about every day. But your mileage can always vary.

There is no "profoundly" SINGLE or ONLY way to do anything in this industry. May people sharp (including Hollywood DP's) break rules everyday.

CT

Ooooooh Cliff, there is so much I am tempted to say. I disagree with almost every word you've said. But I'm stepping away from this conversation. You can have the last word.

I actually don't "want" anybody to believe you or me. I'd rather people just try it for themselves and let THEM be the judge of their own camera.

Then have them come back and tell us what they find. ;-)

Doug, we both know that you and I could go 'round and 'round on these two topics for 100 years. Haha...

In the end, I know what works and doesn't work for me and you can say the same too! That's all good. I'm never going to say that anybody is "wrong" when they are doing something that works great for them.

I know an ASC DP that swears that any rolling shutter camera is "garbage"!! He only deals in global shutter cameras and prefers the Sony F65 because it has a "real" spinning mechanical shutter. In his mind, ALL rolling shutter camera's are "garbage". So I'm like,..."whoa...OK,..what can I say to that?" I cant really say he's "wrong"...right? But hey,..rolling shutter cameras work FINE for "me"!! (So, in a way,...we are BOTH right!...he hates them and I'm OK with them!)

Folks, just try it in your backyard and report back to us. It's about "you", not about "us".

Everybody has different tastes and expectations. If you are expecting FS7 quality,..you will be disappointed. If you are expecting iPhone quality,..you will be shockingly surprised.

Now,...if you have globlal shutter expectations and rolling shutter is "garbage" to you? What in the world can I tell that guy to change his mind? Do I try? Do I even care?

Nope!

You are an alright guy, Doug,...just don't punch me at the Sony booth this year! lol

CT ;- )

I thought I'd through this into the mix from Alister Chapman and 8 bit and S-Log 2

On the Sony A7s
Exposing and Using S-Log2 on the Sony A7s. Part One: Gamma and Exposure. | XDCAM-USER.COM (http://www.xdcam-user.com/2014/08/exposing-and-using-slog2-on-the-sony-a7s-part-one-gamma-and-exposure/)

and this on 8 bit.
Why It's Helpful To Over Expose S-Log, Especially If You Only Have 8 Bit Recording. | XDCAM-USER.COM (http://www.xdcam-user.com/2015/10/why-its-helpful-to-over-expose-s-log-especially-if-you-only-have-8-bit-recording/)

And this on the Sony A6300
Using S-Log2 and S-Log3 with the Sony A6300 (with LUT's to download). | XDCAM-USER.COM (http://www.xdcam-user.com/2016/05/using-s-log2-and-s-log3-with-the-sony-a6300-with-luts-to-download/)

While he doesn't think S-log 3 is viable for 8 bit he obviously feels S-Log 2 can work with proper (over) exposure and not pushing it too hard.

Alister is right. I have done it countless times myself in 3 or 4 years.

Yes, 8bit is NOT what I want either. I do allot of V-Log now in 10bit with the GH5 and 12bit raw to 10bit ProRes on the FS700. So yes,...Doug is right, 10bit is what you REALLY want for any log. There is a big difference in the amount of stretching and pulling you can do. I recognize this completely.

But this does NOT mean that you "can't" benefit from NX80/Z90 11 stop, 8bit recordings either. You CAN but you need to do it carefully.

Again,...don't listen to any of us. If you buy an NX80/Z90, take it out for some SLog-2 tests and judge it for yourself You will never know until you try.

Don't do a paying job with it yet, just shoot "throw away" stuff and give it a shot FIRST. Even if you only use it to understand how log works and use it to teach yourself log color grading...it's a great tool have and to learn and the grading principles are roughly the same on any log camera.

Actually, after years of SLog grading, when I switched over to Panasonic V-Log (which uses VariCam color science) I couldn't believe how easy V-Log was! The colors always lined up perfectly. For years, I had to fight SLog's green channel "twist" and was always fighting that green/blue hue in so many SLog recordings. (This is the common problem that makes green grass have that unnatural "radioactive" glow to it.)

But yeah,..if you learn SLog, then V-Log is a total cakewalk!

I'm a big fan of Alister Chapman. Sony trusts him to speak at the Sony pavilion about SLog and other Sony technology every year at NAB and at IBC.

CT

Cliff, as soon as you or Alister have some beautifully graded S-LOG footage from the Z90, ready to present to the world in all it's glory, I would love to see it. As an added bonus it would be great if you could shoot the same exact scene with your choice of PP 1- 6 (or any other gamma you might choose) to really illustrate just how much superior S-LOG is. I would absolutely love to see the testing that I'm sure you must have already conducted. Please let us know when this video is uploaded and ready for our viewing pleasure.

BTW, have you posted any Z90 footage yet that we could take a look at?

What will you be looking for? You will see a standard rec709 image with standard rec709 contrast. The same holds true if I shot something on a Sony F55, FS7, RED or Arri.

Look at any Hollywwod Blu-ray. All you see is standard rec709 on that thing. Yet, most movies are captured with much higher dynamic range cameras.

So yes....if your goal is to deliver rec709 ONLY. Than yes, just take a 15 stop Arri or RED camera and shoot in a (6stop) rec709 profile and expose EXACTLY in the field as you want the rec709 Blu-ray to look....and its a wrap. No expensive Hollywood colorist needed.

When you watch a 6-7 stop rec709 image, the viewer will NEVER know two things:

1.) What "more" did that camera see in the field with that 15stop ARRI camera that I "cant" see in rec709 today. Did the camera man under expose or over expose by a little bit? You and I will NEVER see those mistakes on a Blu-ray. Only the colorist saw it.

2.) What did the colorist actually "throw away" to grade this down to the Hollywood rec709 Blu-ray that I'm watching?

In other words, his camera caught his bear eating a dead animal under the tree...AND...100% of that amazing, sun blasted waterfall behind him. However, the colorist "chose" to "throw away" and blow out the waterfall and keep the bear instead for the 6 stop rec709 Blu-ray that im watching.

This is the beauty of 7-15 stop log capture. Its never to show the "viewer" 15 stops "today" on his 6 stop rec709 TV or Blu-ray. For that, just burn the ungraded log file to his Blu-ray,..Its so that the colorist has the ability to "choose" which 6 stops out of his 15 to use "today".

Every single Hollwood Blu-ray today shows us clippied highlights and crushed blacks...but those cameras caught allot more that we cant see because of rec709 limitations. Tomorrow, when those same movies are released on bt2020 systems, we will see allot more than we do today from a movie shot just a few years ago.

Going further....lets forget about rec709 for a second. With new bt2020 and rec2020 HDR TV's, the colorist has the luxury and ability to "throw away" MUCH less than he/she does for rec709 today.

How can anyone judge a log recording by looking at a HIGHLY LIMITED rec709 colorist "down-grade"?

Yes...a PERFECTLY exposed rec709 recording will produce a PERFECTLY exposed rec709 file on YouTube. How can I argue that?

But,...this is absolutely NOT the point of shooting log on ANY camera today.

What will you be looking for? You will see a standard rec709 image with standard rec709 contrast. The same holds true if I shot something on a Sony F55, FS7, RED or Arri.

Look at any Hollywwod Blu-ray. All you see is standard rec709 on that thing. Yet, most movies are captured with much higher dynamic range cameras.

So yes....if your goal is to deliver rec709 ONLY. Than yes, just take a 15 stop Arri or RED camera and shoot in a (6stop) rec709 profile and expose EXACTLY in the field as you want the rec709 Blu-ray to look....and its a wrap. No expensive Hollywood colorist needed.

When you watch a 6-7 stop rec709 image, the viewer will NEVER know two things:

1.) What "more" did that camera see in the field with that 15stop ARRI camera that I "cant" see in rec709 today. Did the camera man under expose or over expose by a little bit? You and I will NEVER see those mistakes on a Blu-ray. Only the colorist saw it.

2.) What did the colorist actually "throw away" to grade this down to the Hollywood rec709 Blu-ray that I'm watching?

Cliff,
Do you really believe what you said above?

Cliff, we obviously have two very different views of reality. HDR delivery is so low on my list of priorities it cannot be measured by any instrument made by man. I saw a homeless man on the corner yesterday with a sign that said "Will Shoot and Grade HDR" for food. He had no shoes.

And then I passed a production company that had a sign out front that said, "Going out of Business due to Shooting S-LOG on the Z90 instead of REC709". Sad, very sad.

Crunch all the numbers you want, fret about the specifications, complain why Sony didn't do this or that, all you want to. I'll wave to you as I pass by on my way to the bank. Anyone who really gives a crap about HDR or high-end production shouldn't even have a Z90 on their radar. It is a tiny, portable, very capable and fun to shoot with camera, but it is not an F55 or Alexa. Get real. We live in an a REC709 world, so get used to it. HDR is for NAB booths and Best Buy showrooms. Not forever, but for a few more years at least. In the mean time, I'm more concerned with billing clients for todays's needs.

And I'd still like to see your glorious footage showing us how S-LOG on the Z90 is so fantastic.

Cliff,
Do you really believe what you said above?

This was my reply to Doug's suggestions about high dynamic range in general. The idea about shooting rec709 in the field because that's what you are going to deliver anyway.

I shot a 14 video set of engineers doing lectures and training classes. There is no reason on planet Earth to shoot that in SLog. So I shot in Cine. Stuff like this? and weddings...general stuff like that. However, last summer I shot 7 days in YellowStone (for myself) with 4 Terrabytes worth of sprawling landscapes, scenic waterfalls and tons of wildlife. I shot that in V-Log to 10bit ProRes.

So there is a place for everything.

I'm actually going to upload my personal YelloStone edit to YouTube for their 10bit HDR encoding mode....for "fun" and the "wow factor" of it. (I dont understand their "HDR" metadata flags yet though)

Yes Doug, you will get no argument from me on the sales-ability of HDR today. There is no market for it right now. You are right. I 100% get what you are saying about paid jobs.

In my dynamic range rant,...I'm talking about something different. My Yellowstone video was not a paid job. I'm mostly stuck into a very boring world of corporate training videos, seminars and lectures for part time paid jobs. I do allot of live PowerPoint presentation recordings and video sync with split screen for demonstrations and I also do live presentation webcasting too. I have several events clients like that. I do video work part time, not full time. I worked for a large global media company full time for 22 years. (I'm an IT/AV special events and Cisco Telepresence engineer. I engineer large AV events all over Latin America)

My 'personal" videos are the ones I will go "all out" for and have a real passion for. Like "Yellowstone", "Glacier National Park", "Yosemite" and others. (I also fly UAS too...but not on NPS property)

Anyway,...I never said there was ANYTHING "glorious" about SLog from a from an 8bit 1inch-type sensor 10.5 stop image sensor. I KNOW there is absolutely nothing "glorious" about it all!

I'm not the one who claimed the Z90/NX80 has "14 stops of dynamic range"....that is 100% YOUR "GLORIOUS" claim! "YOU" actually claimed it had F55 and ARRI amounts of dynamic range!..."NOT ME!"

I'M the guy that is correcting YOU by saying that the Z90 has much LESS!

What am "I" saying?....I'm only saying you can get GOOD 1inch-type sensor class results with SLog-2 under careful usage in certain scenes. It's not "glorious" at all.

I WILL call 12 stops of 10bit VariCam colors in V-Log-l on the GH5 in 10bit ProRes after a 5k sensor readout....."glorious". THAT is quite beautiful.

For anybody else reading this: Again, I'm not DEMANDING that anybody believe me that you can actually benefit from SLog-2 or HLG on the NX80/Z90. Please,..don't believe me,...it wont hurt my feelings! My only advise to you is "TRY IT" and judge for yourself. Don't let me or anybody anybody tell you that you CAN or CAN'T do something and take it as 100% gospel.

Just TRY it and "you" be the judge.

Agreed,..there is no market for HDR today.

Doug, I'm going to bring a body guard with me to NAB....don't get all "John Wayne" with me!! Whoever it was that told you the Z90 had 14 stops of DR,..."HE" is the guy you need to punch! Hahaha!

I hope that people can see that I'm very light hearted about this stuff.

Love, CT ;-)

You two need to agree to disagree. Either way, these are great little cameras.

I agree with you Donald and completely Disagree with Cliff. Time for me to move on and stop looking at this thread.

Very well, that's fair enough. I wont ask you any more questions then. Thats cool.

I have vigorously chatted with Doug over the years and have met him in person several times, enough to believe that neither one of us takes our differing opinions personally.

The guy is totatly good in my book. I certainly respect him and have no problem with him...even when we vigorously disagree at times. Trust me, I agree with Doug much more things than I disagree with him.

There are only two topics I have ever disagreed with Doug on...SLog and Sony's Phase Detection AF. Now on the AF, I "think" that Doug might finally agree with me about how powerful its focus tracking TRUELY is. (Faster than both of us pulling focus manually on a speeding object) If so,...it's good to have you over here Doug. We have one less topic to debate about. ;-)

Thats what makes this a good place to come to.

In this industry, there are MANY disagreements about the "proper" way to do something. We all know this. Emerging and changing technology causes even MORE debate.

All in all....debate and wide ranging opinions are a GOOD thing and nothing to shy away from.

Everything is cool.

All is good, I am not shying away just very overloaded. I have my strong opinion based on results and they work for me. And you have to do what works for you.

I never said that the Z90 didn't have 14 stops of DR, I have only confessed that I cannot measure it myself so it is only possible that it does not. I don't know what the real DR is, and what is more important, I don't care. It is what it is and there is nothing that can be done about it one way or another. Suppose you were told that an engine had a certain horsepower and then found out later it was less, would that change the performance of the car or how you drive it? The camera is what it is. I have driven it in S-LOG and I prefer not to do so ever again. The camera runs great in REC709 mode and with a no extra labor or steps in post.

As for my opinion of phase detection AF, this is the first camcorder I've had my hands on that uses phase detection. I don't care what Sony's mirrorless cameras can do because they are not video camcorders. So no change of opinion here.

Cliff, I know you are desperate to try some little thing you can point out that I said or did wrong, so keep working at it. I'm sure you'll find something. When someone puts themselves and their opinions out there as much as I'm willing to do, a mistake here or there is inevitable.

OK, I had to come back Cliff and answer your question since that is only fair. I am waiting for a render and have a few minutes.

You are saying you can shoot in camera Rec 709 at 6 stops, and I can shoot SLOG at 12 stops of the same shot. Then I grade in Resolve 14 studio, and you cannot see the difference once they are put online?

Funny my clients who have no idea what this is all about say, “Wow, it looks so real what is the difference”. Well the difference is I can bring the highlights in, keep detail in the blacks, and whites with Latitude.

Latitude is king and always has been, and always will be. Does not matter what the delivery is, if you can keep the latitude you can see the difference. And SLOG goes way beyond just latitude, it lets you have control over everything. But if you are not using grading software like Resolve 14 and try to do it in PP CC or Final Cut, well that is not using the right tool for the job and you will not get the results.

And 10-bit camera are far superior to 8-bit cameras when it comes to LOG. Another thing my non-educated camera clients see. Now my educated camera clients demand 10-bit SLOG, with nice Cine Glass.

But as I said in a prior post if you do not need these things for your clients, that is fine if they don’t care. But to say there is no difference is not the facts.

I hope that answers your question of why I disagreed with in your post.

Sure Paul. SLog does capture everything the sensor can visibly see from it's brightest white to it's darkest black. This is because the contrast is compressed into a curve that can be "packed" into a 6 stop container.

This is the exact reason Slog or VLog looks very very "bad" or "flat. This is a beautiful thing.

So now we know we have 10 or 12 or 14 stops "compressed" in a rec709 container....what do we do now? We need to "expand" that compression back out again. But, the problem is: How do we expand and re-contrast out 14 stops for a 6 or 7 stop rec709 delivery? We cant just leave ALL of that in place because the only way rec709 can hold it is to KEEP it compressed. For rec709 to look good, it NEEDS contrast. So all you can do is expand your log and "bend" the gamma on the places you want to keep.

Rec709 is very limited to 6 or 7 stops with "normal" looking contrast. You cant store 14 stops inside of it and have it look good. The best you could pull off is something like a rec709 800% style of contrast. If that was the case, there would be no need to log compression in the first place. This is where BT2020 and Rec2020 takes over. Those gamma curves WERE designed for high dynamic range scope. But those TV's are designed to handle that signal.

So you and I and the rest of the world normalize log and we bend and shape and we curve and slope and adjust the colors as much as we can to fit the most we can into rec709 and still have it look good. When we draw out highlights in for example, all we are doing is collapsing the contrast in the highlights so that it "fits".

Interesting...have you ever used an Atomos Shogun with it's HDR function. It is able to "show" you 10 stops of your log without using an actual "LUT" because that screen is bright enough actually display native log highlights and shadows. Pretty cool.

Eventually, very soon. HLG is a "half log" curve that and HLG TV will actually expand properly into very bright, non compressed highlights. There is no need to draw them in because the TV knows how to display it outside of rec709 limitations.

Yes, Doug, I know you dont care about this. I'm saying this for the few people that DO find the future interesting...even though there is no money in it right now.

As far as Sony's Phase Detection AF goes. It actually appeared on their Alpha cameras first and then made it's way over to the XDCAM world. Every new Sony camera will use this morning forward. I was excited about this a while ago when I told you. So, this technology on the Z90 is nothing new anymore.

Last but not least. People often takes these topics very seriously. I do, but I also am light hearted enough to have "fun" with discussing them. I really hope that people dont take my sense of humor and sarcasm to heart. I'm just an irreverent, happy person by nature. I usually have a BIG smile on my face as I type this stuff.

I only say one thing. Just try these things I say for yourself "then" believe them or not believe them. Either way, it doesn't matter to me. I don't get satisfaction out of people doing things "my" way or seeing people subscribe to my way of thinking on anything! It really does nothing for me.

CT ;-)

Ah this is what I thought you would say.

Keep Having Fun Cliff,

Paul out with a big smile on my face

I'm all for testing things for oneself, but one of the points of a forum like this is to save people a lot of time going over the same ground. If I'm hiking and another hiker coming the other way tells me the trail is blocked a couple of miles ahead, I do not need to continue going down the path to see for myself. Well, I have gone down the S-LOG path and my advice is to turn back now and save yourself some time. I am an experienced S-LOG user with my F55, FS7, FS5, etc. and I know how to do serious grading in Resolve. So my advice to my fellow hikers coming behind me is that the road ahead is blocked and they should seek a different path to get to the same destination. In fact, that other path is actually shorter and and easier, so why fight it?

Paul - If you can find a way to fit all 14 or 16 stops (or 20 stops) into a "normal" contrast into rec709 gamma curve. I think we'd all love to see that. They have a name for this. It's called logarithmic gamma "compression". This is "why" we NEED log curves...and the reason why they look horrible in log.

They don't look "flat" for the fun of it, they look flat because "that" trick is what made all that dynamic range even possible to begin with in rec709.

Remember, SLog-3 and VLog are 16 stop curves based on Cineon. This is why 14 stops leaves unused headroom on the top and bottom of that curve from a 14 stop camera. It's 16 stops "compressed" inside 6-7 stops of rec709. It looks delightfully horrible!

You have to appreciate "contrast",..the "distance" between the top of your wave form and the bottom of your wave form and all the mid tones in between. Rec709 just doesn't have the "distance" to cover 16 stops worth of brightness in it's "normal" calibrated high contrast.

What is wrong with this explanation? Am I saying or wording it wrong?

CT

I'm all for testing things for oneself, but one of the points of a forum like this is to save people a lot of time going over the same ground. If I'm hiking and another hiker coming the other way tells me the trail is blocked a couple of miles ahead, I do not need to continue going down the path to see for myself. Well, I have gone down the S-LOG path and my advice is to turn back now and save yourself some time. I am an experienced S-LOG user with my F55, FS7, FS5, etc. and I know how to do serious grading in Resolve. So my advice to my fellow hikers coming behind me is that the road ahead is blocked and they should seek a different path to get to the same destination. In fact, that other path is actually shorter and and easier, so why fight it?

I appreciate that Doug. I sincerely do. But you have to understand that there are other people that have a different opinion of that hiking trail you just came back from. If Alister Chapman (who is no idiot) and many other people tell me that trail isn't THAT bad and that you could get around the trail block with a short detour. Now we have a difference of many "opinions" about that same trail. (a NORMAL thing in hiking!) I have used 8bit Slog-2 myself and have had "good" success with it. Yes, I shoot 10bit most of the time today because I have six cameras and two can do 10bit, 4k Slog and Vlog. If I "only" had a Z90, I'd carefully use Slog-2 in certain situations.

Even Sony, the people that designed these gamma curves believes it's useful to add to the camera. So your opinion goes directly against theirs too. This is all fine. Each of us is NOT the "be all-end all" judge on camera technology. None of us are. And it would be arrogant to push that idea. (not saying you are doing this)

I was told rolling shutter cameras are "garbage" and to only use global shutter cameras...maybe he is right! But rolling shutter cameras WORK for "me"...not him....but for "me" they do. The guy was just a high end camera "snob"...but how could I say he was "wrong"? Hell,...I'd love to have a rolling shutter camera too.

This debate goes on in forums aground the world and countless YouTube camera guys year after year.... 8bit Slog, "yes" or "no"? I say..."maybe"...at times if you need it"

Doug, you are one voice of many...

CT

Where's the footage from you or Alister to prove those claims? Nothing? I rest my case.

It is silly for me to post footage to show how awful something is. Anything can me made to look awful if someone wants to make a point or simply doesn't know what the hell they are doing. I am asking YOU to show me something that proves S-LOG on the Z90 is better than shooting on REC709. Choose any subject you want, any contrast conditions, anything at all, and show us once and for all that S-LOG is better than any PP you want to choose from 1 - 6, even though I don't think any of those PP's truly take advantage of what the camera can do . Prove it.

BTW, I never once said it was bad because it was 8-bit. Shoot 10-bit HD for all I care, it is the camera itself that performs poorly in the S-LOG mode. If you had tested it you would have seen it, just as I have. And if you haven't seen it, then I suggest that you have not taken the time to shoot A vs. B identical footage with a custom profile. I have done all those things with two different Z90's on multiple occassions -- even though you would prefer to call me a liar. This whole conversation is ridiculous. Have you noticed that Alister doesn't post on forums anymore? He and I have discussed his reasons why he has mostly stepped away, and I am starting to think he has the right idea. Why bother? Life is too short to argue about stuff with people who, as far as I know, has never posted a single frame of video so we can see his work and judge his mastery of the subject at hand.

OK,..so, I'll take some samples. I don't own a Z90, I have an NX80 which should be the same. Although I admittedly have not shot very much yet with my NX80 as I just got it a month ago, I have shot SLog-2 on the same sensor with the RX10-III a little bit. For small carry stuff now, I shoot 10bit VLog at 400Mbp/s on the GH5.

I'l shoot my backyard in the bright sun (possibly Thursday morning) in Slog-2 and Cine 1 or 2 and I'll upload the raw 30 second clips for folks to play with.

Maybe you are right Doug, maybe it WILL be "rubbish" or maybe not.

The problem here is "expectations"....and our definition of what "rubbish" actually is. (I told you about that DP I know that thinks ALL rolling shutter cameras are terrible and that he only shoots global shutter) I think we all know that it's not going to look like SLog-2 from a 14stop camera like an FS7, or FS700 or FS5..etc. I am, in no way trying to say that it's going to be "awesome" as I KNOW what these 1inch-type Exmor RS sensors can do and what they cant. I might even throw the FS700 12bit raw stream to 10bit ProRes HQ as a side by side baseline comparison. Just 30 seconds to keep downloads small.

I will promise you this. If the NX80 looks like "rubbish" (for a cheap $2,000 1 inch-type camera) than I will have the guts to admit this to you and anybody else. I'm NEVER afraid to admit that I'm wrong about anything.

So what do I expect? About a couple of stops more DR and less cloud clipping than Cine 1 or 2. I'm not expecting 14 stops, I'm only expecting 10-11 stops at very best. Not too bad for a small, cheap camera like this. That is my expectation.

Your expectations, as I interpret them, are that NONE of his will be possible with SLog-2 over Cine 1/2. SLog-2 will NOT give a greater dynamic range over Cine 1/2 that is "usable". This is how I read you Doug.

Ok. Well?.. the footage will speak for itself. If you are right, I will freely and happily admit this to you. You have my word.

I will post the direct files for anybody that wants to inspect the test for themselves.

Let's PLEASE go into this with a very NEUTRAL mind set. OK?

CT

P.s. Im not trying to say you are a liar. Thats not right. Im only trying to say you might not have given it a fair chance based on a possible pre-conceived notion. Thats all. :-)

Hey....I'm 100% open to whatever the files show. People can do their own grade and everybody will be their own judge.

I'm guessing +2 stops more in SLog-2??? Who knows,...maybe Doug is completely right and there is nothing there.

I'll bring it and do it on my lunch break tomorrow.

CT

Cliff, just so you know in advance, I won't be downloading your files. I have plenty of my own S-LOG vs. PP tests to work with and I don't need yours. Why don't YOU grade your own footage and then upload a split-screen comparison between S-LOG and PP1 (or any other non-S-LOG gamma) to show us all the difference? I'm not going to do your grading for you.

However, with that said, I would be more than happy to take a look at a finished split-screen video to see proof of your claims about the fantastic abilities of S-LOG on the Z90. Naturally, I will also accept anything from your NX80. I am really looking forward to seeing this great video that you have promised that backs up your claims.

BTW, I don't understand this obsession you have with dynamic range. I don't see how you can think DR trumps everything else and is all that matters. Nothing could be further from the truth. DR is far, far down on the list of things that make a beautiful image. If you really believe that DR is that important why don't you purchase a dynamic range test chart from DSC and shoot some charts. The camera that shows the most range is the winner!! No other test need be done if that is all you care about.

I wish I could post some of the video we've been shooting this week at the Olympics at the downhill racing events in bright sun and ice hockey to show you how (even in very high contrast conditions) dynamic range is not important. The footage looks absolutely gorgeous and blows away anything the Z90 could ever do even if S-LOG worked perfectly on that little camera. There is just so many more elements of a great picture that you don't seem to understand. I've got our 4K highlights team's three Z450's running on a custom scene file built around Hypergamma 4 and it just looks awesome right out of the cameras. No S-LOG needed. Amazing, really. Tune into NBC and watch some of the "live" coverage from any of the events anywhere at the Olympics. It's all REC709 and almost all HD (not even 4K). There's no log or grading on any of it. Think your NX80 looks like that?

Here's some Z450 footage I shot last year after NAB with regular REC709 settings. Do you think your NX80 (with or without S-LOG) can look this good?

Sony PXW-Z450 4K Demo Reel on Vimeo

Admins. Will you stop this tit for tat before we lose one or both of our members?