I currently shoot using a Sony FDR-AX100 4K Ultra HD Camcorder. I invariably shoot 4k 30p and generally find the image quality to be excellent. I do have a serious problem and that is when shooting in very bright outdoor light, as is most of my shooting, the EVF and the LCD are way too dim such that I find accurately setting exposure well nigh impossible with no satisfactory work-around available (as has been discussed here previously).

So my question is what would you suggest as an upgrade that would give me the same or similar excellent 4k image quality but also provide an order of magnitude better functionality of the EVF and the LCD. It does not need to be a Sony product, I should add.

Many thanks

John

The large eyecup from a Sony X70 or FS5 will fit the EVF of the AX100.

Thanks Nate, I gave that a shot already and while it was somewhat helpful it does not get me there.

John, you don't need a new camera. I think you just need to better understand how to use the one you already have. I've never used an AX100 but I know that it does offer zebras and that is really the only tool you need to set exposure accurately, consistently, quickly, and without any second guessing. How the image looks in the viewfinder should be of no concern at all -- so if you're exposing by how the image looks, I would suggest that you're going about setting exposure all wrong and just making life harder for yourself. Your previous posts on this thread prove my point that exposing by eyeball is a recipe for failure. If you learn to use zebras then you can save yourself thousands of dollars by not having to buy a new camera -- which, even if you did, would just present the same problem anyway.

Doug, thanks for your input. A long time ago I purchased a copy of your EX1 DVD set which now sits unused alongside my EX1 in a cupboard along with many fond memories. But at the time it changed my life for the better, great stuff, and a belated thanks for that.

The thing is my problem, a love hate relationship with the AX100, is much more than just the problem of setting exposure I spoke of above. I have viewed many of your excellent wildlife videos and enjoyed your contribution here. I just know you are not just in it for the money, important though that undoubtedly is. You enjoy those excursions off the beaten track, a somewhat heavy tripod over your shoulder along with a very good camera, maybe a couple of cool ones in your backpack, and when you come across something promising you are set up in no time and shooting away, delighted and happily in your element, loving being there and doing it, and your results speak to that satisfying reality.

My experience is not initially dissimilar except my tripod is lesser adjusted to my greater years, I forgo the cool ones these days, and when I find something promising I too quickly set things up but when I look at the AX100 LCD or into the VHF I see - sweet fanny adams. I am then not a happy shooter - it is by guess and by god - and yes, often I get nice footage though I don't know it until I get home and view it on my 27" 4K monitor.

Bottom line: I love the footage I can get using my AX100, I hate that often as not I can't see what I'm doing. In this day and age it simply does not have to be like that. The AX100 is 5 year old technology, entry 4k of yesteryear. Huge progress has been made since then. Life is too short to muck around with what by today's standards is such inferior technology. I do take your point about using zebras more effectively and I shall smarten up in that regard. But please understand my grizzle about the useless EVF and LCD on the AX100 is about the ruination of the total out there shooting experience, the thing in itself.

Please pardon my verbosity but my initial post was clearly way too brief.

Cheers.

Hi John, thanks nice comments, and I understand completely what you are saying. So it sounds like you're happy with the video from the AX100, just not the experience of shooting with it, right? I totally agree that the experience of shooting must be rewarding and enjoyable beyond just how good the footage is that we are capturing. I don't want to shoot with a camera that is a pain in the ass, either.

While I can't say how the OLED viewfinder on the NX80 or Z90 compares to your AX100 (because I have never touched an AX100), I can tell you that I'm very impressed with the viewfinder on my Z90. You should find a way to try one of those new cameras in a showroom and see what you think. The upgrade might be worth it.

But the real answer might be as simple as a new viewfinder for your AX100. Have you considered something like a Zacuto EVF Pro? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/755493-REG/Zacuto_Z_FIND_EVFP_Z_Finder_EVF_Pro_3_2.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/755493-REG/Zacuto_Z_FIND_EVFP_Z_Finder_EVF_Pro_3_2.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801/BI/2855/KBID/3801/BI/2855/KBID/3801)

It might take a little ingenuity to rig the camera to the viewfinder, but I can assure it will provide a rewarding experience while shooting. For a fraction of the cost of a new camera you get a EVF that is better than any new camera up to the FS7 and above.

Just thinking out loud.

Unfortunately, the AX100 doesn't output from the HDMI port while recording in 4K mode. All other modes, yes. I have the Z90 and AX100, so for a test, I'll set each one's LCD to max brightness and see if there's any difference out in the sunshine. That won't be for another 12-16 hours Japan time.

I also have that Zacuto EVF, so I'll test with both cameras and report how it works out.

Mark

Are you sure about the HDMI output? Like I said, I don't have an AX100 to try, but with the Z90, NX80, Z150. etc. you can choose to keep the HDMI output active during 4K recording and have the camera blackout the viewfinder instead -- which you won't be using anyway if you're looking through the Zacuto viewfinder. Check to see if that is the case with the AX100. If it works the same as the Z90, NX80, and Z150 you are good to go.

Unfortunately, the AX100 doesn't output from the HDMI port while recording in 4K mode. All other modes, yes. I have the Z90 and AX100, so for a test, I'll set each one's LCD to max brightness and see if there's any difference out in the sunshine. That won't be for another 12-16 hours Japan time.

I also have that Zacuto EVF, so I'll test with both cameras and report how it works out.

Mark

If you dont want to use the EVF, you could always use a nylon monitor hood. I have HoodMan type hoods for each of the cameras I own.

I have also found that all these Sony cameras that block out live video on the LCD screen when using HDMI work well with Atomos 4k recorders. (I'm guessing they are all based on the exact same Sony "BIONZ" SoC image processors.) You can break away from MPEG Long GOP and go into ProRes and gain double the chroma resolution. (Still stuck in 8bit sampling though) You can always keep the MPEG file on the card as a backup. (If you don't hit the "record" button, you can get live LCD view plus HDMI)

I have found that you can still record and monitor your image with all the great Atomos scopes and focus tools and still be able look down to see camera settings OK. It's a little bit of a pain but it sure is nice to shoot with a "luxurious" bright ,monitor/recorder with extensive tools like that. I LOVE having live waveform scopes.

Rumor has it that Aotoms is working on a much smaller Shogun recorder right now. NAB 2018???

CT

P.s....Sony can you give us live waveform scopes on future cameras the way Panny does?...pleeeeease? (Panny gives both wave and vector)

I own the AX-700. To maximize my aging eyesight, I utilize the Hoodman EX KIT PRO. Model# HEXKP.

I attach it within seconds via band type straps to the actual LCD monitor. Initially, I used the focus ring to set it up to the proper diopter. Works well. I find I do have to hold the LCD monitor with the left hand as the LCD screen now becomes a large EVF. Hope this helps.

Rumor has it that Aotoms is working on a much smaller Shogun recorder right now. NAB 2018???



That is my biggest wish. Using an external recorder to record relatively uncompressed video (and 422)eliminates many issues, including banding from 8bit (it has been shown that it is compression that makes banding worse than going from 8 to 10 bit). And for some cameras it opens up more capabilities than can be exploited internally - like 4K 60P.

I would like the recorder to not have any screen at all, in fact - better battery life, less problem of overheating, cheaper, and of course smaller and lighter. Attach it by a thin SDI cable (on the appropriate cameras) and attach the recorder to one's belt, in one's pocket or in a shoulder bag and you've turned your cheap consumer camera to a pro-level camera in many (yes, not all) ways that can be used handheld.

Thats true. "Banding" and other "banding-style" artifacts are most often caused by two things. 8bit sampling being REALLY stretched and/or high compression artifacts. Its often very hard to tell the difference!

In a highly compressed h.264 scenerio, the shadows are the very first area that h.264 will sacrifice. It will cluster pixels and average them into "one value blocks" to save data bandwidth. It just keeps macroblocking higher up and higher up the more stesssed h.264 gets. This can look very much like 8bit banding but its not. It can certainly display this in 10bit video too. When you stretch and pull this stuff in post, you bring out all that "ugly" really quick.

ProRes HQ is a very durable. It doesnt do long GOP macroblocking this same way because it has solid frames and doesnt play entropy games in between them. If you see "banding" in 8bit ProRes HQ, you can be sure that its "truely" caused by 8bit sampling stair steps.

But yah,...when we pixel peep "banding" problems all over the web, half of what we think is 8bit banding isn't really that. It's long GOP macro blocking in gradients instead.

Btw...when I say "h.264" I mean the Long GOP flavor, not the all-I type.

John - Since I also have the AX100, use outdoors in bright sun on a sailboat, I can feel your pain. This is probably the worst situation (along with being on the ski slope in bright sun) there is. I did get a Newer LCD hood that does help but is still not optimum as glare is still too great. Better, but not perfect. On the plus side, it is easy to put on and remove, and it didn’t cost much. For situations less than severe bright it is marginally “okay”.

One option I’ve considered is the new Atomos monitor with a much brighter screen than what the LCD screen is, but for outdoor purposes that would be a clumsy and expensive accessory. Looking at the Atomos web page, though, they do have an accessory hood that is what one needs. The Atomos Sunhood totally surrounds the screen and has a slit in front that one peers through and, I think, this is the key.

So, what about an LCD hood (the Amazon Neewer 3.5” LCD Screen Sun Shield is $11.99 (US$ in the US) then customize it with an enclosure similar to the Atomos Sunhood. If one can find a pre-made one that is an enclosure with a view hole so much the better.

The Hoodman 350VIDEO is more expensive than the Newer and might be easier to customize.

I don’t know if things have changed since I was in New Zealand but imported items were really REALLY expensive then. For what it’s worth, I Hitch hiked (picked up by a couple with PhDs in Biology) from Queenstown over Haast Pass to Greymouth back then (still impressed by the prehistoric “fern trees”), and also across Cook Strait as a crew on a sailboat. Great times back then!
Left picture is the Newer
Center picture is the Atomos Sunscreen
Right picture is the Hoodman 350VIDEO but I think the picture is taken from the rear and not the viewing side

Mark, I eagerly await the results of your tests, many thanks for that. I also discovered that when the AX100 is connected via HDMI cable to a monitor all is fine until the record button is pressed and the monitor then goes blank.

John, I am currently located in the Marlborough Sounds with my sailboat in the Waikawa marina. Indeed it is the worst situation for using the AX100 but regarding lifestyle it's hard to beat. I am disinclined to play around with LCD hoods as I seriously doubt that would solve the problem to my satisfaction especially given what I'm up against.

Importing is now a competitive option in New Zealand in fact I purchased the AX100, and a lot of other gear, from B&H in New York. Great service from B&H and a pleasure to deal with them.

I shall also seriously look at the Atomos solution. Clumsy yes, but an option I shall consider, for sure. Care to make a suggestion as to which model?

Regarding sailing I shall send you a PM as if we go down that road here we might have Mr. Obstreperous Rex getting agitated, and rightly so. Thanks for your input John, much appreciated.

John -

Importing is now a competitive option in New Zealand in fact I purchased the AX100, and a lot of other gear, from B&H in New York. Great service from B&H and a pleasure to deal with them.

I shall also seriously look at the Atomos solution. Clumsy yes, but an option I shall consider, for sure. Care to make a suggestion as to which model?
It's been a while since I investigated monitors but the Atomos models had the brightest screens then. I think the one that'd work best for outside shooting on the AX100 is the Ninja Flame based on it's size because it is the smallest model. https://www.atomos.com/ninja-flame Not sure, though, if even with the bright screen it would be enough, hence, they also make a hood for it. It'd definitely be worthwhile to investigate further before springing for buying one. There are other features that would be make it worth the money, though. US $795

As for the prices as I remember them, everything imported (from outside the commonwealth) seemed to cost about 3X the price in the US. Mustang car: 3X, Nikon SLR: 3X (SLRs for the younger folks here are 35mm cameras). On the other hand, saw a Ford Model A touring car, unmodified, with cowl mounted lights and plate glass wind deflectors .... NZ £100! Wanted it so bad but the shipping was expensive.


John, I am currently located in the Marlborough Sounds with my sailboat in the Waikawa marina. Indeed it is the worst situation for using the AX100 but regarding lifestyle it's hard to beat. I am disinclined to play around with LCD hoods as I seriously doubt that would solve the problem to my satisfaction especially given what I'm up against.

Waikawa Marina? Hey, isn't that in, or next to, Picton? Nice! My Cook Strait crossing was pretty nasty. All the blokes from the skippers crew hit the pub for a few flaggins (sp?) the morning before we left. Needless to say, they weren't that usefull afterward.

The "Neewer" LCD hood I've got works better with a baseball cap and some light blocking using the left hand in moderately bright situations. The good part is it's really cheap compared with the alternatives. I've been thinking of how it could be modified to do a better job. It's also really easy to put on and remove, just slides on and off.

Edit: The Ninja Inferno (costing more) vs the Flame has 60P and Cinema vs the Flame's 30P and no Cinema. One report I read recommended buying their kit so that costs more, fortunately, the kits seem to be typically useable on the next models. Every year there is newer stuff and ... what we have gets older.

After many sunny blue sky days... it went all overcast today. Still, I went ahead with a test.
With both the Z90 and AX100 screens set to full bright, I did not see any difference in them. They look to be the same size and brightness, and same amount of glare/reflection. The image on the Z90 looks a little less contrasty, but that's down to the additional stops of dynamic range, or whatever.

I re-confirmed that the AX100 will not output any HDMI signal while in 4K recording mode. Go into standby and it will output a signal. I had to select 1080i or 720p in order to get a display to appear on the Zacuto EVF. When I set the camera's HDMI resolution to AUTO mode or anything other than 720p or 1080i, the EVF says it cannot accept the 1080 60p 422 that the camera is outputting. No problem, just go with 1080i output and you can get a display, except once you hit record, the screen goes blank. This only applies to 4K mode, all other modes can be output during recording.

Now the interesting part. The Zacuto brightness was set to maximum, which is 11 on the setup controls. And the Zacuto EVF was not as bright as the AX100 LCD screen, and also had a lot of glare/reflection, even on an overcast day. I got the Zacuto for aiming my Sony FDR-X3000 action cameras and have tried using it with my Canon 6D at night when trying to get my lens focused manually when shooting astral timelapses. So glare wasn't really an issue in either of those applications.

The Z90 can be setup to output during 4K recording, but you then lose the LCD display, where all your data is overlayed. If I were looking for something to tackle the poor LCD visibility in sunlight, I think I'd look into the smaller displays that have the highest brightness. Of course the Zacuto can be used with its loupe, which I also have, and works great for blocking out the sun, but the optimal solution would not involve a loupe (for me anyways).

The surprise I got today was that my AX100 ouputs 1080 60P 4:2:2 over HDMI. Is that in the manual? Don't think I ever read that spec anywhere and when I hooked the camera up to my TV set, it didn't report any info on the input signal, like some sets do. The Zacuto was reporting everything correctly as I switched through all the camera output modes.

Mark

In bright sunshine, I think the only solution is to buy an eyecup (as suggested) and use the eye viewfinder. This goes any camera no matter what the pice. £5 -700 is a lot of money for something that I personally do not think will work.

I've never used the Atomos Shogun Inferno, but the screen boasts a very bright screen. I've seen reviews where they claimed it worked fine in bright sunshine. Downsides to using with a camera like the AX100 is that it's got to use HDMI, and the AX100's HDMI is the micro-sized one. Also, any monitor-recorder is going to need a mounting solution and add some clumsiness to the shooting experience, taking into account the weight of the monitor and the batteries and then SSD(s) if you also are recording. Basically, handheld would probably suck, while tripod supported would be tolerable.

Mark, many thanks for running the tests, very much appreciated. I'm not surprised that the Z90 is not significantly improved in this regard, unfortunately. And the more I think about setting up an Atomos device the less enthusiastic I become about that approach.

So the AX100 gets relegated to the 'only for cloudy days' cupboard and my question, the title of this thread, remains unanswered. 'Sony 4K Ultra HD Handhelds' is perhaps not the best place to ask this question.

Many thanks for the inputs.

What other cameras do you own or are looking at that have the LCD screens you like for direct sunlight viewing?

Cliff, that's more or less the question I asked you all to begin with! And I said 'the EVF and the LCD are way too dim' so let me emphasize a good to great EVF would turn my crank, for sure.

I'm hearing good things about the Lumix G9 in regards the EVF in particular - don't know about the LCD - and the 4k video quality is said to be excellent also (not to mention its highly regarded still capability which is also of great interest to me).

Let me ask you; what cameras do you own or are looking at that have the LCD screens and/or EVF you like for direct sunlight viewing? And I'm talking high altitude Arizona summer midday sun and not that humid hazy grey sweaty drenching Florida stuff.

Get a new or used FS7 and you will live happily for years and years. All your viewing problems will be solved and you'll have a camera that has features and functions that will revolutionize how you work and what you can create with it.

Cliff, that's more or less the question I asked you all to begin with! And I said 'the EVF and the LCD are way too dim' so let me emphasize a good to great EVF would turn my crank, for sure.

I'm hearing good things about the Lumix G9 in regards the EVF in particular - don't know about the LCD - and the 4k video quality is said to be excellent also (not to mention its highly regarded still capability which is also of great interest to me).

Let me ask you; what cameras do you own or are looking at that have the LCD screens and/or EVF you like for direct sunlight viewing? And I'm talking high altitude Arizona summer midday sun and not that humid hazy grey sweaty drenching Florida stuff.

Well? I can tell you this: Coming from a radical die-hard SONY fan-boy ZOMBIE like me? I have owned 16 Sony cameras in 20 years. I love that company to death. But my very first non-Sony camera in 20 years was the GH5....and lemme tell you! I WANTED to hate it. I tried so hard to hate it but the more I shot with it, the more it freaked me out. That camera is jaw-dropping.

It uses a state of the art SONY Exmor IMX272 image sensor that is WAY larger than a 1inch-type sensor.
It can do a full 6k sensor readout and full 6k anamorphic lens recordings...internally.
Full 10bit color sampling and processing!
UHD 4k in 60p!...60p, not just 30p.
Full DCI 4k (17x9) in...10bit color.
400Mbps 10bit 4:2:2 all I frame compression onto dual SD cards.(Several Long GOP flavors too)
10bit V-Log with VariCam color science. (sorry Sony,..y'know I love SLog but VLog colors drop into place perfectly with no green/blue channel fighting or "twisting" and they "pop" better)
12 stops of real dynamic range....using a real SONY Exmor IMX272 image sensor.
Waveform and vector scopes.
Over cranking and under cranking variable frame rates from 1 to 180 frames a second.
No recording limit.
Absolutely ZERO overheating problems. (Just like any true camcorder)
Sensor readout is clocked FASTER than an FS7 and has LESS rolling shutter.(Thank you blazing fast Sony Exmor IMX272 image sensor)
Floating sensor stabilized. It's like walking with a gimbal. Shooting 600mm zoom (35mm equivelant) lenses HANDHELD look almost like a tripod shot.

Oh,...Did I mention it's got a SONY Exmor IMX272 image sensor? Yes, Sony sold their soul (and their proprietary, patented technology) to Panasonic.

Man,..this thing is SICK for $2,000. Guys are using this as B cams to Super35mm Varicams and you cant even tell the difference. I have even seen comparisons where the GH5 is cleaner than their own Super35mm EVA-1.

The EVF is great on it. Dont get the G9 as it's recording time is limited and missing most of the video features the GH5 has.

I REALLY hate to say it but Sony Semiconductor company created a MONSTER when they sold Panasonic that Sony IMX272 Exmor sensor. I'm sure Sony Imaging company was NOT happy at all.

So yeah.,....as a "Sony man"..ugggg....I must admit that the GH5 friggin' phenomenal. Get one and return it if you dont like it. I'm pretty sure you will love it. It's only $2k and the Leica glass that you can get is gorgeous.

Sorry Sony,....It actually "hurt" me to type all this! :-(

CT

p.s. Doug is right, the FS7 is an absolute joy to shoot with. I love, LOVE that camera. I love that 12bit raw sensor data output. But you need to be able to afford it and it wont be easy to carry around. it's great for jobs where you want impress your customer. But it's not great for "casual" shooting. Especially on a boat.

As a long time Sony user I too have moved to the Panasonic GH5 with Leica 12-60 lens and XLR attachment. I was waiting for a nice larger sensor Sony camera to replace my FDR-AX1 but it never came !!! UHD60P is a must for me so most of the Sony's, other than the FS7 are off the table. A NX80 with UHD 60P would have sold me but I am now thinking of getting another GH5. I can buy 3 GH5 setups for the price of a FS7 kit !!! It is easy to use and the WIFi application that works with Apple and Android is great allowing full control of the camera with remote preview including peaking. Touch focus etc on the tablet remote is great for the theatre use as a fixed remote camera for me. I will likely get a Ninja Inferno to get 10bit 4:2:2 UHD 60P from the GH5. This kit is still less than half the price of a FS7.

I also have an NX5U, AX100, AX53 and a FDR-AX1 that does not work and costs too much to fix !!!

I quite like the classic notion that 'form follows function' or to put it in context the camera should be selected based on its suitability to perform in the intended use scenario(s). I also subscribe to the notion that a fool and his money are soon parted - I try not to be foolish.

I'm taking all your most helpful input on-board, and cogitating...

Many thanks.

The smallhd focus 5in monitor is a great buy at 500.00
Quality is very good and in broad daylight you would think you're inside looking at this monitor they really have it perfected I saw it at NAB last year it's a no-brainer

Thanks Jim, the problem is it seems there is no way to output from the AX100 to such a monitor while recording. My understanding is that this serious limitation is related to the (relatively old technology) BIONZ X processor and heat generation/power consumption as seems all the Sony 4k prosumer/consumer cams have this issue, more or less.

I would be delighted to know if we have that wrong.

The inability to output a signal on the HDMI port during 4K recording is stated in the 204 page help guide, on page 48.

The Z90 can do it, the AX100 cannot.