Well, after having the GL2 for 2 years...i sold it and have money for a new camera..After searcing, reading, revising, posting, asking and thinking about it all...I've come to the conclusion that...i need to hurry, cause its costing me money NOT having a camera... Af first it was the dvx100a, xl2 or Fx1...Dont wanna get the fx since im mainly doing music videos and film like projects and even with the "cineframe" i think it's called...i still dont think it looks filmic at all. I kinda like the xl2's DOF and the low saturated out the box quality. I also like the fact that it's VERY cusomizable and can suit many filming situations given in the hands of someone that can set each shot up. And iv'e seen some amazing things shot on the DVX...like the short "water" was def. amazing. Another thing is, i usually do alot of CC in post so i'd want a camera unlike the GL2 which will look good out the box as well.
I know it's totally my option but ive read every possible thing in the past few months on these camera's and am still VERY stuck at this point... i have about 4500ish to spend...

My options now are...
(1)
Dvx100b-3400 after M.I.R
batteries-100
pelican case-200
cavision bellow w/few filters-800

(2)
Canon xl2 4400
Nice cardboarding carrying case coincidently the same one its shipped in.
The happiness of a nice big professional camera knowing that your only 18 and look younger and people think you can't even spell the word Camcorder.


Is there anything else i should take into consideration that i might be missing? help me please...

Just one thing ---

The depth of field on all cameras you're considering should be the same, since they all have 1/3" chips. Unless you're using a 35mm adapter, of course.

maybe a little confused about what your saying...the xl2 has a larger DOF if im not mistaking. or am i just saying something wrong and confusing everyone?

Probably so.

All the miniDV cameras with 1/3" CCDs should have similar depth of field characterisitics.


When I say depth of field, I mean the area of the picture in focus at a given time, for a given focal length (how far you're zoomed in), at a given fstop (your iris setting), with the subject a certain distance from the camera, and the background a certain distance from the subject.

Most guys want a shallower depth of field, since, with 1/3" CCDs you're often battling to NOT have everything in the shot (foreground and background) in focus at the same time, because it's more "film-like" (or professional--since "real" movies are usually full of shallow focus shots).

My point was that the XL2, DVX100a, and anything else you mentioned you might buy will have similar/identical depth of field characteristics 'cause they have the same size censors. They WILL, however, have less depth of field (what I'm assuming you want) then your GL2, with a 1/4" CCD (bigger CCD = less depth of field), but it's not gonna be a night and day difference. You won't get those beautiful soft focus background easily with any of these cameras unless you're in the right locations (lots of space) or you zoom in so tight it's ridiculous (more zoomed in = less depth of field.

As I mentioned there are a handful of 35mm lens adapters (35mm will give you shallow depth of field despite the CCD size on your camera) for these miniDV cameras, that allow you to use 35mm lenses, but that option is not cheap at all. And I don't really have experience in that area, so if you ask, I'll let the other guys answer questions in that realm.

Ohh ok. yea..i was a little confused. but the Xl2 has more film-like DOF given the lens it has and that is the main reason i really like that camera...I could just use an adapter and have similar/Better DOF and film like qualities using the Panasonic.

Is there anything else i should take into consideration that i might be missing? help me please...

Yes, you should take into consideration that more and more people are buying widescreen TVs, so you should at least get a camera with a native widescreen sensor. If I'm not mistaken that rules out the DVX100 and favors the XL2 as one of the few true widescreen DV cameras.

Could this possibly be bringing the fx1 up for a battle? haha

Well, that's what I'm saying, the XL2 does NOT have more film like depth of field than the DVX. I promise. The lens is a 20x, whereas the DVX's is a 10x (that's how far it can zoom), but the depth of field characteristics at any given focal length will be identical between the two cameras. I suppose if you wanted to get nitpicky, you could say that since the XL2's lens can zoom in farther, you can use those shorter focal lengths (being more zoomed in) to get shallower depth of field, but to make that work for you in the real world be be quite ridiculous. You'd have to get waaaaaaaaay back from your subject to get a head and shoulders CU zoomed in to 20x.

For all intents and purposes, however, the XL2's and the DVX's depths of field will be the same. Just 'cause the lens on the XL2 is bigger and detachable doesn't make the depth of field shallower. It's NOT a 35mm lens.

Could this possibly be bringing the fx1 up for a battle? haha

I'd personally recommend the FX1 over any SD camera because it's more future-proof, but if you don't like the way the output looks then what are you to do? Just dont' be surprised if you buy an SD camera and two years from now have to sell it for next to nothing to buy an HD camera.

Well, i guess one of the reasons i didnt really take the fx-1 into consideration is the lack of footage from it. The only thing ive seen is the 3L-Flex Music video from pixelloft. Can anyone show me anything convincing enough?

Can anyone show me anything convincing enough?

You can take a look at the following samples on my web site, which are downsampled to compressed formats for internet delivery.

Yosemite Falls, Windows Media 720p at 5 Mbps:
http://www.videomem.com/hdv/yosemite_720p.wmv

Wedding video highlights, Windows Media 640x360 at 1 Mbps:
http://www.videomem.com/weddings/gordon-lacey/highlights.wmv

Some of the highlights shots could have been better, but if you disregard that and look at the quality of the best scenes you'll get some idea with the FX1 can do. It's not a perfect camera, but it's pretty darn good for the price.

Both links are the same. Thats really amazing looking footage, but im going for a more film-like example. Like maybe a music video or a short trailer or something. I know that no matter what camera i buy, it will be way better then the GL2...but still looking for something different.

Sorry, I just fixed the second link and that has lots of shots of people and such.

yet again. i think the footage looks amazing, even down-res' that much. i guess its just not the look im going for if that makes sense.

Future-proofing is 1% format, 99% content. I have seen your stuff and you do a great job with editing, CC, effects, etc. I can tell you right now that for a guy like you the HDV workflow will frustrate you to no end and will require a significant upgade in computers/HDD/etc.

To me, the choice is easy. If you want 16:9 then it is the XL2 all the way. If you want 4:3 the DVX100b comes into the picture. For someone like you I would recommend the XL2 which gets the cleanest most detailed SD image to tape so you can play with it later. As far as cost, you can pick an XL2 up for as little as $3700 new if you check around. If I were you, I would consider getting a used one from a forum member who has cared for it well. You can prolly pick up a case and the 3X wide within your budget.



ash =o)

the cheapest i've seen is 3999 at BHPhoto. I dont know what the rules are on the board and if you cant really say who sells its that cheap legitamatly...But umm...who sells is for 3700?

Do you think i could get the same good look from a stock xl2 as a modified DVX100b...can you tell im into cars?

Define modified? The XL2 can achieve a more shallow DOF than the DVX because the lens is twice as long. I see that you shoot long (zoomed) with your GL2 quite a bit. The bigger chips of the XL2 will give you an even more shallow DOF.

Check eBay, there are a couple legit resellers selling the camera for around $3700 last I checked.



ash =o)

i mean like...a DVX with a matte box and filters...

Unless you already have 4X4 filters dont mess with the matte box. You can get good 72mm filters cheaper. I think the ideal set-up for you would be an XL2 with a 16X manual lens which is GREAT for music videos. It does not have any image stabilization but you can get used to that... the XL2 is easy to balance on your shoulder...


ash =o)

any reason you say not to mess with a matte box?

Over-priced and the main purpose it serves is so that you can use your existing film filters.


ash =o)

Well, another thing that had me on the edge was the xl2 "features tour" from DVcreators. If someone did this for the DVX...haha BTW...I have until friday night to decide. Anything else i should consider? and again..were can i find the camera cheapest new?

Future-proofing is 1% format, 99% content.

A useful point to make, but in this case the format change is so significant it's going to make a lot of content look very dated a few years from now. If you shoot widescreen HD video you don't have to worry about that, and you might even find you like the artistic results. Any SD camera you buy today will be obsolete at some point in the relatively near future, so it's arguably not a very good investment. (But in the right hands you might be able to pay it off before it's totally out of date.)

I wish i lived somewhere where i could actually see them both side by side...but ive never even seen em for sale in stores haha. I dunno, ill make up my mind eventually...I can't believe it's this hard though...I've read up on these cameras since they've been out, and now at this point in time...I dont know what to do. The whole FX1 and the future HD thing sounds like the best thing to do...then the second thing would be the xl2 since its Native WS chips. So i don't know...I'll know soon enough though.

The whole FX1 and the future HD thing sounds like the best thing to do...then the second thing would be the xl2 since its Native WS chips.

Those would be my recommendations given your situation and budget. If you could swing it you might be happier with the HVX200, but that's some real money by the time you're done buying P2 cards or DTE recorders.

Again... it is not just an issue of camera or format, it is an issue of WORKFLOW. Look at Guiseppe's stuff, lots and lots of great post work. Doing that in HD or HDV will require a significant hardware upgrade. The obsolete/investment argument is silly, in 5 years the difference in what a used XL2 is worth and what a used FX1 is worth will be marginal. Cameras are not investments, they are tools that depreciate. Unless you can make MORE money, RIGHT NOW by shooting in HD there is no reason to do it... For the record I just starting working on a show that is all HD, shot on Varicams so my comments are coming from an objective place.



ash =o)

Giuseppe,

Do you have the means to rent the XL2 and DVX100b? I know the DVX100B is so new that finding one to rent may be a little harder, but it may be worth a try. I rented a Z1 a few months ago and it was a good experience actually getting to use the camera. As you can see from my sig, I've got the XL2. It was between it and the DVX100a (at the time) when I got it. While I like the XL2, the DVX is like the X-Girlfriend that you always wonder what would have happened if you had married.

Wait a minute, you're 18... you don't know anything about that yet.

I know you said that you needed the camera by Friday, but if you can hold out for a little while longer on the purchase (and save more in the mean time), the HVX200 may be the best camera in the world for you, as it will shoot anything the DVX100B will, but it will do it with native 16:9, if I've read everything in this forum correctly.

PS: Ash is a great one to listen to, as he has the XL2, DVX100a, AND most recently... the DVX100B

One other thing -

I was thinking about adding another camera over the last month, and to date the HVX200 looked the best to me, I was just waiting for it to be released.

But I decided to hold of for a while. I just could not justify the price of the storage necessary to hold the footage. One day I shot all day long, I simply could not have afforded to do that with the HVX200 and P2.

So I decided to get a ReflecMedia GreenScreen studio set up and Century .7x Wide Angle adaptor instead of the HVX200.

HD/HDV will always be there in the future if you want to switch. Have any of your current clients / projects asked you to get HDV/HD?

Now, after saying all of that - IF I did not already have an XL2, and IF the HVX200 turns out to be the camera that it's supporters think it will be, I would get the HVX200 and shoot DV with it, and keep the option open for shooting DVCPR0 HD/50/25 in the future.

None of the clients have asked for HD nor Widescreen actually. They are very happy with what they get and they should be for what they pay for it. I can't really wait any longer either cause i was actually supposed to start shooting a new video tommorow(wed). But I told the client im just upgrading equipment and it will be another week or so. The HVX would be the best camera, but i just can't afford that kind of money right now, and even if i could, i doubt i'd spend that much on a camera...With me spending 2200 for the GL2 brand new already makes me hesitant on spending 4 grand at the age of 18 for a camera. But i love it, and i don't ever wanna stop :)

As of today, i called Randy at EVS and he was the most help anyone could have given. He also said the DVX would be a better camera. So right now im thinking DVXB, Formatt, Case, 2 batteries, and I should have an adapter tomorrow so...Something along those lines...What do you guys think?

It seems to me that you really want an HD camera that shoots progressive.
Why not then hire cameras, and save until you can afford what you want.

My biggest regrets in life always come from moments of impatience. Hire a DVX or XL2 and charge a little more for what you do. As the the jobs come, save your money and in no time you can have an XL H1 or an HVX2000

The obsolete/investment argument is silly, in 5 years the difference in what a used XL2 is worth and what a used FX1 is worth will be marginal.

Perhaps, but the difference is that in five years people will still be using FX1s to make HD videos, while the XL2 will be essentially a museum piece. Plus he could buy an HDV camera and just run it in DV mode for now, which wouldn't require any additional investment in post-production gear or change in workflow.

While I like the XL2, the DVX is like the X-Girlfriend that you always wonder what would have happened if you had married.


HA ha ha ha

well...the Lady at dell is calling me at 7pm on Friday. So i have 64 hours 3 minutes 44 seconds left to make up my mind on if i get the XL2 or the DVX...Any more last minute convincing anyone wants to partake in?

Just to sum up what I've said before, if you get the FX1 you'll have more options in the future when people starting asking for HD video; the other two cameras won't help you once that happens. And if production issues are a concern for now, simply shoot in DV mode and your production process remains the same. So the FX1 is the only camera in your price range which meets your current needs and ensures you won't have to buy another camera sometime in the next few years -- possibly sooner rather than later. Understood that you're not sure if you'll like the look the FX1 produces, but all of my customers who have seen HDV footage thinks it looks great. You'd probably be happy with either of the other two cameras, but they will become obsolete faster.

Honestly. i dont really think there gonna just become obsolete one day. I don't see how that will/can happen. Maybe im just not seeing something, but i dunno.

another thing...Today, i went to best buy since thats the only place that has one of the camera's and i just messed with the Xl-2 for like 10 minutes, and i don't know if it was cause of the viewfinder size, but it looks like the picture was Super fine. Almost broadcast quality looking if that makes sense. I had the camera in 1/48, 24P, 16x9, Cine Gamma, and adjusted the Black strech and everything to what i liked in the store, but its wierd, cause it resembles film but it was really fine. so i guess that's almost a hypicritical statement. Is the DVX Like that?

The DVX is not as sharp as the XL2, especially in 16:9 mode. It WILL be sharper than the GL2 and probably good enough for anything you do. If you DID decide to go with an HD camera dont go with the Sony, they are 1st gen HDV cams and the film look from them is not very good at all. SD is the way to go for now, dont let people scare you away from it, you have nothing to lose. If you spend $3800 on an XL2 and decide to upgrade in a year you probably will lose $800 - $1000 when you resell it. By that time, the price of the HD and HDV cams will have dropped by that much so it is all a complete wash.



ash =o)

Well, im almost positive im gonna go with the XL2. Should be ordering either tomorrow or friday. Wish me luck haha

Honestly. i dont really think there gonna just become obsolete one day. I don't see how that will/can happen. Maybe im just not seeing something, but i dunno.

At some point most professional videographers may simply be expected to shoot high-definition video, and if/when that happens all SD cameras will be effectively obsolete for our purposes. If you buy any SD camera now, you should do so with an expecation that you'll probably want to upgrade again to HD(V) within the next few years.

Well, i mean i had the GL-2 for 2 years before i sold it. So im not expecting on keeping this camera for like more then 3-4 years. You have to update your equipment to stay with everything. Just think in 3-4 years, it's gonna be different, No matter if all cameras are using P2 cards to something random like Apple wont support a camera. I mean you never really know. If future re-selling wasn't an option, then i'd most likely be getting the DVX-100a, but that will have even lower resale then the DVX100B, so thats why I just bit my tounge and said, i'll get the newer DVX100B, Then after considering the price difference, i started looking at the XL2. I Guess we'll just have to see what happens in the next few years...

Again... it is not just an issue of camera or format, it is an issue of WORKFLOW. Look at Guiseppe's stuff, lots and lots of great post work. Doing that in HD or HDV will require a significant hardware upgrade. The obsolete/investment argument is silly, in 5 years the difference in what a used XL2 is worth and what a used FX1 is worth will be marginal. Cameras are not investments, they are tools that depreciate.

that is a great post! maybe the main reason for being an early adaptor is for future-proofing the footage that you'll be shooting today... just be aware that some tv networks do not currently accept formats like hdv, so do your homework first.

how about buying a clean used camera? there are some good deals to be had this time of year, people are hurting because of all the xmas spending.

Do you think you could swing $5500? The HVX200 can be had for that price, and you can shoot on MiniDV tapes in SD anything the DVX100 can, but in native 16X9, and a longer telephoto and slightly wider wide-angle, plus the ability to shoot in HD by plugging in a laptop or getting a $650 4GB P2 card.

The DVX is great. I have one. And the XL2 is also great. But the HVX gives you pretty much everything those two offer, plus newer technology, and the option of going HD in the future, for realtively cheap.

just be aware that some tv networks do not currently accept formats like hdv, so do your homework first.

Ah, but the BBC has said they'll accept widescreen DV footage from the Sony HDV cameras, and you could convert HDV output to something like HDCAM for networks that would sneer at an HDV tape. (An old trick used for converting lowly DV footage to something networks will accept.)

And yes, one of the reasons to buy an HD(V) camera now is so you can start building up a portfolio of HD footage to show when HD becomes more commonplace.

If i had 5500 I wouldve most likely went with the HVX, But i dont come around that much money. Good news though, After a very long morning and lots of problems including limits on multiple credit cards and what not. (Not BH's Fault)I ordered My XL-2 From BHPhoto. Haha, I'm the only person who would pass free shipping and pay 65 Dollars for overnight shipping, Cant wait. Honestly, I really wish i could've ordered from EVS, Randy and Ramsey(i think its spelled) were two of the nicest people i've ever delt with on the phone. But i was a little limited on money, ehh... I also got an extra BP-945 Battery and bought a Hard Case on ebay for 200 Shipped. You guy's will def. see something very soon cause ive got the tapes at hand and cant wait. Thanks everyone for the responses and your ideas on what i should do. I mainly Picked the xl-2 cause having a camera with so many options will only make me wanna work harder to learn new things and add to everything, And the Native 16x9 Widescreen Feature. I'll tell you all what i think when you see the next post in the "DV For the Masses" section. Thanks again :)

Good decision... Congrats!