What happened to the classified section?
Has it been moved or am I missing something?

mike

ditto?
Wondering the same thing?

The evil e-bay suits found us! No!!! They are going to rule the world... Its true! I've seen the future of online ebaying!!!!

Since we've had a few issues with the classified ads recently, Chris is implementing a new policy of restricting access to that forum to members who have been here for awhile with a track record of posts. Looking at your join dates (all less than a month old), I suspect that's why you aren't able to access the classified ads.

Hang on a little longer, when the new policy is final I'm sure Chris will spell it out for everyone. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Sure makes it hard for me to get into the business!!!!!!! I think newbies are probably ones that are in most need of the equipment and probably less knowledgeable about posting.

Oh here's something else to think about (and another post). New members are probably also people looking to sell their equipment and have registered to sell it and also probably have less hours on the equipment then others. I'm looking for someone local anyway and wont really trust someone selling me over a large distance. I still think its up to the discretion (sp) of the buyer to decide on trust and post count is a way to help with that. But then again post count is something that everyone can see and so they can ignore a low post counts sell! Just my 2 cents.

Oh here's something else to think about (and another post). New members are probably also people looking to sell their equipment and have registered to sell it and also probably have less hours on the equipment then others. I'm looking for someone local anyway and wont really trust someone selling me over a large distance. I still think its up to the discretion (sp) of the buyer to decide on trust and post count is a way to help with that. But then again post count is something that everyone can see and so they can ignore a low post counts sell! Just my 2 cents.


Christopher,

Actually it is pretty much the opposite. The new people have often been signing up to post equipment to sell that is non-existant. Many have been links to ebay listings and some were even outright scams.

One lately, regarding the sale of a Z1U, was a total scam and the poster never responded to others. Another recently scammed three members out of their money on a camera purchase, and shipped the camera to no one. These were both new members.

Think of it this way, if you were buying something off of ebay, do you want to deal with someone who has a good rating and has bought and sold hundreds of items, or the guy who just signed up and lists a $3,000.00 camera????

I am sure that Chris will work out a compromise that will work. Many people have not even entered their locations, as required. Perhaps he will figure a way to verify the users ID and valid address etc., at least for the classifieds.

Hang in there! It will work out.

Mike

Not quite fair to those of us who have been members for quite a while and come here to get information. I'm sure a lot of us don't post because either we don't have that much to say or just don't like being flamed. (this forum is not as bad as most)

I've purchased approximately $9,000 worth of cameras and equipment directly from people from this forum. However, my post count is fairly low. Why comment on things just to comment like a lot of people do. Silly.

Every forum that allows selling is open to scams. ebay being the worst. However, I've felt that this board does a great job of policing itself. (ie. the Z1 issue) And it's a relatively safe place if you recognize that if someone is trying to sell a 4K camera for 2K it's probably not legit! We're all big people here (well, most of us anyway) and don't need big brother watching out for us. The government does that enough! ;-)

Don't punish the rest of us for the actions of a VERY few!!!

Rick

PS - Thanks to Greg Bates for my latest purchase last week from this forum. Another XL2 for my arsenal!

I can certainly see both sides of the coin on this issue! Maybe what would be best is a 15-30 day min before posting in this section??

I have to say that the main reason I came here was to pick up some equipment to avoid using ebay. If it means I can trust the users then I'll go with whatever decision is made and will try my best to get up to the needed post count ;)

Don't punish the rest of us for the actions of a VERY few!!!

Rick




It always seems harsh, but it is the way the world works. Every law and rule anywhere is designed to protect 90% of the people from the 10% who will take advantage of or harm them.

It will work out! Perhaps Chris will set up a system whereby those who wish to buy and sell, or just make a post, have to have more personnal information on file. Full real name, address, and phone numbers perhaps.

Mike

We had this same problem on Fred Miranda's site a couple of years ago. Fred was going to drop the Buy/Sell forum all together. Fortunately, there was enough gnashing of teeth by the members that it stayed up.

These boards are great places to get good information and reasonable deals on used equipment. ebay is good, if you're careful. I've bought and sold there for years and have only gotten burned once. I got greedy, trying to get something for nothing. Fortunately, it wasn't too expensive.

If we just realize that every transaction is fraught with dangers, go into it with eyes wide open, and carefully check out the seller BEFORE sending any money, you'll do fine. Heck, we let waiters take our gold AMEX cards every day and disappear into the back hoping they won't copy it. It's a risk. Driving a car is a risk. (especially here in ATL !) But just use common sense and be a little careful. And don't try to get something for nothing!

Rick

(well, if nothing else, this'll get my post count up!)

The "official notice" is located here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=61346

In short, there were two problems. First, a growing number of scam attempts. Second, a large influx of new members coming in for the sole purpose of listing or replying to the Classifieds (no offense intended, but those folks are not the people that I want to attract to this site -- I prefer instead to have members who are into the spirit of friendly, productive community discussions about digital video).

There is another alternative that I just thought of... paid subscriptions. In other words, long-time members continue use the Classifieds for free. We revert back to public display so that unregistered guests can see that forum. New folks (below a certain post count or number of days as a member) would have to pay to play. To list an item costs a certain amount, to respond to a listing might cost a token amount. Pay online by PayPal. How would you feel about that.

Chris, doesn't paying a fee to 'play' as you said, imply some sort of warranty for the user playing?

How about to post a 'for sale' you have to be a long time member? I highly doubt a purchaser of a classified can scam someone out of a camera since in most cases cash is sent before the item is shipped. I'm okay with that. Dunno how you can regulate it but maybe the forsalers can provide private contact information that can otherwise be viewed, just not posted i.e. locked to post? Just an idea.

Keith, I guess I'd have to put that money into a fund to cover that implied warranty, or at least pay for an attorney to draft the neccessary boilerplate stating that a warranty is *not* implied. Either way I'm not getting any richer.

maybe the forsalers can provide private contact information that can otherwise be viewed, just not posted i.e. locked to post?Interesting concept, it would require a sub-registration or possibly an entirely separate registration. I suppose it could be an opt-in at initial registration, but in that case I'm not sure how a person could go back and fill it in later.

Chris,

I appreciate the effort that must go in to running a board like this and i'm sure you're trying to do everything possible to be fair.

I guess having to pay for access would keep out the "passers-by" but won't keep out the "real" scammers. Not if paying something like $2 per month might still make them a quick 2K.

I just don't know a foolproof way to make it 100% clean.

Anyway, I do appreciate the effort and we'll just make do with whatever you come up with. (as long as I have access!) ;-)

Thanks,
Rick

Yup, as a member since August 2003, you definitely have access Rick! It's not about having a high post count, folks... it's all about familiarity.

im pretty bummed on this
ive been lurking these forums for a while now
never really posted much, because well, i havnt really needed anything
and everything ive seen was already answered, so on
i have something for sale in this forum
and well, its kinda something i need to sell soon because im low on cash
and now im screwed because i cant tell if anyone is even wanting to buy it
basicly, the way i see it, is this action was very unfair to the few that arent scammers and happen to use the for sale forum

Tyler your listing is still in there and I have left a notice in your listing that you should be contacted by email. Also, there are a wide variety of other DV for sale forums out there on the web. If you need to sell quickly, the entire internet is at your disposal, and of course there is always Ebay, which is a seller's market anyway.

Yup, as a member since August 2003, you definitely have access Rick! It's not about having a high post count, folks... it's all about familiarity.

Thank god it's not about high post counts. I can imagine the crazy posts that'd pop up in order to get the requisite # of posts.

I wandered over here from cinematography.com because that whole tape brand issue (did a Google search) and found it to be a nice complement to the knowledgebase on the other site. The classifieds (where there was an air of familiarity) was a bonus.

As a newbie (to this board), I understand why this change was made and though it sucks for me because I'm trying to sell my Beachtek -- maybe I'll take it down to B&H and see what they offer me. I'm sure I'll be off probation when I'm ready to plunk down some cash for a used camcorder.

Hi Chien, I have left a notice in your listing also, that you should be contacted by email.

Chris,
Can there be some kind of escrow/holding area option for selling products through DVi for very, Very low $ (% of Sale) so DVi can check them out.

If the seller doesn't opt for the escrow/holding area, then publically let it be know by making thier ad in red or something. This will let potential buyers know there is something fishy going on.

Thanks, Joe Brockert

PS: I agree with Rick:
"Not quite fair to those of us who have been members for quite a while and come here to get information. I'm sure a lot of us don't post because either we don't have that much to say or just don't like being flamed.

I've purchased approximately $9,000 worth of cameras and equipment directly from people from this forum. However, my post count is fairly low. Why comment on things just to comment like a lot of people do. Silly."

I started this string with the question I asked.
I am brand new to the forum and I don't even own a pro video camera (yet).
The posts I read here led me to want a vx2000/2100 or a PD150/170.
Now, because I'm new, I may end up on ebay.
One of the earliest post suggested that only long time members could sell on the forum.
That is genius!
As a buyer, if I am not willing for my payment to be verified by the seller then I can just go to ebay and take my chances!
I would much rather buy here from a long-time member than to mess with ebay.

Hey Chris and fellow members,

I agree that something has to be done to avoid scam artists from ripping off long standing members. However, starting to charge for membership will open a legal can of worms. I imagine it will be more headache than it's worth.

The idea of only established members (however you decide to define that) being able to post ads sounds like a good one, that way us newbies can purchase equipment with less chance of being scammed and scammers won't be able to post ads.

In my case I found your site via a google search for equipment, but discovered that it was much more of a resource than a trading post. In fact I have purchased equipment and switched to a g5 mac from a PC based on info I found on this site.

You mentioned that people who join ONLY to buy and sell equipment are not the type of people you want on here. I can certainly understand that; however, there is a percentage of people who are attracted to the site for the equipment for sale, that will learn about the site and explore all it has to offer, especially after they purchase said equipment.

I'm fairly new at this stuff, but I've really enjoyed being a member of this site and look forward to one day being an established member.

Cheers

Dino

How about just putting restrictions on sellers? I can't think of a reason why someone with a low post count shouldn't be able to buy from someone in this forum. It's the buyer who takes the risk in these transactions.

Just to put in my 2 cents.

I'm new to the forum. I discovered it because . . . I was searching for equipment. I read forums all the time for information about video, sports, or anything else. However, I don't post much. I could be a long time 5 year + member and still not have 100 posts. That's just my personality. If I had some incredible piece of knowledge that would definitely help someone, I would be glad to offer it up. But it's usually just opinions and I typically keep mine to myself. Not mean or anti-social, just quiet. I completely understand the problem and it is unfortunate. But, I have learned a lot in the last couple weeks just seeing what people were selling and looking it up to see how it might benefit me. I think the biggest loser is the sellers. I would think a lot of buyers are "newbies" just breaking into the business. I could be wrong but wouldn't established, long-time professionals be more likely to have the funds to buy NEW? Anyway, like I said, just my 2 cents. I'll now slip back into the shadows to read and absorb information quietly. Hope this situation is resolved in a way that is beneficial to everyone but the scammers.

Mike

I'm sure a lot of us don't post because either we don't have that much to say or just don't like being flamed. (this forum is not as bad as most)While it's already been established that this *isn't* about having a low post count, it does worry me quite a bit when someone says they seldom post for fear of getting flamed. Now that is a big deal, because I originally intended this board to be a completely flame-free zone. Thanks to some exponential growth in the past couple of years, this has been harder to achieve, but if flaming ever happens here then I really want to know about it. The proper course of action is to first, don't reply to it, and second, use the "report bad post" button to the left of every post. That sends an alert to a moderator and we'll take it from there. The one thing I want to accomplish more than anything else, is to encourage lurkers to open up and post. These folks become some of our best members, and several of them are trusted moderators now. We all work hard to make this a flame-free zone, but we need your help, so if you see it then please report it. Thanks,

I could be a long time 5 year + member and still not have 100 posts.Thanks for your input, Mike. Just to clarify, access to the Classifieds is *not* governed solely by post count. Length of time as a registered member is also considered. Those folks who have low post counts but have been with us for more than just a little while, have full access to the Classifieds forum right now (and you will too, soon enough).

Believe me folks. This action has been discussed amongst us moderators a couple times in the past. We ultimately never did anything about it, hoping that these were just isolated incidents. Lately, as Chris stated, it has been happening more. I have bought and sold from other members and I have passed on some good deals because they were folks who were brand new to the forum.

I want to buy and sell with confidence as I would hope everyone does. When you buy from someone who has been here and been active for a while, it gives you a pretty good feeling that the transaction is going to go ok. Those who want to be here, and be a part of this community aren't going to risk all that by scamming someone with a bogus classified ad or a counterfeit payment.

The classifieds should be thought of as an additional service to the community as opposed to the community being an additional service of the classifieds.

regards,

-gb-

How about just putting restrictions on sellers?Just the sellers wasn't enough. I was getting flooded with new registrations that were just looking to reply to the classifieds. The other day someone sent me an email, complaining about the wait in the moderation que (yeah it can be a long one, sorry about that), his message was, "can you hurry up and let me post, I want to bid on an item." No kidding. The good reputation our Classifieds have as an alternative to Ebay is definitely reassuring, but the problem is the more popular it becomes, the more easily damaged it is by a growing influx of scammers. The flip side of this is, I'm also grateful for the new folks who came in looking at the classified ads and decided to stay when they discovered the rest of the board. That's very cool and very much appreciated -- glad to have you guys with us now. However, I'd really rather not have that be a primary avenue of new member registrations. Nothing at all against the folks who found us that way. It's just that this particular process is less than ideal, and most importantly the new member retention factor was simply too low to make it worthwhile. I hate to admit that, but it's the truth.

I understand that Chris. I was just making the point about my "posting habits". I think this forum is awesome. I have already passed it on to other people I know in my area. I wish I had discoved it earlier. Anyway, I'm getting pulled way out my internet comfort zone.....LOL I have now posted more on this site than some I have been reading for years. I will "obviously" play by whatever rules are implemented, but I wonder if I would have spent enough time on the site to discover how much info is here if I would not have found the "trading post" I was looking for when I stumbled in. In fact, I wonder how many members discovered the site looking for used equipment? I don't know the answer of course. But it would be interesting to know.

Thanks
Mike

Thanks Mike and I agree that would be nice to know. Believe it or not, the higher-level moderators and myself would actually prefer it if this site was just "the best kept secret on the web." We're not looking for a huge number of members, topics, or posts... all we're interested in are the best people and the best discussions. There's very little marketing invloved, practically none in fact, and it's almost too big as it is now. In fact we're working on keeping the total membership at 20,000 by clearing out old accounts as new ones come in. Even with nearly half a million posts this is still considered a small community, and that's just fine with us. Thanks again for your input,

Sorry Chris. You all have done way to good of a job and provided to much valuable information to remain the best kept secret on the web. . .LOL Thanks again for a great site. NM

Sorry Chris. You all have done way to good of a job and provided to much valuable information to remain the best kept secret on the web. . .LOL Thanks again for a great site. NM

I agree. This site is amazing!

Just the sellers wasn't enough. I was getting flooded with new registrations that were just looking to reply to the classifieds.

Why can't the seller post some type of contact info? Then the potential buyer won't need to reply?
BTW....how much time is required to have been a member? I do a lot more reading than posting....but I sure miss perusing the classifieds....
Mark

Most sellers do list an email address right in the post. And you don't have long to wait Mark!

Thanks Chris..... Unfortunately I have more to learn from here than to give. And I have learned a lot just from reading the last few months. Keep up the good work. It is appreciated!!
Mark

I bought a lot of lighting for our studio right here off this site. I was lucky of course that the seller (Patrick Gault) was in a Michigan and me in Chicago and it was HIM that actually offered to meet me half-way (Indiana). Not only was everything as he described but he threw in a couple extras just for the heck of it. I never came here to buy anything, came becasue of the endless learning experience but it turned out to be a nice bonus.

I for one understand why Chris did what he did and I'll wait till my time comes up. If you came here to only buy something, one your probably in the wrong place and two, your wasting a great community's endless knowledge.

Hey, but what hell do I know? ;)

Why don't you just check out your members before joining... I joined DWF which is a phtographers forum.. I was contacted by the founder questioned... and allowed on..
I support the forum members by buying equiptment from them whenever possible.. in fact when I sell equiptment I give a better price to members than I can get on ebay... You should do a little checking... Ask new members if they are members of other forum.. contact the other forums and see "how they are viwed... ect.. before you let them in...
but as far as removing the forsale section because some people were not carefull ..to me is ridiclious.. My M-F day job is a Police Sergeant in NY...
you can not stop people that do theses types of crimes as a "job"... thy will always figure a way around...I think that you should check out new members better... and post some type of liability wavier that the forum is not responsible... if not all you are doing is punishing the whole for some of the few...I have been doing video/ photography as a weekend warrior for 20+ years and run two stores with my four boys... every year I buy and sell equiptment... and I feel out my sellers and buyers myself with phone calls ect... tell your members to buy with safer practices... I would love to know the details of how these members were scammed.. I'll bet it could have been avoided with some common sense...I've caught two scammers on ebay.. just by asking for contact information to my sellers.. and checking them out... usually a scamster does not have the "full" normal contact info...
name..
address...
phone..
business...
go online and check if the phone matches the address... its free to check...
ect...
simple methods...
tell the members to do thier homework...
feel free to contact me.. a new member to this forum.. but not a new member in the video world.. in fact if any of you remember Bob Lebar the animator... I was his partner that brought his animations to the computer platform on a amiga about 20years ago..

Hi Robert and welcome to Dvinfo. The Personal Classifieds forum isn't being removed. Perhaps Chris will have additional thoughts but my own two cents: Classifieds is a value-added service and not the main purpose of this site. DVinfo has no obligation to provide the Classified services to all comers. The ads are now limited to well-established members.

While you're undeniably correct that the scammers will always be out there, it isn't our goal to put them out of business (we leave that to you peace officers) but rather to secure our "DVinfo home" from them with the resources we have. I know Chris already spends a LOT of his time reviewing new member requests, and would probably agree that it isn't practical to do a general background check on everyone who wants to join DVinfo. I took a quick look at DWF and it is a very different animal: a $99/year pay site with 7520 registered members and only six forums to moderate. It's a lot easier to put manpower into background checks when your revenues are somewhere above $750,000/year for a pay site than it is when you run a free site with dozens of forums and over 20,000 members.

Sorry we can't please every new member whose purpose is to buy and sell stuff, but that's not why DVinfo has over 20,000 members.

I'm sure we will all ultimately support your choice - its a great site with a wealth of information.

Chris, 1st of all the forum is great. I, like a lot of others stumbled across this site last november. I have been in television for 16 years and this is by far one of the best sources of "free" information. I have just started my own production company this year and this site is helpful in many ways including the classifieds. It's nice to know you can buy good used equipment from trusted members. Hopefully I will have enough posts and time in soon
enough to return to the classifieds as well. In the mean time I will continue to post and help others when I can. Thanks,

Mark Bournes
Shark Video Productions

heres my opinon.. The classified section is one of my favs seeing that i have bought and sold cameras and lenses and am always on the hunt for a deal.. that along with the awesome array of info i have found on this site is the reason i can sit here for hours on end like a zombie.

heres my suggestion:

I think that EVERYONE should have access to the forum to VIEW the posts. They can reply in email to the seller and the seller can use his/her own discretion at that point. Posting items for sale could be restricted to long standing known members on the site that have a track record of not being a scammer from Germany who has a preference of western union as a payment method.. As always exceptions could be made by forwarding any requests to chris and he could have the final say and use his discretion.

i think that could work better.. but thats just me .. and im not the kennelmaster!!!
(sorry for anyone who's not a scammer from germany who might be insulted by my biased opinion :) .. ive just dealt with a few who were.)

Just wanted to add my 2 cents Canadian. I'm a member of several different forums such as this one and one of the other forums I frequent has some good buy/sell rules that help avoid fraud. All items posted for sale must be accompanied by actual pictures. All pictures must include a piece of paper with the date and your forum username written on it. Although this doesn't guarantee against fake sellers 100%, it definitely helps.

I found the z1u guy emailed him and it turned out to be a scam. Somehow i feel responsible since i posted that the listing was a scam. It doesnt take a genuis to figure out which listings are real and which are fake.

For people to pay money and never get a camera is wrong but easily avoidable. If you pay with a credit card (convience checks,paypal ,etc ) and dont recieve your merchandiseyou can always file a dispute and get credit immediately.

" We can police ourselves" , I like most users come here to read info and learn about the camera world. Since I dont have any equipment, other than a jvc $400 camera,I am also looking for equipment as well. This is a great outlet for info and equipment and it's a shame to let it get ruined by a few morally challenged.


Please reinsert the classified section, and if needed just add a disclaimer.

You only see them when you login.

-gl

What happened to the classified section?
Has it been moved or am I missing something?

mike

From what Chris said, I am glad that he is proactive and taking steps to protect the integrity of this board (even though I would like to still be able to read the listings and perhaps offer some items myself right now). Sounds like things were starting to get out of hand. If this board starts attracting swarms of people registering simply to buy and sell, the scammer scum of the earth, who really need to get a life (preferably in a Siberian jail cell), will eventually arrive in force.

Real stinking cute. Yeah I am new here, but I grew up in the production business. My dad learned the movie business and started his own production business in 1947. I was born in 1944 and the only work I have ever done is film, video and still photography. I did it well enough to win about 3 dozen major awards for production excellence including 3 "Emmy" awards for directing television documentaries.

I joined a few weeks ago to be able to get answers to some questions relating to DV video production and editing which I am getting back into.

I had a DV camera fail and Sony made me a deal for a new camera. I posted several accessories from the DV camera that I no longer needed and now I can't even monitor the classified section. I have a 100% rating on E-Bay (mostly Yamaha motorcycle parts).

I am a member of the Acoustic Guitar Forum and there are thousands of dollars worth of guitars that change hands through that forum and I my impression is that there is little or no scamming going on. I have purchased two Taylor guitars from AGF members (a Taylor Custom shop 810 and a 420) and the deals went perfect.

Just my $.02 worth.

Like I've said before, that board is a privilege for those who have earned it for the time they've put in here over the long run. Its use is reserved for those who call this place home. New members need to earn the right by putting in the time and effort.

It's not about how trustworthy or honest you are, because that's expected up front from everybody here in the first place. It's not about how many awards you've won, I could care less; awards are great for building egos but they don't make any difference here. There are about a squillion other places online where you can buy and sell gear; plenty of other sites you can go to for that purpose. Nobody is adversely affected by this; nobody is inconvenienced; nobody's rights are being infringed. Simply point your browser to www.someothersite.com and move on.

I have no clue aout the personal histories of any newly registered members coming into this community and have no way whatsoever of knowing who is who. And no I am not about to verify anybody's transaction records or dig up Ebay feedback or do background checks or any of that stuff, that's way, way too extreme and invasive for my blood. And trust me, I'm not losing any sleep if somebody feels like they don't want to put in the time to earn a simple membership privilege.

My apologies for the rant, y'all -- I can't help but feel like our classifieds board was being taken for granted, for far too long. Once again... that forum is reserved as a membership perk for those who have put in the time and effort here at DV Info Net. There are no other criteria, besides the honesty and trustworthiness that you're already assumed to have when you first came here. For new folks, if you posted something in the Classifieds, then you'll get an email from any prospective buyers.