I finally recieved my Canon 20x HDGC half inch HD lens. So I spent about an hour this evening doing some quick (and rough) tests to see how it performances compared to my Canon YH19 half inch SD lens. Well here are the frame grabs.

http://www.ingenioustv.co.uk/clips/canonhdgc.zip
http://www.ingenioustv.co.uk/clips/canonyh19.zip
http://www.ingenioustv.co.uk/clips/canonhdchart.zip
http://www.ingenioustv.co.uk/clips/canonsdchart.zip

The exterior shots were at f5.6, 30mm
The chart shots at f2, 40mm

The chart is a computer printed chart on A4 photo paper so the resolution scales are inaccurate. Camera gain was -3db, Gamma 3, Detail set at the Sony default.

On the two exteriors it is very difficult to see any difference, the HD lens appears to have a little less CA. The chart is a little more revealing! If you look carefully at the resolution scales towards the center I think you can clearly see that the HD lens is just a bit sharper... BUT LOOK AT THE EDGES!!! YUK! The HD lens clearly has problems at the edges and in the corners. The SD lens is softer at the edges too, but not nearly as bad as the rather blurred HD lens. This should not be so. The HD lens is double the cost of the SD lens, yet it is very soft away from the center, I would expect the HD lens to at least match the SD lens. I'll try to do some more accuarte tests tomorrow with a bigger monitor to check the focus.

You're right. The softening on the res chart on the HD lens is pretty horrendous.

And there does seem to be pretty much no difference between the two exterior shots too.

More tests would be good, but even if your focus was slightly out, the softening is pretty bad.

Would be interesting to check for straightness of verticals on miniumum zoom too to see how they compare.

thank you Alister.
This is very informative.
Can u also test sharpness with chart on different zoom lengths?
Maybe the softness is less apparent in diff zoom length?

And, does anyone here owns a Fuji HD lens? :)

And, does anyone here owns a Fuji HD lens? :)

Yes, I have the 18x5.5 1/2 HD lens on my F350.

-gb-

This is consistent with my lens shopping experiences too. I've been driving all over Burbank (where there's a lot of lenses for sale) and rolling off on charts where available, and just whatever is out the front door when a chart isn't available.

I seem to have found a Canon H series 1/2" lens that seems to be remarkably sharp throughout most of it's range, although it does soften up wide open. It is markedly better than the S series Fujis, and YH series Canons that are all over.

The other 1/2" SD lenses are mixed bags. All, at times and given the right subject matter, can fool the eye for an HD lens. The devil of course is in the details, and this is where they fail...they can't deliver a uniformly sharp image at all focus settings and throughout the zoom range. I believe this is more or less what you Alister have been saying all along, yes?

I would be the last person to spout off about conspiracy theories and the like, but is some of this why the manus keep MTF charts scarce?

I have done some further comparisons, the resulting frame grabs are here..

3x Jpegs in each zip file.

http://www.ingenioustv.co.uk/clips/canonhdgcnew.zip
http://www.ingenioustv.co.uk/clips/canonsdnew.zip

Test chart shot at 10mm focal length f2.8 plus 2x exterior shots at 6.7mm (approx on the HD lens which goes to 6.4) at f16 and f4.

My conclusion is that the Canon KH20x6.4 is sharper than the Canon YH19x6.7. Neither lens performs particularly well at f16, both perform best between f11 and f4. The difference between the two is fairly constant across the zoom range, both exhibit minor barrel distortion when fully wide. More open than f5.6 the KH20 HD lens becomes noticably soft at the edges and in the corners, more so than the YH19, past f2.8 it's blurred.

I guess this is kind of what I expected, with the exception of the very soft edges with the HD lens. The difference between the two lenses is not huge and in most cases the YH19 would (IMHO) pass for an HD lens.

The KH20 is better built than the YH19, less plastic and more metal, but I have to say that I am not yet convinced that it is worth the extra money. Compared to a 2/3 inch HD lens this is a pretty cheap lens, so to expect perfection is a bit much but the softness at the edges is cause for concern.

After running into serious sharpness issues while shooting computer screens with a Fujinon HD 18x5.5, I too ran some tests on HD lenses available for XDCAM HD camcorder and am quite puzzled by the results. I tested 3 lenses, Fujinon XDCAM HD 1/2" lenses (18x5.5 and 13x3.3) and for the sake of it, a standard definition Canon lens (7.8x21) by shooting a lens sharpness chart of a 21" LCD monitor. The Canon SD lens yielded the best results....

See the screen grabs at:

www.telecamfilms.com/hdlenstests.html

Thierry

Very interesting Thierry. I have felt that the Fuji 18x5.5 is kind of soft, but I don't have a lens file set up for it either. Have you done any lens files for these lenses to optimize their performance?

-gb-

No, there are currently no lens files available for this lens and I dont' know really were to start to create one from scratch.... I assume the upcoming version of XDCAM HD firmware will include lens files for most 1/2" lenses currently available. In any case, I don't expect the poor performances of the Fujinon 5.5x18 to improve much by using different lens files. One thing I should note here is that I was informed by my contact at Sony that the Fujinon lens I now have is a pre-production model and that the production model has improved. I am hoping to have access to it soon.

Thierry.

Dear all in the know,
Will all 1/2" SD lens (fuji/canon for XDCAM SD) fit directly into the new XDCAM HD?

Regs,
hornady

All half inch SONY mount lenses should fit the XDCAM HD range. Lenses with a half inch Panasonic mount will not fit. Most of the sony lenses have a series of contact pins that electrically connect the lans to the camera, but a separate lens connector is also fitted to the camera body for 2/3inch lenses and lenses that use a cabled connection.

Will all 1/2" SD lens (fuji/canon for XDCAM SD) fit directly into the new XDCAM HD?

The lenses used on XDCAM SD are all 2/3". So you'd need an adaptor to mount them to XDCAM HD.

I'm encouraged by your tests that I may be able to start out with an SD lens and then eventually upgrade to an HD lens. So I'd like to get some opinions.

First off, which YH19 lens are you using. There is a big price range from $2000-8000 for different ones.

I expect to be editing for the next couple years in SD. So am I better off getting an F330 and shooting in HD with a cheaper SD lens to allow future HD use of the video or buying a cheaper HDV camera with a built-in lens?

Also how does the 1/2" lens sizes convert to 35mm angles? I've always used 35mm to figure out wide/telephoto sizes. When it says 6.7-127mm what does that mean to 35mm sizes?

The lens SD I have been using is a Canon YH19x6.7.

I have been using the HD lens some more and there is a difference, but it is small and it is dependant on the focal length. It may be an option to buy a SD lens now and upgrade as funds allow, which is what I did.

To convert to 35mm equivalent focal lengths you multiply the 1/2" focal length by 5.46. So for example my 20x6.4 HD lens is the equivalent of a 35 to 698mm 35mm lens.

There are a few varieties of the YH19x6.7 lens, they are:

IRS for $8000
KTS for $4400 and
KRS for $2000

Are there significant quality differences between them?

The 1/2" Canon H9ax3.8IRS I just bought is amazing.

It's like a 1/2" version of a J11x4.5 with a heavy build, and it's sharp. More importantly though, it's consistent throughout the zoom range. It only softens up on the long end of the extender WFO.

I'd seriously stake out Ebay looking for one of these.

There are a few varieties of the YH19x6.7 lens, they are:

IRS for $8000
KTS for $4400 and
KRS for $2000

Are there significant quality differences between them?

The IRS has an extender. The KRS has no extender. Aside from that, there should be no major quality differences.

Hello,

I did a comparison between pro-grade 1/2" lenses from Canon and Fuji. Like most, I am leaning towards keeping the SD lens for now.

The lenses were:
1. Canon Kh20x6.4 (HDgc mid-grade HD lens) $8000
2. Fuji S16x6.5 (mid-grade SD lens) $3000

Each shot was at f4 at 15mm using a Sony F350 camera. Screen was Cinema Display 20" from about 5 feet. Tried my best to level the whole thing. There was a 20% brightness enhancement of the TIFF files in Photoshop. From there I exported "10" quality jpeg files for upload to the webserver. Native resolution was 1440 x 1080. Please keep in mind that I am shooting a computer screen and not a physical resolution chart.

Here are the links:
http://ttf.sdsu.edu/Canon_KH20x6.4.jpg
http://ttf.sdsu.edu/Fuji_S19x6.5.jpg

My initial conclusion: The two lenses are surprisingly close! The Canon was marginally sharper in the corners, but not $5000 sharper IMHO. Makes me wonder about the whole HD marketing madness. There was also mild pincusion distortion on both lenses at 15mm. I suspect both lenses would do worse if they were at f2 or above f11. Both lenses need minor white-shading correction. Does anbody know how to use the white-shading menus on the f350 (I own vectorscope and home-made lens box)...??

It looks like I will not purchase an HD 1/2" lens initially for my own system. My Fuji S lens works for my needs right now. It goes just as wide as the HD lens and at f4 appears just as sharp. "Live" tests of both lenses confirmed my suspicions regarding sharpness. To be sure, more tests will be carried out in the future. I want to test the Fuji Xs18 series and Canon JH series to see what all that extra money gets... ;-)

Cheers,
-Greg

p.s. Thanks to Val Reynolds at Sony for the generous loan of the XDcam system.

.... I tested 3 lenses, Fujinon XDCAM HD 1/2" lenses ...... See the screen grabs at:

www.telecamfilms.com/hdlenstests.html

Thierry

I updated the test page with more frame grabs for lens sharpness, chroma aberation and gain. The new link is:

www.telecamfilms.com/xdcam.html

Enjoy!

Thierry.

All half inch SONY mount lenses should fit the XDCAM HD range. Lenses with a half inch Panasonic mount will not fit. Most of the sony lenses have a series of contact pins that electrically connect the lans to the camera, but a separate lens connector is also fitted to the camera body for 2/3inch lenses and lenses that use a cabled connection.

I have a Fuji S8.5X4.2BERM 1/2 "lens that has a Panasonic B4 mount. I am planning to use the Sony lens adapter (B4 to Sony mount)to mount the lens and then use the 12 pin cable to obtain lens control. I don't know why this shouldn't work but I plan to put it to the test this next week. Hope it works because this is a beautiful piece of glass.

I updated the test page with more frame grabs for lens sharpness, chroma aberation and gain. The new link is:

www.telecamfilms.com/xdcam.html

Enjoy!

Thierry.

Since I have the same 18x5.5 lens, "enjoy" I did indeed:-)

Made me think that perhaps when buying such expensive glass a person should purchase under the caveat that the lens must pass certain tests otherwise it will be returned or exchaNGED FOR SOMETHING THAT DOES MEET CERTAIN INDUSTRY STANDARDS OR CAMERAMAN EXPECTATIONS FOR THE MONEY.

(oops..there goes that caps lock shouting thing again).

BTW....should those standards include a test involving shooting a train with a carbine, or the more extreme test of actually blowing up both a train and a tunnel? I might find that a little difficult to emulate:-)

Great shot......

Michael

Bob, you will not be able to use the Panasonic B4 1/2 inch lens. The Panasonic 1/2 inch lenses have a standard B4 mount the same as you would find on a 2/3 inch B4 lens. The F350/330 uses a mount that looks at first galnce to be the same as a B4 mount but is in fact a different size. The Sony/Optex adapter converts from the Sony 1/2 inch mount to a 2/3 inch B4 mount but also alters the Flange Back distance to match 2/3 inch lenses. Because of the different Flange Back distances you can't use the Panasonic lens.

Alister, you are correct. I checked and the back flange distance is different (about 10mm). I do know a broadcast lens technician that may be able to change the panasonic mount to a sony mount. Thanks for the input.

Having seen soft image issues reported here and in my own experience, I took my Hs18X5.5ERD lens in to the local service center. Tech put it on the collimator and confirmed my suspicions.

He did all the adjusting he could, but still thought it was a bit 'hazy'. After speaking with the main service center in NJ, my lens was overnighted for diagnosis where they have the 'really expensive', testing capabilities.

After two days, got a call back from local tech saying that my lens was back, but it wasn't the one I brought in. The serial number was identified as being a pre-production version of the lens and they want to get as many of those out of circulation as possible.

They asked me to put the word out that if you think you have one of these lenses (Thierry), to contact Eddie at the main service center in NJ and they will swap it for a brand new one.

We put my replacement lens on the local tech's collimator and it was a nice, tight dot. My original had a flare emanating towards 11 o'clock. The images I'm getting now are stunningly beautiful.

Just thought I would share my experience for the benefit of the community.

regards,

-gb-

Is there a serial number reference for what is "pre-production" and what is not?

Interested, because we have an HSs18x5.5BRM....and I am not totally stoked with the pictures.

Michael KNight.

Is there a serial number reference for what is "pre-production" and what is not?

Interested, because we have an HSs18x5.5BRM....and I am not totally stoked with the pictures.

Michael KNight.

Best bet Michael is to put in a call to NJ and ask for Eddie. You need to check into it for sure.

Service centers and contacts can be found here.

http://www.fujinonbroadcast.com/service.shtml

good luck,

-gb-