Been using FCP and XDCam HD for a while now and a bit baffled by the lack of speed in the workflow. Help me figure out what we are doing wrong: I thought the FAM mode was supposed to curtail that "old school" way of digitizing. In other words, input and output was file based and therefor faster and more convenient than traditional workflow. So far, input is no quicker than traditional digitizing and export back to Disc takes MUCH LONGER than simple print to tape in the past. What gives?

Sony is aware of the issue and is working on it. Possible relief in the forthcoming camera firmware update.

-gb-

Is this a 24p issue or an XDCam HD issue or both?

Seems to be a Mac issue! Well, Mac FAM issue anyway. The PC has no such problems.

It is quite silly that there have been so many issues implementing this onto the Mac.

What speeds are you getting Dan, upon import?

The export to disc issue is just a computing horsepower deal...it will get better with a faster computer. MPEG2 takes muscle.

My import speeds on both a G5 Quad and MacBook are fine, around 2x realtime, ie: 35 mins to import 70 mins from a full disk. Export is slower because of rendering, but that's to be expected. I get similar performance with a PC.

I'm using a Mac Quad so speed of computer shouldn't be an issue. Import is pretty quick but again it seems silly that it takes longer than real time to export. Makes you want to go back to the old print to tape days. I thought this was supposed to speed up workflow not slow it down.

but again it seems silly that it takes longer than real time to export.

It's the nature of MPEG. It takes a lot of fugging horsepower to render an MPEG steam in HD. It's just one of those things you learn when researching the format and say "well, I can deal with that" or "that's a deal killer for me". To say it seems silly that it takes longer than real time seems to imply that the companies are being lazy or something...when the truth is it's just the limits of computing at the moment.

I like to think of these first years of MPEG codecs like the first years of DV...everything renders slow, the software is iffy, and it's barely better than the alternatives. But it is a tiny bit better, and I'm betting it will get better yet.

I do feel your pain though. XDCAM isn't like shooting to a hard drive and then editing from that. It's more like an automated/simplified tape system in practice. Keep in mind the people shooting to P2 and hard drives need to take extra steps (and time) to backup their media, so it's not like their life is so rosy either!

I'm sure you're right Nate but efficiency of wokflow is one of Sony's biggest selling points for XDCam. Right now, if I want to export a 30 minute program to disk for HiDef review it takes over an hour. Then, if after review, we want to change one thing, we have to go back into the NLE, change it and re-export it for 70 more minutes. I guess we'll just play it back in real time out of our Kona card for now so that it can be crash recorded back to disk via HD-SDI to save time. Oh well, I'm sure you're right that the format is in its infancy and it will get better with time- I'm looking forward to that. In the mean time we'll look on the positive side and enjoy the CineAlta capabilities of the camera system (24p, timelapse, slo-mo...etc...) at a bargain price.

I guess we'll just play it back in real time out of our Kona card for now so that it can be crash recorded back to disk via HD-SDI to save time.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe the camera can accept input via HD-SDI, only output. You can however, hook up a firewire cable simultaneously and use it for deck control while getting the stuff out via HD-SDI. Mike Curtis and I did exactly that when we captured the last disc from the Texas HD Shootout into his system.

-gb-

Seems to be a Mac issue! Well, Mac FAM issue anyway. The PC has no such problems.

It is quite silly that there have been so many issues implementing this onto the Mac.

No, it's a camera issue. Your 510 may be ok, but the 350 has some firmware issues regarding disc access. If you take the whole clip for import, it's fast. If you set in/out points, it slows the import down considerably.

On the PC, you can't even do Partial FAM copy (using Proxy Browser) because it errors out. I raised the issue with Sony and they have duplicated the problem. They indicated it's a camera issue.

-gb-

I predict within the next two years we'll see computers that can encode 1080p MPEG in real time.

There's a greyed out video output option in FCP for HDV output to firewire...ostensibly so when the CPUs become powerful enough, they'll output an m2t stream for monitoring. If/when this happens, your conforming time will be zero.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe the camera can accept input via HD-SDI, only output.
-gb-

Yeah, I was talking about using the HD-SDI input on the F-70 deck.

Yeah, I was talking about using the HD-SDI input on the F-70 deck.

Since you have an F-70 deck, you should be getting very fast import. Export is still going to be an MPEG2 encode issue, but your clips should come in pretty quick via XDCam Transfer.

There are firmware updates available for the deck already. Might want to contact Sony to make sure yours is the latest revision.

-gb-

No, you're righ Greg. Import isn't a problem. It's exporting that is making me a bit crazy. I wish I could export through Kona 3 in real time but there is no XDCam HD plug-in from Kona. Just HD-SDI flavors which obviously then effects your entire workflow.

Are you sure you can't export via HD SDI, I can do it from my BMD Extreme card and they have no easy setup for XDCam HD too. I simply create an XDCam timeline then change the easy setup to anything with 1080i output and I get output in real time.

You make a good point Steve. I'm working in 24p so I guess i could import via XDCam Transfer in "35mbps 1080p24 VBR", make sure my sequence settings match then when I'm ready to export, choose a Kona 3 output that has 1080p24. Hmmm, seems too simple but I'll try it. Am I taking a quality hit by transcoding the native XDCam HD codec to the Kona HD-SDI output?

You make a good point Steve. I'm working in 24p so I guess i could import via XDCam Transfer in "35mbps 1080p24 VBR", make sure my sequence settings match then when I'm ready to export, choose a Kona 3 output that has 1080p24.

1080p24 export on the Kona can mean one of two things. It can be a preset where the Kona is adding pulldown to bring the timeline up to 1080i60 on the fly, OR it could be switching the HD-SDI output to 23.98PsF. Check the manual.

Hmmm, seems too simple but I'll try it. Am I taking a quality hit by transcoding the native XDCam HD codec to the Kona HD-SDI output?

Going from any timeline to any flavor of SDI (HD-SDI included) is a lossless conduit. Remember, HD-SDI is uncompressed. Of course your signal is recompressed to the codec in the deck you're going to (DVCPRO HD or HDCAM or XDCAM HD)

1080p24 export on the Kona can mean one of two things. It can be a preset where the Kona is adding pulldown to bring the timeline up to 1080i60 on the fly, OR it could be switching the HD-SDI output to 23.98PsF. Check the manual.


Actually, come to think of it, it's not adding the pulldown. Before FCP 5.1.2 we worked with Sony XDCam HD at 35mbps/ 24p and imported it into FCP via Kona 3 using Kona 1080p/24 Easy Setup (created huge files but worked). Exported finished product via same Kona Easy Setup in FCP to Sony F-70 deck via HD-SDI in real time and all worked flawlessly (except of course for the massive file sizes resulting from the "Uncompressed" material. Good thing we had a big ol' XServe Raid). Sony deck was in 24p mode frequency and accepted the signal from the 24p timeline (If it was in 24p system mode and I was trying to feed it 60i material, I assume it would have rejected it just like it does when you try to put a 60i disk into it when it is in 24p system mode). If logic holds here, we should be able to export Kona 1080p/24 material (regardless of its original codec) from a Sony XDCam HD 24p timeline without a problem... Famous last words... More to come tomorrow...

Greg,
Are you saying the F-70 Deck allows for faster
input for an Apple then going thru the Camera's firewire port
into the Apple?

Is there a chart out there that shows typical transfer/conversion
times between the XDCAM and a Mac Pro Tower, Etc?
thanks, rob

My experience with the F70 is that the transfers are just a little faster than direct from the camera, but not by a huge amount. That said the F70 is more responsive when navigating through the proxies.