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Old July 2nd, 2004, 02:52 PM   #196
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>>>>>>>>True enough.. there is no real reason to buy the XL1s anymore, sure you can change lenses but the CCDS are getting really old.. almost 20% less than a DVX.

Respectfully, having solid experience with both the XL1S and the DVX100 and DVX100a - I will say that both are excellent cameras. The Xl1S is still a very viable solution for those who have a need for the many lens options that the XL mount provides. Such as nature and wildlife videographers who have a need for *affordable* extreme telephoto lenses with optical Image Stabilization that the DVX100 series does not provide, due to the fixed 10X lens. A good friend of mine, Art Smith, a seasoned wildlife cinematographer who is currently relying on the XL platform to obtain spectacular close-up wildlife footage is one example. Look for the July issue of Government Video Magazine for a cover story on Art Smith and how he is utilizing his XL1S in the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve in Alaska. I have already seen some of the images he is creating and they are truly beautiful. Also, a great deal of other professionals with various applications are currently relying on the XL platform in the here and now.

Yes, the DVX100a is a solid solution for some, no doubt. But the XL platform is also a solid solution and is still to this day being widely used by many, many professionals for it's own unique feature set.

Just wanted to make a friendly observation.

Best regards,

- don
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 03:29 PM   #197
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Indeed, just to second Don's remarks (as an owner of the XL1S, DVX100, and DVX100A...and previous owner of the XL1) the DVX is arguably the best camera in its price class for certain categories of applications, particularly dramatic work. But it is useless for wildlife photography and kindred applications with long-lens or interchangeable lens requirements. The XL1S remains the most peerlessly versatile camera within its price bracket. It can still do it all. I certainly have no immediate plans to sell mine!
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 04:47 PM   #198
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Wow, anticipation for the XL2 is killing me. I can't believe NO ONE on the internet could leak information about the XL2. I have searched and googled for over two hours. No one has a picture, a drawing, or ANYTHING of it. Canon is very tight lipped. I really wish they gave sneak peeks of their products.
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 05:04 PM   #199
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"I really wish they gave sneak peeks of their products.

It's a double edged sword.
At least with Canon we know that as soon as an announcement is made, a shipping date will probably be announced as well.

If they had already leaked the details on a new camera, we'd all be sitting around complaining about the lack of a shipping date.

I kind of like the way Canon does things. You may not know exactly where they are headed all the time, but you know what you're getting, and when.

While Panasonic is showing off balsa wood prototypes of things that might be available in 2006, and Sony is showing off plastic shell prototypes of cameras that should be available sometime next year, Canon will only show off the camera when it is good and ready to be shown. And, the camera they show off is the camera you will be able to buy (at least, that's how it has always worked in the past with them.) And, I should add, wiht Canon, when they show off a new camera, it will be shipping not too long after that (not in 2005, or 2006 like some other companies).

So, yeah, it woudl be nice to know.
But keep in mind that just because other manufacturers are blabbing about what they are going to do.... nothing says that Panasonic or Sony are definitely releasing cameras exactly like the prototypes they showed off.

-Luis
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 05:06 PM   #200
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yes indeed.. I wont start the post where you can put a 2x extender on the DVX and have an optically stabilized 800mm lens for far cheaper than any optically stabilized add on lens for the XL1, that debate could go on for hours. I am obviously a little biased towards the DVX, I run a large community focused on it. But If the XL2 is a better camera, i'll be one of the first ones in line to buy it.

True though, for wildlife and other video work the xl1 is a true workhorse, and the XL1 may be better suited. The DVX is more of a filmakers camera, and Im sure the XL2 if it addresses some of the DVX features the XL2 will take the reign as #1 again. Thats the wonders of this pro-sumer industry, it changes almost bi-annually.


and as for the prototypes.. the DVX kinda came in as a surprise as well, and that balsa thing is definately a consumer based product.. its not a DVX replacement and never intended to be.

Im not sure if I like canon's idea of keeping in the dark, I can tell you at least 800 people that jumped off the Canon camp and switched to the DVX just because there was no clue if the XL2 was coming around the corner or not. If they gave some sort of clue or timeframe, Im sure alot of XL1 users would sit by and wait.
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 05:40 PM   #201
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Daniel Broadway:

<< I can't believe NO ONE on the internet could leak information about the XL2. No one has a picture, a drawing, or ANYTHING of it. >>

Where have you been? Jarred Land has had an XL2 photo on his site for months!

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Old July 2nd, 2004, 05:43 PM   #202
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ha ha thanks Chris :)

And yes this is the first place I will come to find out the info.
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 06:29 PM   #203
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>> ... I can tell you at least 800 people that jumped off the Canon camp and switched to the DVX just because there was no clue if the XL2 was coming around the corner or not. <<

People, particularly young men, are embarrassingly fickle for the latest "cool" thing. Unlike pro cameras that are marketed as components of total production systems requiring serious capitalization or commercial leasing, these cameras are within common Visa limits. Those who "jumped off the Canon camp" would jump right back on in a heartbeat for a "cool" or "chick magnet" camera.

Canon knows this very, very well. Time is on their side.
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 06:38 PM   #204
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Hello Jarred,

Just out of curiousity, who makes that 2X extender you mentioned and how much is it? Have you used it at all? I would be curious if you feel that having the focus ring behind a 2X adaptor (rather than in front of the optics) is the ideal situation for maintaining sharp extreme telephoto focal images?

I know of one professional who gets 7000mm+ effective focal lengths by using a mechanical Leica-XL adaptor built by Jeff Kreines and some Leica Modul lenses. Has to mount a gyro-stabilizer to the bottom of his XL1S rig to keep the images steady. However, it allows him to get outstanding full-frame compositions (rather than settling for wide shots) of wild animals from hundreds of feet away. The images are spectacular and sharp as a tack.

On the flip side (and much more affordable), you can use the 7.2X conversion factor of the Canon EF adaptor to your advantage for extreme telephoto well beyond 800mm *with* Image Stabilization for under a thousand dollars. For example, the Canon 28-135mm IS USM lens http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/con...9&modelid=7337 (effective 201-972mm with the XL1S) or the Canon 75-300mm IS USM lens http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/con...0&modelid=7342 (effective 540-2160mm with the XL1S). Again, these lenses have built-in Image Stabilization and they can be purchased for around $430 each. That is considered cheap for those working professionals that truly have a need for these type of extreme focal lengths in their work. Try renting a 2000mm Image Stabilized lens from your local camera rental outfit. It would likely cost hundreds of dollars a day for that rental, if it were even available. Then there is also all of the other EF IS lenses available which many XL1S shooters take advantage of. Some of these shooters are DVi members. In addition to the Canon EF adaptor, there are many other types of mechanical and optical adaptors available too.

With the XL1S, you have complete control over lens options from the front of the lens straight to behind the optics where the actual capture is made. The DVX does not, you have to use adaptors in front of a fixed lens. For this reason, when the new XL does become available, many professionals may likely feel that instead of comparing the new XL to the DVX100a, it would be more realistic to stack the new XL against what the older XL1S was/is capable of or to at least compare it to other higher priced full-sized camcorders costing thousands and thousands of dollars more.

Again, no one here is saying that the DVX100 or DVX100a is a crummy camera. Not at all. I myself have a lot of experience with the DVX, also do use the XL1S a great deal, as well as other higher end full-sized cams. These are all merely tools. I would never suggest getting too attached to any one tool or paintbrush. Sometimes the client or budget dictates which camera you reach for. Your own unique needs and limitations will factor in too, of course. Pick the tool that you feel most comfortable with which has the feature set you need to create your vision. Be very happy that there are many options out there within your reach.

Best regards,

- don
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 07:35 PM   #205
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<<Seriously, I can guarantee you that when an XL1S replacement is announced, DV Info Net will have the biggest, most comprehensive amount of information, photos, discussions and everything else you'll ever want to know. So keep it tuned right here; there will be a *lot* going on at this place when the time comes.>>

Oh, I'm quite sure that's true. This site is great.

I just hope Canon does something soon. If not, I might just move on to the DVX as well. THe DVX is a great camera.
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 08:10 PM   #206
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I kinda wanted to stay away from the whole lens attatchment thing, but seriously, I dont care if you have a 10,000mm lens in front of the XL1.. the picture you get is not gonna be as good as a camera that isnt 10 years old is gonna get you. And you talk about sharpness? funny how a 60i camera gives "sharp" interlaced images isn't it. For you guys wanting a 1000mm+ lens on your camera all the power to you. Thats very cool, but would probally interest a fraction of a percentage of XL1 owners. I love to hear XL1 guys roll up and say "well I can change lens", and of then they admit they never have... in fact I betcha at least 80% of XL1 users have the stock lens and have never "switched"

As for the young comment, sure I may only be 30 and in this world that may be considered young. And yes I jump on new technology because it makes me more money. I said it already, but the XL1 is just fine for some people, just like 8mm is still some people favorite film stock. The XL1 isnt a bad camera, its just a very old camera with very old technology. And remember its a digital format and in the digital world things improve and change very fast.

But, hate for this to get all Mac. Vs. PCish. Lets all be friends :)
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 08:19 PM   #207
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It's what you do with 'em that counts. Around here we're more interested in the people rather than the gear. It's all good no matter which way you go. And it's only getting better! Not that long ago there was a time when you couldn't buy into tools of this caliber without closets full of money, and now just about anybody with a vision and determination can own one. We're living in an interesting age of self-empowerment and the ability to independantly generate creative media. Who cares if you drive a Ford or a Chevy.
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 08:24 PM   #208
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yes.. Love is in the air.

Debates get heated because there is Passion... to me thats not a bad thing. Thanks to Chris for allowing us to discuss and argue and laugh and cry. Well maybe not cry.
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 08:35 PM   #209
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"and as for the prototypes.. the DVX kinda came in as a surprise as well, and that balsa thing is definately a consumer based product.. its not a DVX replacement and never intended to be.


I only mentioned the balsa wood prototype as an example, didn't mean to slam panasonic or insinuate that it was a DVX replacement.

My point was just that seeing prototypes like that do us about as much good as XL2 rumors do now. There is no guarantee that the camera will come out when they say, or include the features that the prototype is said to have. Essentially, premature prototypes can be viewed as rumors started by the manufacturers themselves.
So, although it is hard to sit by and wait for Canon to give the official word, I do appreciate that once they give that official word it means something concrete.

That's all I meant.

-Luis

ps.
for the record, I shoot with a DVX myself.
Killer camera.
And in response to the comments about young people.... I don't
consider myself young, but if the new XL camera is better, I will
drop the DVX like a hot potato if it suits my projects.
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Old July 2nd, 2004, 08:38 PM   #210
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Hi Jarred,

Am still interested in the 2X tele adaptor for the DXV you mentioned. Who makes it? Price? What's your take on it?

By the way, I do use different lens configs with my XL1S and I know many others who do as well. Yes, I agree with you not everyone does, but those that do are mighty thankful that we can. No offense, cool?

I'm curious about that 2X for the DVX. Iv'e been in situations with a DVX before where I wish I had that at my disposal.

Hoping to hear back from you,

- don
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