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Old August 19th, 2004, 07:49 PM   #1
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Is it true XL2 chips HDV ready?

Is it true or just another rumor floating around. If it is true does that mean in a year or so Canon would offer an software upgrade. I'm not a tech guru so I'm not sure if this is possible or how it would work?

I read this on another site and haven't heard anymore about it.

Here is a little bit of insider info:
_
2 JVC 720p HDV 3-chip cameras will be introduced this Fall. The more expensive one may not be available until December. They will have excellent image quality, nearly on the same level as the Varicam. varicam records 960x720 pixels and is compressed 6.5:1. The JVC's will record 1280x720 pixels with 17:1 compression but a lot more efficient codec.
_
Sony will introduce their prosumer HDV camera early next year.
_
Canon XL2 CCD block is HDV ready. The pixel shift technology allows HD resolution. The new 20x zoom will be good enough for the new HDV camera.
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Old August 19th, 2004, 07:53 PM   #2
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I am almost 100% sure that it is not true. But you should post a link to support this rumor. Does it come from another forum? From a generally well informed person?
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Old August 19th, 2004, 08:09 PM   #3
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Please don't bother with the link; it's complete nonsense. Perhaps it's suitable for our "Area 51" rumors forum, but that's it. If there is an HDV version of the XL2 coming in the near future, it will most likely have a completely new CCD block -- and many other internal components -- and I seriously doubt it will be "software upgradeable."

The only hint of truth to the rumors above is that Sony may well have their 3CCD HDV piece ready by the first of the year.

Let's concentrate on facts and matters at hand, please... our Area 51 board is where all of the speculative ponderings go. Many thanks,
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Old August 19th, 2004, 08:18 PM   #4
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Gary McClurg wrote:
>>>>>>>>Is it true or just another rumor floating around.


Hi Gary,

If you are asking whether or not the actual CCD's used in the XL2 are capable of generating a 720P signal which could be encoded into a highly compressed HDV stream, the answer would be: It doesn't matter. Canon designed the XL2 to be a very high detail, high resolution Standard Definition DV camcorder (using miniDV tape). The output of the XL2 is indeed that - and remarkably noise-free and void of any blocking, banding or dithering.

>>>>>>>>If it is true does that mean in a year or so Canon would offer an software upgrade.

No. That is not part of the plan for the duration of the life cycle of the XL2. The XL2 is Standard Definition DV. I'm hoping that this is clear now.

>>>>>>>>I'm not a tech guru so I'm not sure if this is possible or how it would work?

Simple answer: Shoot with the XL2 and uprez your final color corrected edit in post.

Just curious, what types of projects have you completed so far?

- don
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Old August 19th, 2004, 08:27 PM   #5
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Gee Don because I ask a question you wonder what type of projects I've done.

Look I'm just trying to find out things. That's how you learn new things.

I didn't no I had to prove myelf to you unless I'm reading your post wrong.
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Old August 19th, 2004, 08:40 PM   #6
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Hi Gary,

You are indeed reading my post wrong and taking my answer the wrong way. I am sincerely curious about what type of projects you have completed or worked on so far. It's always nice to know what people are doing these days, especially people who are interested in the cameras I work with which includes Canon, Panasonic, JVC, Sony, etc...

To clarify, I was hoping to find out more about what types of cameras you have used and what types of CODECS and workflows you have utilized. It wasn't meant to be taken personally. This is what interests me - how people are working their cameras and the type of NLE's and post production hardware and software they are using to get their stories told and if they are pleased with the final result.

I'm also very curious if those who are so locked into HDV have actually taken the time to look at the quality of the format beyond just the frame size or resolution. One thing that fascinates me is the number of people who focus on whether a camera has 8-bit DSP with 256 color gradation detail or 12-bit DSP with 4096 color gradation detail but then turn around and completely not notice the high degree of dithering, banding, bleeding and noise prevalent in the some of the CODECS and recording formats available (not talking about DVCPro100 or the other professional HD formats which do not exhibit these anomalies). Sort of like someone taking a pill that makes them taller but neglects to heed the warnings of the side effects involved.

I'm just hoping that people will take the time to learn what dithering, banding, blocking, bleeding and noise are, what causes these image artifacts and the post production problems which ultimately arise when we are faced with too much of any of these anomalies.

In any case, it's always helpful to hear input from everyone and that input from everyone and anyone is always welcome here!

- don
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Old August 19th, 2004, 09:15 PM   #7
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Don, sorry about taking your reply wrong.

I've line produced or co-produced (for hire) four small features. One The Legend of Cyrin' Ryan should finally hit the US market on DVD I think next month. The others have been shown in Europe, Asia etc. But never the US.

On the last two films used the same DP in upstate New York who has his own Arri 35mm pacakge. I think he can also get the Panasonic SDX 900 now also.

The features were all cut on Avid Film Composers. I cut one of the movies and I guess also Cryin' Ryan. Since the director an actress thought the picture was locked but it wasn't I guess since we made over 500 changes after letting the editor go.

I've produced or directed a total of seven music videos all on Arri 16mm cameras. Actually I'll take that back one was with a Canon Scoopic (can't think how to spell it).

Would love to shoot Panavision but never been able to.

I have a Dual 2gig G-5 running FCP and other programs which I don't have time to play with.

I'm looking at getting either the XL2 or DVX to shoot my own feature on. My DP friend just brought the DVX for a video shoot so I can use it.

But I'm going to be moving to the sticks. Trying to buy a farm in Missouri but the people keep changing their minds about selling me a place.

So looking to get my own equipment and shoot my own film. Since it seems like I always have bad luck finding the money. I always get crazy answers like when you get the money we'll produce for you that sort of thing.

So I'm trying to find out as much as possible before I buy. Because I won't be able to run up to LA in an hour like I can now to get equipment.

And the real estate agent I'm working with used to do Christian videos. She thinks we can start doing commericals for the stations back there because the ones airing now she says suck.

Gary
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Old August 19th, 2004, 10:21 PM   #8
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Thanks for the detailed answer, Gary! Around here we're always curious about each other's backgrounds. I've known Don for several years now and he is always genuinely interested in the person at the other end of the conversation.

Scoopic is indeed the correct spelling for that 16mm film camera. I would love to have one and have been salivating over finding one for a very long time. It's just not your common Ebay item as you know. Thanks again,
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Old August 20th, 2004, 03:54 AM   #9
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Just to add a bit of Area 51 rumouring to this. The CCD chips
are larger (vertically) then what is being used (at this moment)
according to Canon's own claims.

See this XL2 watchdog page

You can see on the page above that the full resolution of the
chips is 960 x 720. So in theory you have the vertical
height for a form of HD. However the horizontal will only produce
this for a 4:3 frame which isn't true HD. You would need an
anamorphic lens to get the full 1280 x 720. Then ofcourse you
would also need a way to store it (at least HDV) which might
be possible if they put in powerful enough DSP chips.

So for this to work (assuming the hardware supports it) you would need:

1) new firmware

2) an anamorphic lens or adapter

So my guess would be: no, this won't happen. In theory it
could probably be done if the hardware is flexible enough.
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Old August 20th, 2004, 01:25 PM   #10
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How long before someone mods it to work? :)
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Old August 20th, 2004, 02:17 PM   #11
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its secret

May be I think In my view...Canon may be releasing along with sony after the release of sony hdv camcorder. Let me tell you why I read some reviews from the canon employees and managers , asked for the question... regarding HD version.. the answer from them is " ITS SECRET" . So also to be in competition definitely they have to release very soon. So also canon expressed that this is the last canon sd camera. They dont have to worry any more....since they definetly working on HD formats. So also the canon is the member of HD Constorium. May be why not!
Please NO fireworks....

vamshi
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Old August 20th, 2004, 03:26 PM   #12
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The varicam is HDPRO, not HDV. It compresses at 3.3 to 1 for 8bit 4:2:2 720p at 100mbs, the established spec btw. JVC was supposed to have something similar, but hasn't released anything yet. (spec set several years ago by both Panasonic and JVC)

I'm not really looking forward to HDV, we have the horsepower to handle 4:2:2 video, I wish they would create affordable cams to let us do so.
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Old August 20th, 2004, 03:55 PM   #13
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Don,
In your reply to Gary McClurg, you suggested that he "shoot on the XL-2 and "uprez" it in post." I'm not aware of anything like Photoshop's plug -in, Genuine Fractals, that's available for video.
Isn't it still "garbage in, garbage out"? How do you improve your resolution in post?
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Old August 20th, 2004, 08:10 PM   #14
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Steve,

You can use a program called S-Spline 2 it uprez's one frame at a time. I hear it does a good job but to go to HD it'd take a week of rendering if I remember right.

http://www.trulyphotomagic.com/short...er/content.php

Hopefully the link will work so you can just click on it.

Gary
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Old August 20th, 2004, 08:14 PM   #15
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That's a week of rendering for a feature project.
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