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Old April 3rd, 2017, 08:59 AM   #1
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SONY's answer to the GH5?

So we all know that the GH5 is taking the industry by storm. Its a camera that breaks just about every industry marketing rule that has ever existed. They have literally placed dozens of high end features that, simply put,...have absolutely no place being on a $2000 camera like this. (Traditionally speaking)

Panasonic does this because they have no immediate camera above the GH5 to worry about canabolizing.

SONY "does" have this worry. Its a very BIG worry for their lineup. If they produce a camera that matches the GH5, feature for feature, including 10bit 4k, they will create a big marketing problem for themselves.

So....anyone care to speculate as to what SONY's GH5 answer is going to be? Will Sony dare a 10bit camera??

Answer will be at NAB this month.....

CT
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Old April 3rd, 2017, 10:03 AM   #2
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5?

Not so bothered about 10bit. My sole reason to have ordered the GH5 is UHD 60P. Interchangeable lens and bigger sensor than my FDR-AX1. Also has a WiFi remote app that looks to do all I want too. Sony does not have a competitor for the GH5 or the Panasonic AG-UX180/HC-X1 for my specs. Hence my shift to Panasonic from Sony to get a better performing UHD 60P camera. For me the first in the Sony lineup to meet my needs is the FS7. Far too expensive for me. Sony logic seems strange. They were the first with 4K cameras with the FDR-AX1 and PXW Z100 and have just not maintained those specs with better sensors. Panasonic has just done that with the UX180/HC-X1 likely with Sony sensors !!!! I would have bought the FS5 if it had UHD 60P but for some reason it didn't !!!
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Old April 3rd, 2017, 08:05 PM   #3
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5?

Sony has rested on its laurels (AX100/X70) in the "prosumer" range for quite a while now. The sensors in those video cameras have been upgraded significantly in the RX camera lines (RX10M2/M3 and RX100M3/M4/M5), and yet they still haven't pushed the limits to release something with 4K/60p...

Of course a lot of R&D has gone into the Alpha E mount, but even there they are a bit behind the curve.

In a shrinking market, innovation is one of the few differentiating factors, and even Panasonic has announced downsizing/restructuring despite having the "hot product" of the moment.

It will be interesting to see the next moves!
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Old April 5th, 2017, 07:44 AM   #4
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5?

My Sony NAB 2017 prediction.

A7S-III = 8bit XAVC-S UHD, 20mp sensor, BSI illuminated with 6k readout. 10bit 30p HDMI output only! Will have truely incredable 4k detail and image quality.

FS5-II = 10bit XAVC-L and 10bit HDMI. If the A7S-III must have 10bit HDMI output, that totatly screws over the current FS5. So an "FS5-II" must exist to match its 10bit HDMI sibling. They still lock the FS5-II at 30p, 10bit to protect the FS7's 60p "specialness". (Maybe,...just maybe they give this "FS5-II" 60p HDMI only.)

So, i think Sony does 2 new models at NAB. ( possibly a new Z150 on steroids with electronic ND?)
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Old April 6th, 2017, 10:09 AM   #5
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5?

Cliff's technical predictions sound pretty good. But I wonder if for their still/hybrid cameras they'll hold off on announcements until after NAB. Probably not until the photo expos in late summer, but maybe sit quiet during NAB to not distract from whatever the video side is doing.

Or not...I guess we'll see soon...I'd love to see a small Sony camera with less CMOS roll or even a good global shutter.

Regardless, could be an interesting NAB and will be interesting to see what Sony (and perhaps Canon?) introduce in the coming months...
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Old April 6th, 2017, 01:26 PM   #6
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5? What's the question?

Most professional videographers do not shoot at 60p, though it certainly has its uses.

The real advance of the GH5 is 4:2:2 10bit internally. But that improvement is only visible if you start with a flat profile and heavily grade. Straight from the camera these do not matter much (and, yes, I have compared from the GH4 8bit 4:2:0 and 10bit 4:2:2 using an Atomos Shogun). I have not seen any ooc video that demonstrates 10bit makes a difference. So 10 versus 8 for many just sounds better, they get no real benefit.

With the GH5 you are still stuck with a relatively small sensor compared with APS-C and FF, which is what Sony is supplying. The DR and low-light performance (A7s ii) of these sensors is *visibly* superior to those of the GH5.

Sony has pushed using gamma profiles and grading to max DR, so they should go 10bit. My bet is they go 10bit before they offer UHD 60p, given who is really using their hardware. And they will upgrade the A7s ii with hybrid AF, which will be far superior to the AF of the GH5, which is still mediocre.
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Old April 6th, 2017, 02:01 PM   #7
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5?

I shoot 60i or 60P because I do not like the look of slow frame rates and all my output is to interlace DVD or Bluray. I like the smooth look of video rather than the film look. I know I am not the norm. I think that the current use of 30P is mainly because the cameras couldn't do 60P there is also the confusion that people make with NTSC being 29.97fps and think that is 30P.
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Old April 6th, 2017, 02:10 PM   #8
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5?

Ron you like interlace dvd better than progressive dvd?
going to test that right now from some 4k 30p from my ax100
Any little improvement is welcome
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Old April 6th, 2017, 04:15 PM   #9
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5? What's the question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rosenzweig View Post
Most professional videographers do not shoot at 60p, though it certainly has its uses.
How do you know? Is there a list somewhere of professional videographers and what framerate they use? :)
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Old April 6th, 2017, 05:38 PM   #10
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
How do you know? Is there a list somewhere of professional videographers and what framerate they use? :)
Prove me wrong! :)

More seriously, digital cameras are used by professionals to shoot for TV and movies, for example. For the latter, 24p is used; for TV drama, not 60p - 24p or 30p or 60i. Sports live will use 60i and 72060p, since those are US standards. 108060p is not a standard for any deliverable, let alone UHD 60p.

I am not arguing that therefore UHD 60p is not good and useful (for slow motion, for example) or that what cinema and TV professionals do is the standard of what anyone should do. Only that Sony will respond based on what they think there will be demand for, which is more likely (for TV and cinema) 10bit, not 60p, if they have to choose.

I know that professionals do more than TV and cinema, but they still have to deliver video that consumers can use, which will not be UHD 60p for a long while. But I certainly know that UHD 60p is desirable.
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Old April 6th, 2017, 06:35 PM   #11
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Dempsey View Post
Ron you like interlace dvd better than progressive dvd?
going to test that right now from some 4k 30p from my ax100
Any little improvement is welcome
All my DVD's are standard 60i ( 29.97fps for the purists ) and so are my Blurays. I like the smooth motion and really dislike the judder of the slower frame rates. Which is why I only use my AX100 and AX53 in 108060P. I sometimes use my FDR-AX1 in UHD 60P ( crop/pan /zoom ) use in the 60i project and edit in EDIUS .
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Old April 6th, 2017, 06:42 PM   #12
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5?

UHD 60P is perfect to edit into all sorts of outputs. I use it to edit in a 60i project as my main use. Smooth motion. Will also happily edit in a 1280x720P60 project etc or even a 30P project for the internet since 30P isn't a broadcast standard either. It can also be used to get slow motion in a 30P project. Seems to me a very sensible acquisition frame rate. If you shoot in 24P your stuck there with the judder and film look as your only output.
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Old April 7th, 2017, 01:59 AM   #13
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rosenzweig View Post
Prove me wrong! :)
That's easy, first if I check online for the definition of "a professional" it looks like I am a professional as well and I use 50P extensively in my paid work.
Second, if professionals don't use 50/60p why does Sony give the fs7 a 4K 50/60p option but not it's camera's in the lower priced region? Is that to please any amateur that buys their 8,5K camerabody?
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Old April 7th, 2017, 07:33 AM   #14
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
That's easy, first if I check online for the definition of "a professional" it looks like I am a professional as well and I use 50P extensively in my paid work.
Second, if professionals don't use 50/60p why does Sony give the fs7 a 4K 50/60p option but not it's camera's in the lower priced region? Is that to please any amateur that buys their 8,5K camerabody?
If you thought I meant no professionals use 50p or 60p then you got me. But that of course is not what I meant, as I am sure you knew.

The FS5 and the A7s ii do not have a UHD 60p option, and they are used by many professionals, the former almost exclusively. The number of professionals who have actually used the FS7 60p option I would guess (show me I am wrong) is far less than the number of professionals using the FS5 or those using the FS7 without using the option. And I have not even mentioned the professionals who use Canons with no 60p 4K.

Most of the early adopters of the GH5 who post on the internet about cameras are obsessed with 10bit advantages (and AF performance!), not with displaying how nice and smooth 60p is.

My "prediction" is based on what I think the demand is, not based on the usefulness of 60p. I hope I am wrong. And I find it puzzling that so many "professionals" shoot at 24p, other than if it's required for cinema. Maybe I hang around with the wrong professionals...

It would be great to have actual sales figures to know who is buying what. I do know that based on Amazon sales, the best selling camera of all cameras sold on Amazon, which includes every camera ever made, is a pink Fuji printer/camera. Yes, professionals don't buy on Amazon (meaning most professionals), but Sony and Panasonic have to be profitable, and if there is relatively little demand for a feature they will not invest in it. Perhaps the next A7x iii will be pink.
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Old April 7th, 2017, 09:56 AM   #15
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Re: SONY's answer to the GH5?

Quote:
The number of professionals who have actually used the FS7 60p option I would guess (show me I am wrong) is far less than the number of professionals using the FS5 or those using the FS7 without using the option.
You guess? How can I prove you wrong if you don't even know yourself? I was reacting to your claim that "Most professional videographers do not shoot at 60p" which is ofcourse just like your other statements a guess because you don't know, there is a reason why Sony includes more codec options, bitrates and frame rates in their higher end camera's because they are used by professionals who have specific needs, so that they can deliver in those formats if that's a client request or if they need it themselves for whatever reason.
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