24p SD camera $99.00 at DVinfo.net

Joseph Fagan · December 26th, 2005, 05:23 PM

Would you have a use for this camera?

1. Single SD "Progressive-scan" CMOS sensor (720 X 480)

2. Built-in 8gb memory module

3. Recording formats: DV and H.264 Quicktime and Windows AVI
Frame rates: 24P, 30P 60i

4. IO: 2 SD memory card slots, Firewire, USB2, Ext. Mic input. Composit Video in/out

5. MSRP $99.00

K. Forman · December 26th, 2005, 06:28 PM

At that price, you could almost send it over a cliff for an awsome crash scene. How tough is it? LOL!

Joseph Fagan · December 26th, 2005, 07:08 PM

My Plan is to design and build a prototype of the camera. Then find a manafacturer who can mass produce this camera at the "magic" price point.

I got the idea after reading about the one hundred dollar laptop that is being developed for developing nations. If they can build a $100.00 laptop why not a $100.00 24p camcorder for young filmmakers around the world.

There is really no reason, that a Standard Definition camera that shoots 24p should cost so much. I want to change that.

Adam Keen · December 26th, 2005, 08:40 PM

I like the idea, it just has some logistic problems. The $100 laptop had a lot of 'pre-orders' and is making a massive first run to maintain the price. So this would probably need a fair amount of money to back it.

On the design and features...lens, interface, memory, display, frame rate, power

lens: zoom? focusing? decent quality? how fast?

Interface: make it not retarded - don't bury frequently used in a menu, give the important things there own switches

Memory: compact flash I or II may be better with the large capacities, plug directly into a harddrive?

frame rate: it would be great to see a camera with higher than 30 fps, that would really give it an edge

Power: needs power from batteries, proprietary or standardized?

-Adam Keen

Jimi Colteryahn · December 26th, 2005, 11:18 PM

8GB!?! 8GB memory!?! 24p for $100?

Forget the camera...just sell 8GB memory capable of recording 24p for a $100 in CF, SD and P2 formats...
Thanks!
Jimi

Philip Williams · December 27th, 2005, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph Fagan

My Plan is to design and build a prototype of the camera. Then find a manafacturer who can mass produce this camera at the "magic" price point.

I got the idea after reading about the one hundred dollar laptop that is being developed for developing nations. If they can build a $100.00 laptop why not a $100.00 24p camcorder for young filmmakers around the world.

There is really no reason, that a Standard Definition camera that shoots 24p should cost so much. I want to change that.

Regarding the $100 laptop, it should be noted that it will not be anywhere near what most of us think of as a laptop. One of the big tech executives (one of the Intel COs I think) went so far as to call it a "device". It will use extremely cheap parts that are a commodity items now. From what I've read a typical PocketPC will destroy the "laptop" in most respects.

Anyway, I suspect that the CCD or CMOS sensor and the lens would be the most expensive components in your camcorder idea. There are already video devices not much more expensive than what you're proposing, but their video quality is dismal - at least when compared to a normal $400 DV camcorder. I can only assume that the quality of the lenses and sensors in those cameras is the weakest link. If you could mate an "ok" lens with an "ok" CMOS sensor that are capable of actually resolving 380 lines or better, you'd have a hit I think. Make the lens a 6X optical zoom and get it out the door for $200.

Hmm... I think I just redesigned the camera and doubled the price. I'm sick with a flu, have a giant headache and its 4:30am and I haven't slept yet. Maybe I'll just stick to more reading, less posting.

Joseph Fagan · December 27th, 2005, 06:22 PM

Maybe The Price should be $199.00 instead of $99.00. At least then maybe I could use better componets like a better CMOS or lense.

Does anyone else have more suggestions?

R.P. Cuenco · December 31st, 2005, 02:15 AM

as for the imager, some sort of high sensitivity sensor with low cost. ccd? manual zoom, at least 3.5x, and focus.

instead of a viewfinder AND lcd screen, simply make the lcd screen of higher resolution.

provide a compact flash interface (type II please), rather than the memory. just like how panny is doing it with the hvx200.

no computer connection (you can remove the compact flash and insert it into a card reader to remove the video)

only composite out and headphone out

simplify the user interface "apple-style" (im sure apple will love us for this)
six simple buttons: play/pause/rec, fast forward/right, rewind/left, + vol/up, - vol/left, mode (cycles through rec and play, hold down for more options)

no crazy settings
just plain ol' white balance, exposure, and frame rate (along with recording mode)

AA power supply?

hopefully throwing out the memory card in the package will make widen the budget for optics, encoding chips, and the sensor.

Joseph Fagan · January 3rd, 2006, 12:26 AM

I would love any camera experts to really tell me if this is a plausable and possible goal to make a $100.00 one chip camera that is 720 X 480, (true)24p, DV, H.264, solid state capture (no tape drive). Also to suggest any features I have not thought of.

Joseph

Dave Ferdinand · January 3rd, 2006, 03:09 AM

Joseph, it would be good to know if you are really up to the task of making this baby on your own? I never tried myself but I imagine it would be extremely hard to setup a prototype of even the most simple of digital cameras, much more would be to do so for a camcorder.

One thing that always intrigued me is how fast digital cameras evolved compared to camcorders. I mean, I own a basic 3.2 megapixel Kodak camera that has great image quality using a tiny sensor and even records video! Only 12 or 15 fps, granted, but how hard would it be to make an identical camera that would output 24 fps instead?

I know CMOS have limitation but I thinking if manufacturers tried really hard they could do it. Of course that would kill the sales of their $5k-$10k HD cameras, wouldn't it?

My camera costed 200 Canadian dollars by the way so I think your price tag is really optimistic. Most people would be happy to have 3 megapixel 24p for $500 or even more...

It's all business I tell you. The same goes for cars, we could have them using water already but somehow it doesn't seem 'possible'.... right.

Wayne Morellini · January 17th, 2006, 09:53 PM

Most of these sorts of projects are posted in the alternative imaging forum, you will find a number of knowledgeable people there (if they are still around).

But to answer your question, $199, might be better. The market puts up the price for better components. A quality 720*480 might cost a lot more than a quality 640*480 etc. The www.Ambarella.com is maybe one of the only codec chips that gives you true h264 at a cheap price (like $25 in quality) on a mass produced product you might be able to squeeze into $199 at that quantity. But you would want them to do closer to 9-16Mb/s than the industry standard 3Mb/s 640*480/30fps. If you drop h264, www.Elphel.com did an openware Ogg video codec design, which I think is at www.opencores.com. There was also a all in one sensor with compression engine a few months ago, but forget the name (but might be in the camcorderinfo blog) and Micron also does mobile phone sensors. Then there are a few other firms that do web-cam/mobile/security camera chips (but probably only a few cheap ones have good latitude and signal to noise ratio, high enough resolution and low enough in price to fit the budget).

If you want to try a different path, there was a firewire RAW web-cam for around $90 bucks that I saw at some firewire camera list, but uncompressed. You could maybe talk to these people and suggest a compressed version, with open software development kit, and the ability to record directly to firewire external drive without a computer in between. Then their are USB ones, like the compressed Logitech HD ones that have recently come out, that have better picture than most.

http://damien.douxchamps.net/ieee1394/cameras/index.php
http://www.mobilygen.com/
http://www.unibrain.com/1394_product..._camera_pc.htm
http://www.unibrain.com/1394_product.../fire-iapi.htm
http://www.unibrain.com/1394_products/ubcore/ubcore.htm

Wayne Morellini · January 17th, 2006, 10:29 PM

A bit of confusion about which of those Unibrains' will do RAW Bayer, looks like it comes in the board one at $119 (without lens):

http://www.1394store.com/eshop/produ...5&pf%5Fid=2059
http://www.unibrain.com/1394_product...ard_camera.htm
http://www.1394store.com/eshop/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=5

There is no 24/25fps mode, but there is some sort of software trigger mode available to the software development system.

Joseph Fagan · January 27th, 2006, 12:01 AM

Is there anyone out there willing to help out with this project. I read an article a while back in one of the HomeTheater mags about how you can (as an individual) start your own Plasma HDTV company.

The process was basically this: find several forign (chineese/korean)companies that build all the componets for said device and then find the company that can assemble all the parts and manafacture your product from existing parts.

The article sited several individuals who are doing this currently. I believe this could be done with cameras too. The only major challenge would be finding the investment capital to pull this off. However, I believe if the money could be found this project would be a serious money maker.

So I guess I need people who can find investors, help line up the companies that make all the componets and test the product.

Joseph

Laurence Maher · January 31st, 2006, 04:01 AM

I'd buy one.

December 26th, 2005, 05:23 PM	#1
Joseph Fagan New Boot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	24p SD camera $99.00 Would you have a use for this camera? 1. Single SD "Progressive-scan" CMOS sensor (720 X 480) 2. Built-in 8gb memory module 3. Recording formats: DV and H.264 Quicktime and Windows AVI Frame rates: 24P, 30P 60i 4. IO: 2 SD memory card slots, Firewire, USB2, Ext. Mic input. Composit Video in/out 5. MSRP $99.00

December 26th, 2005, 06:28 PM	#2
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	At that price, you could almost send it over a cliff for an awsome crash scene. How tough is it? LOL! __________________ www.SmokeWagonLeather.us

December 26th, 2005, 07:08 PM	#3
Joseph Fagan New Boot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	Would you buy This Camera? My Plan is to design and build a prototype of the camera. Then find a manafacturer who can mass produce this camera at the "magic" price point. I got the idea after reading about the one hundred dollar laptop that is being developed for developing nations. If they can build a $100.00 laptop why not a $100.00 24p camcorder for young filmmakers around the world. There is really no reason, that a Standard Definition camera that shoots 24p should cost so much. I want to change that.

December 26th, 2005, 11:18 PM	#5
Jimi Colteryahn Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rep. of Panama Posts: 34	hellooo! 8GB!?! 8GB memory!?! 24p for $100? Forget the camera...just sell 8GB memory capable of recording 24p for a $100 in CF, SD and P2 formats... Thanks! Jimi

December 27th, 2005, 06:22 PM	#7
Joseph Fagan New Boot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	Not a Bad Idea. Maybe The Price should be $199.00 instead of $99.00. At least then maybe I could use better componets like a better CMOS or lense. Does anyone else have more suggestions?

December 26th, 2005, 08:40 PM	#4
Adam Keen Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 49	I like the idea, it just has some logistic problems. The $100 laptop had a lot of 'pre-orders' and is making a massive first run to maintain the price. So this would probably need a fair amount of money to back it. On the design and features...lens, interface, memory, display, frame rate, power lens: zoom? focusing? decent quality? how fast? Interface: make it not retarded - don't bury frequently used in a menu, give the important things there own switches Memory: compact flash I or II may be better with the large capacities, plug directly into a harddrive? frame rate: it would be great to see a camera with higher than 30 fps, that would really give it an edge Power: needs power from batteries, proprietary or standardized? -Adam Keen

December 31st, 2005, 02:15 AM	#8
R.P. Cuenco Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 118	as for the imager, some sort of high sensitivity sensor with low cost. ccd? manual zoom, at least 3.5x, and focus. instead of a viewfinder AND lcd screen, simply make the lcd screen of higher resolution. provide a compact flash interface (type II please), rather than the memory. just like how panny is doing it with the hvx200. no computer connection (you can remove the compact flash and insert it into a card reader to remove the video) only composite out and headphone out simplify the user interface "apple-style" (im sure apple will love us for this) six simple buttons: play/pause/rec, fast forward/right, rewind/left, + vol/up, - vol/left, mode (cycles through rec and play, hold down for more options) no crazy settings just plain ol' white balance, exposure, and frame rate (along with recording mode) AA power supply? hopefully throwing out the memory card in the package will make widen the budget for optics, encoding chips, and the sensor.

January 3rd, 2006, 12:26 AM	#9
Joseph Fagan New Boot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	Let's get serious about this I would love any camera experts to really tell me if this is a plausable and possible goal to make a $100.00 one chip camera that is 720 X 480, (true)24p, DV, H.264, solid state capture (no tape drive). Also to suggest any features I have not thought of. Joseph

January 3rd, 2006, 03:09 AM	#10
Dave Ferdinand Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 359	Joseph, it would be good to know if you are really up to the task of making this baby on your own? I never tried myself but I imagine it would be extremely hard to setup a prototype of even the most simple of digital cameras, much more would be to do so for a camcorder. One thing that always intrigued me is how fast digital cameras evolved compared to camcorders. I mean, I own a basic 3.2 megapixel Kodak camera that has great image quality using a tiny sensor and even records video! Only 12 or 15 fps, granted, but how hard would it be to make an identical camera that would output 24 fps instead? I know CMOS have limitation but I thinking if manufacturers tried really hard they could do it. Of course that would kill the sales of their $5k-$10k HD cameras, wouldn't it? My camera costed 200 Canadian dollars by the way so I think your price tag is really optimistic. Most people would be happy to have 3 megapixel 24p for $500 or even more... It's all business I tell you. The same goes for cars, we could have them using water already but somehow it doesn't seem 'possible'.... right. __________________ Do or do not, there is no try.

January 17th, 2006, 09:53 PM	#11
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Most of these sorts of projects are posted in the alternative imaging forum, you will find a number of knowledgeable people there (if they are still around). But to answer your question, $199, might be better. The market puts up the price for better components. A quality 720480 might cost a lot more than a quality 640480 etc. The www.Ambarella.com is maybe one of the only codec chips that gives you true h264 at a cheap price (like $25 in quality) on a mass produced product you might be able to squeeze into $199 at that quantity. But you would want them to do closer to 9-16Mb/s than the industry standard 3Mb/s 640*480/30fps. If you drop h264, www.Elphel.com did an openware Ogg video codec design, which I think is at www.opencores.com. There was also a all in one sensor with compression engine a few months ago, but forget the name (but might be in the camcorderinfo blog) and Micron also does mobile phone sensors. Then there are a few other firms that do web-cam/mobile/security camera chips (but probably only a few cheap ones have good latitude and signal to noise ratio, high enough resolution and low enough in price to fit the budget). If you want to try a different path, there was a firewire RAW web-cam for around $90 bucks that I saw at some firewire camera list, but uncompressed. You could maybe talk to these people and suggest a compressed version, with open software development kit, and the ability to record directly to firewire external drive without a computer in between. Then their are USB ones, like the compressed Logitech HD ones that have recently come out, that have better picture than most. http://damien.douxchamps.net/ieee1394/cameras/index.php http://www.mobilygen.com/ http://www.unibrain.com/1394_product..._camera_pc.htm http://www.unibrain.com/1394_product.../fire-iapi.htm http://www.unibrain.com/1394_products/ubcore/ubcore.htm

January 17th, 2006, 10:29 PM	#12
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	A bit of confusion about which of those Unibrains' will do RAW Bayer, looks like it comes in the board one at $119 (without lens): http://www.1394store.com/eshop/produ...5&pf%5Fid=2059 http://www.unibrain.com/1394_product...ard_camera.htm http://www.1394store.com/eshop/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=5 There is no 24/25fps mode, but there is some sort of software trigger mode available to the software development system.

January 27th, 2006, 12:01 AM	#13
Joseph Fagan New Boot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	Anyone Intrested in Helping with this project? Is there anyone out there willing to help out with this project. I read an article a while back in one of the HomeTheater mags about how you can (as an individual) start your own Plasma HDTV company. The process was basically this: find several forign (chineese/korean)companies that build all the componets for said device and then find the company that can assemble all the parts and manafacture your product from existing parts. The article sited several individuals who are doing this currently. I believe this could be done with cameras too. The only major challenge would be finding the investment capital to pull this off. However, I believe if the money could be found this project would be a serious money maker. So I guess I need people who can find investors, help line up the companies that make all the componets and test the product. Joseph

January 31st, 2006, 04:01 AM	#14
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	I'd buy one.