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Atomos Ninja / Samurai / Shogun
HD-SDI field recorders supporting a variety of codecs.


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Old May 23rd, 2011, 05:52 PM   #31
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Re: Samurai $1495

I agree with everything Andrew just said. The nanoFlash really is a great recorder.

Something I have seen quite often lately is so many people thinking 10bit is the holy grail for acquisition. Haven't most of us been getting by just fine with 8bit acquisition for many years? Also, how many here really push their images during grading so much that:
1) 8bit breaks
2) current NLEs with 32 bpc floating point cannot handle it

I have pushed 35Mb XDCAM EX in Premiere Pro and exported with 32bpc processing with amazing results. In addition, I normally grade in 8bit in Premiere and After Effects which handles most just fine. For heavier grading, I either remove noise and export to Cineform and import into AE or just use a 32bpc comp in AE.

Hey Nate, can you answer this please: with 10bit material, should you use a 10bit monitor or is an 8bit monitor good enough? Thanks.
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 06:09 PM   #32
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Re: Samurai $1495

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Kalle View Post
Also, how many here really push their images during grading so much that:
1) 8bit breaks
2) current NLEs with 32 bpc floating point cannot handle it
Me. But since I've been such a nutjob on the subject, you knew I was going to say so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Kalle View Post
I have pushed 35Mb XDCAM EX in Premiere Pro and exported with 32bpc processing with amazing results. In addition, I normally grade in 8bit in Premiere and After Effects which handles most just fine. For heavier grading, I either remove noise and export to Cineform and import into AE or just use a 32bpc comp in AE.

Hey Nate, can you answer this please: with 10bit material, should you use a 10bit monitor or is an 8bit monitor good enough? Thanks.
It's a matter of where you're coming from, really. It wasn't until I started shooting Red 3 years ago that I finally understood some of what seems like snobbery with formats. Red is linear 12 bit...those images are very forgiving in post with exposure corrections, and what you can do with it later. It was really a "wow" moment...and with time, I realized these are the same benefits you get when shooting film and high end video formats like HDCAM SR. 10 bit DPXs have been around for some time, and now I realize for good reason. Now it's a matter of a few hundred bucks extra on a $14K camera to indulge in.

Whatever camera I use going forward, it's going to have that same flexibility. I've had it, I love it, not going back. If you've been shooting EX1 or 3, and haven't done a fair amount of work on the Red, then you just simply (not a judgement) don't know what you're missing.

As to the monitoring question, I think only colorists need 10 bit monitors. Deeper bit depth to me a capture/post manipulation thing, not a end user or even editor thing. It's not like a 10 bit monitor is going to rock your world...it's just going to get rid of posterization (banding) in subtle gradients.
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 09:23 PM   #33
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Re: Samurai $1495

Andrew,

Thanks for the detail analysis. I've been a fan of the Nano for all the reasons you stated. The math improvements in 10 bits is certainly compelling and I'll shoot some over and underexposure tests with the standard Ki Pro (hopefully not running into the problem Philipp Eierund did with his 8 bit vs.10bit posting) and see what real world grading with a FilmMaster tells me regarding breakdown points and color shifts on 8 vs.10, hopefully worth posting.
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Old May 24th, 2011, 03:54 AM   #34
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Re: Samurai $1495

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Weaver View Post
Me. But since I've been such a nutjob on the subject, you knew I was going to say so.



It's a matter of where you're coming from, really. It wasn't until I started shooting Red 3 years ago that I finally understood some of what seems like snobbery with formats. Red is linear 12 bit...those images are very forgiving in post with exposure corrections, and what you can do with it later. It was really a "wow" moment...and with time, I realized these are the same benefits you get when shooting film and high end video formats like HDCAM SR. 10 bit DPXs have been around for some time, and now I realize for good reason. Now it's a matter of a few hundred bucks extra on a $14K camera to indulge in.

Whatever camera I use going forward, it's going to have that same flexibility. I've had it, I love it, not going back. If you've been shooting EX1 or 3, and haven't done a fair amount of work on the Red, then you just simply (not a judgement) don't know what you're missing.

As to the monitoring question, I think only colorists need 10 bit monitors. Deeper bit depth to me a capture/post manipulation thing, not a end user or even editor thing. It's not like a 10 bit monitor is going to rock your world...it's just going to get rid of posterization (banding) in subtle gradients.
couldn't have said it better myself. The people who are "fine" with 8bit just dont realize what they are missing because their requirements dont need it. But when you're clients only demand the very best, 10bit is minimum for whats needed. The color information for post manipulation is paramount.
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Old May 24th, 2011, 11:24 AM   #35
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Re: Samurai $1495

Just to be clear I am not stating people should be going 8-bit. I am stating that the decision to go with a 10 bit or better recorder should be based on need. Complicating matters is the state of the recorder market is very much in transition. The prudent thing to do would be to rent. A camera operator could end up saving themselves thousands of dollars by waiting a few months in order to make an informed decision based on field use and get a recorder that makes sense for their client base and workflow requirements. People who work largely on ENG/EFP/corporate jobs have an entirely different workflow than people working on drama or commercial work.

I don't question Nate's statement as I know he is right. Just issuing caution so people don't have buyer's remorse 8 weeks down the road.
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Old May 24th, 2011, 12:04 PM   #36
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Re: Samurai $1495

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Weaver View Post
Me. But since I've been such a nutjob on the subject, you knew I was going to say so.



It's a matter of where you're coming from, really. It wasn't until I started shooting Red 3 years ago that I finally understood some of what seems like snobbery with formats. Red is linear 12 bit...those images are very forgiving in post with exposure corrections, and what you can do with it later. It was really a "wow" moment...and with time, I realized these are the same benefits you get when shooting film and high end video formats like HDCAM SR. 10 bit DPXs have been around for some time, and now I realize for good reason. Now it's a matter of a few hundred bucks extra on a $14K camera to indulge in.

Whatever camera I use going forward, it's going to have that same flexibility. I've had it, I love it, not going back. If you've been shooting EX1 or 3, and haven't done a fair amount of work on the Red, then you just simply (not a judgement) don't know what you're missing.

As to the monitoring question, I think only colorists need 10 bit monitors. Deeper bit depth to me a capture/post manipulation thing, not a end user or even editor thing. It's not like a 10 bit monitor is going to rock your world...it's just going to get rid of posterization (banding) in subtle gradients.
Would you agree that the raw nature of R3D has the most impact on ability to manipulate in post?

Look at your last statement about 'colorists need 10bit monitors" - grading/CC is exactly why people say they 'need' or 'want' 10bit acquisition. For editing, 8bit vs 10bit doesn't make much of a difference because all major NLEs can process at 32bpc.
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Old May 24th, 2011, 12:29 PM   #37
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Re: Samurai $1495

excellent video that addresses the fan issue with the Sound Devices PIX 240 recorder and if Sound Devices is ready to transition into video. YouTube - ‪Sound Devices at NAB 2011 : PIX 240‬‏
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Old May 24th, 2011, 03:02 PM   #38
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Re: Samurai $1495

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Originally Posted by Steve Kalle View Post
Would you agree that the raw nature of R3D has the most impact on ability to manipulate in post?
It's the 12 bit nature of RAW that allows it. BTW, Red's definition of raw and DSLR manus definition of raw is a bit different, so I guess I want to point that out if we are talking about what it's advantages/disadvantages are.

The other properties of Red raw (compression) work against that flexibility. The post-debayering aspect is probably a wash...helps sometimes, hinders other times. To get the best 'flexibility' out of R3Ds, you have to do a full debayer (as opposed to half or quarter), and that's either expensive time-wise or $$-wise, take your pick.
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Old May 26th, 2011, 05:07 PM   #39
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Re: Samurai $1495

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Originally Posted by Chris Medico View Post
I can verify that recording the 5d live view in standby is not a viable option. Regardless of what their website says.
We confirm that none of the Canon cameras we've tried give a clean HDMI output.

Virtually every "traditional" video camera we've tried, does.

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