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Old March 19th, 2008, 04:57 PM   #1
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I was all set to buy the HV30, but now....

All the buzz is about the HF10, & Sony's SR11/12. I haven't owned a camcorder for 6 or 7 years and want to get back into filming family events, trips, and get a little creative from time to time. Tape or no tape doesn't matter, 24 & 30p does. I want them. Also want the cine mode, & mic input jacks, which they all have. Bottom line is the best image quality. It is unlikely I will ever make an indie film, but would like to know the image quality is there if I were to. So, if any of you have hands on experience with these machines, please let me know what you thought of the videos they produce. Thanks.....
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Old March 19th, 2008, 10:12 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by John Minor View Post
All the buzz is about the HF10, & Sony's SR11/12. I haven't owned a camcorder for 6 or 7 years and want to get back into filming family events, trips, and get a little creative from time to time. Tape or no tape doesn't matter, 24 & 30p does. I want them. Also want the cine mode, & mic input jacks, which they all have. Bottom line is the best image quality. It is unlikely I will ever make an indie film, but would like to know the image quality is there if I were to. So, if any of you have hands on experience with these machines, please let me know what you thought of the videos they produce. Thanks.....
If you are fine with tape based than go for new Canon HV30, I have Canon HV 20 & JVC GZHD7!

See my uploaded Canon HV20 video here http://www.vimeo.com/771305

You can see some other videos also!

You can still buy old Canon HV20 also, it is available now very reasonable price, but if I would be in your position I would go for latest means Canon HV30.

Kaushik
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Old March 20th, 2008, 12:05 AM   #3
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I bought the Sony SR12. I was in the same position as you. I had a Sony DVD 403 that I liked very much as far as ease of use and fast transfer from camera to computer to edit with Sony Vegas.

I really considered the HV20 and HV30 and HG10 all by Canon as you likely know. I liked the images I watched of the SR12 on the internet and figured I would give it a try. I did not really want to go with tape.

Consider this: Its not a good Idea to use tape over again as your video can suffer drop outs. You can record over and over on tape if the video you are shooting is for fun or practice. But If you are shooting a keeper then get a new tape.

I know the HV20 and 30 are very good but I really think the SR12 and SR11 from sony could be just the camera for those who dont want tape and want a great picture. I cannot say that the SR12 is better then the HV20 or 30 or even if they are a match with their own little faults because I have not owned the Canons.

I can say that the video I see on VIMEO and other sites is all equal to me.

Now the cannon HG10 has a good following as well but there is some issue with video length or file size and additional files being created that cause video stream problems. (check it out)

But the HG10 gets great video as well and is at a low price these days.


I thought I would share my experience with you.

Here is a video I took with the SR12 for you to check out.
http://www.vimeo.com/799326
All of my videos are with the SR12 by the way.


I would say the SR12 is worth a look for yourself before make a choice.

I personnaly found the feel and built quality of the SR12 to blow the HV30 away. But how the SR12 works out in the long run is just a waiting game
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Old March 20th, 2008, 01:55 AM   #4
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I bought the Sony SR12. I was in the same position as you. I had a Sony DVD 403 that I liked very much as far as ease of use and fast transfer from camera to computer to edit with Sony Vegas.

I really considered the HV20 and HV30 and HG10 all by Canon as you likely know. I liked the images I watched of the SR12 on the internet and figured I would give it a try. I did not really want to go with tape.

Consider this: Its not a good Idea to use tape over again as your video can suffer drop outs. You can record over and over on tape if the video you are shooting is for fun or practice. But If you are shooting a keeper then get a new tape.

I know the HV20 and 30 are very good but I really think the SR12 and SR11 from sony could be just the camera for those who dont want tape and want a great picture. I cannot say that the SR12 is better then the HV20 or 30 or even if they are a match with their own little faults because I have not owned the Canons.

I can say that the video I see on VIMEO and other sites is all equal to me.

Now the cannon HG10 has a good following as well but there is some issue with video length or file size and additional files being created that cause video stream problems. (check it out)

But the HG10 gets great video as well and is at a low price these days.


I thought I would share my experience with you.

Here is a video I took with the SR12 for you to check out.
http://www.vimeo.com/799326
All of my videos are with the SR12 by the way.


I would say the SR12 is worth a look for yourself before make a choice.

I personnaly found the feel and built quality of the SR12 to blow the HV30 away. But how the SR12 works out in the long run is just a waiting game
Indeed, I agree that build quality seems to be better than Canon HV20, I have not seen so far Canon HV30, but I guess HV20 & HV30 are same made material just only colour difference is there!

As far as concern video quality, Canon HV20/ HV30 would be superior! I have Canon HV20 as well as I have JVC GZHD7!

Well, so far I have not seen any stunning videos from Sony SR12, but I have seen stunning videos of Canon HV20! Maybe we will able to see in near future some videos from Sony SR12 than we will be in position to compare both!

Kaushik
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Old March 20th, 2008, 07:21 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Kaushik Parmar View Post
Indeed, I agree that build quality seems to be better than Canon HV20, I have not seen so far Canon HV30, but I guess HV20 & HV30 are same made material just only colour difference is there!

As far as concern video quality, Canon HV20/ HV30 would be superior! I have Canon HV20 as well as I have JVC GZHD7!

Well, so far I have not seen any stunning videos from Sony SR12, but I have seen stunning videos of Canon HV20! Maybe we will able to see in near future some videos from Sony SR12 than we will be in position to compare both!

Kaushik
Yes Kaushik, the HV20 does produce stunning videos, I've had one since it came out. However, like Paul, I too bought the SR12 and did quite a bit of A/B testing with both the HV20 and SR12. I've looked at the footage and have showed it to a videophile friend of mine (he had no idea which footage I was showing him, so it was a kind of 'blind A/B' testing for him). We both agreed the SR12 picture quality was a bit better than the HV20. I also had a friend in Canada look at a few clips I sent him on his 100" Zenith RP HDTV with 9" guns. He's modified what was a 64" Zenith with special optics and screen to produce a 100" picture. He's got a Canon HV10 and thoughts the clips were every bit as good as his HV10.

But that's just the opinion of three people who are very attuned to video, others may differ. However the fact is that the SR12 does indeed take stunning video. Whether you think it's a bit better or not, I sincerely doubt that most people would even be able to tell the difference between it and the Canons. My wife who fits in to the 'casual' observer category, has a hard time telling which is which. ;)

So in reality what it boils down to is the best of the Canons and the best of the Sonys are so good, that they produce a picture that's very close in quality and stunning to look at. So it boils down to features and formats. Once you've lived with AVCHD and its instant access, non-linear approach to viewing, it's very hard to go back to tape. It really is. The joy of instantly picking any clip you've got and viewing it immediately or seeing a thumbnail on your screen of every clip you've taken...well it kind of makes tape look old...very old.

Yes for editing it's still problematic and yes you do need a high-end computer to do it well, but this will eventually sort out too.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 10:37 AM   #6
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Yes Kaushik, the HV20 does produce stunning videos, I've had one since it came out. However, like Paul, I too bought the SR12 and did quite a bit of A/B testing with both the HV20 and SR12. I've looked at the footage and have showed it to a videophile friend of mine (he had no idea which footage I was showing him, so it was a kind of 'blind A/B' testing for him). We both agreed the SR12 picture quality was a bit better than the HV20. I also had a friend in Canada look at a few clips I sent him on his 100" Zenith RP HDTV with 9" guns. He's modified what was a 64" Zenith with special optics and screen to produce a 100" picture. He's got a Canon HV10 and thoughts the clips were every bit as good as his HV10.

But that's just the opinion of three people who are very attuned to video, others may differ. However the fact is that the SR12 does indeed take stunning video. Whether you think it's a bit better or not, I sincerely doubt that most people would even be able to tell the difference between it and the Canons. My wife who fits in to the 'casual' observer category, has a hard time telling which is which. ;)

So in reality what it boils down to is the best of the Canons and the best of the Sonys are so good, that they produce a picture that's very close in quality and stunning to look at. So it boils down to features and formats. Once you've lived with AVCHD and its instant access, non-linear approach to viewing, it's very hard to go back to tape. It really is. The joy of instantly picking any clip you've got and viewing it immediately or seeing a thumbnail on your screen of every clip you've taken...well it kind of makes tape look old...very old.

Yes for editing it's still problematic and yes you do need a high-end computer to do it well, but this will eventually sort out too.
Ken Rose,

I am looking forward to see stunning video like Canon HV20 & JVC GZHD7 from Sony SR12! By seeing it pictures of SR12, it seems to me build quality is better than Canon HV20, but I am not sure it would be as good as JVC GZHD7.

Donít you think you should go for new Canon HF10? I was reading review of it, and it seems to me if you want to buy AVCHD camera than that would have been good choice! Anyway, as far as you are very much happy with Sony SR12 than you are fine, can you please upload some of your videos on vimeo?

Thanks,
Kaushik
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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:13 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Kaushik Parmar View Post
Indeed, I agree that build quality seems to be better than Canon HV20, I have not seen so far Canon HV30, but I guess HV20 & HV30 are same made material just only colour difference is there!

As far as concern video quality, Canon HV20/ HV30 would be superior! I have Canon HV20 as well as I have JVC GZHD7!

Well, so far I have not seen any stunning videos from Sony SR12, but I have seen stunning videos of Canon HV20! Maybe we will able to see in near future some videos from Sony SR12 than we will be in position to compare both!

Kaushik
Ok but you do not own the SR series from sony??? NO. S o how can you say "would be superior"

I only stated my opinion about bulid quality because I held both in my hand side by side. I have neither had the video to work with side by side nor have I had a HD DVD produced from each to watch on a high quality TV.

So I would not say that the SR12 would be superior unless I had the goods to back it up.

I would have no problem with anyone finding a image quality fault with the Sony SR series that was generally accepted as a fault. If I even found a short comming I would quickly make it known. This would only serve the consumers and make Sony act.

But what has come out is squabbling about the Sony SR series (really the SR11 & 12) from variuos critics on the forums. I suspect that (again I suspect its not fact) the people who have issue are not a fan of AVCHD and dont have the PC power to really work it.

Now if you do a search on the different video sharing sites of HV20 you will find alot of posted videos. With alot of those videos effects and filters have been applied. So If your goal is to be creative with the camera, I would say that the differences between the Sony and Canon cameras ia a moot point.

But the little issues that have been brought up about the SR series have in fact been found to be operator error and not the camera. I think there is alot of good info on these forums; however, one needs to take it all in and really listen.

The issue with the HG10 and file size larger than 2g (I think thas the correct size) is a real issue others have found the same issue.

So the evolution of the HG10 file size went from Hypothesis (individuals finding problem) to Theroy (everone's Hypothesis being grouped and supported with testing) to now LAW (the problem is real can be explained)


Now there no absolute proof in science. Even a LAW can be found to be wrong but a LAW is a LAW because it has NOT been disproven as a theory)


SO why say all of this?? The canon HV20 has proven itself and current THEORY says so. Its not LAW yet it hasent been around long enough.

But ther SR12 is new discovery and the hypothesis have not become theory.


So to say "would be superior" is a blind statment and not supported by any personal insight.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 01:19 PM   #8
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Thanks for the replies so far folks. I can see you have a passion for video. Another question for those with the SR11/12's, how is the sound quality, and does the audio zoom actually work? From what I;ve been reading in other posts onthis site and others, the video quality is so close between the HV30 & SR11/12 that it's almost a moot point, which then comes down to the features and options each camera offers. It would be easier if one stood head and shoulders above the others.......
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Old March 20th, 2008, 01:46 PM   #9
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The issue with the HG10 and file size larger than 2g (I think thas the correct size) is a real issue others have found the same issue.

So the evolution of the HG10 file size went from Hypothesis (individuals finding problem) to Theroy (everone's Hypothesis being grouped and supported with testing) to now LAW (the problem is real can be explained).
LOL! Well out of the blue I received a phone message from Roger in Canon support who wants to discuss this issue with me, so I will tack on the relevant proceedings of this conversation to the 2GB thread...
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Old March 20th, 2008, 02:08 PM   #10
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Don't forget price too

It may not be the deciding factor, but I thought it bears mentioning. Right now there is a rather hefty $400-$500 price difference between the HV20 and the SR11. The SR11/12 may have a slight edge in video quality and sound, and of course there's the whole tape vs. non-linear media issue, but the HV20 is certainly a good value at the moment.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 02:12 PM   #11
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Thanks for the replies so far folks. I can see you have a passion for video. Another question for those with the SR11/12's, how is the sound quality, and does the audio zoom actually work? From what I;ve been reading in other posts onthis site and others, the video quality is so close between the HV30 & SR11/12 that it's almost a moot point, which then comes down to the features and options each camera offers. It would be easier if one stood head and shoulders above the others.......
I have the SR11 and tried the zoom option when my son was riding his tricycle 100 yards away. Wasn't impressed. Haven't tried it in a noisy room yet. The 5.1 surround sound doesn't have tremendous separation, but it does work and give a different feel to the video. The still pictures are actually quite usable, too (especially outdoors).

I haven't seen you mention the new canon hf10/100, but I think you ought to consider it too. The new canon lacks the 5.1 sound/zoom feature, and the slo-mo capture (3 seconds slowed to 12 seconds w/ a lower resolution) of the Sony, but has 24p and 30p, along with a little better manual control over the camera.

By the way, I'm really enjoying my Sony SR11.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 02:12 PM   #12
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Ok but you do not own the SR series from sony??? NO. S o how can you say "would be superior"

I only stated my opinion about bulid quality because I held both in my hand side by side. I have neither had the video to work with side by side nor have I had a HD DVD produced from each to watch on a high quality TV.

So I would not say that the SR12 would be superior unless I had the goods to back it up.

I would have no problem with anyone finding a image quality fault with the Sony SR series that was generally accepted as a fault. If I even found a short comming I would quickly make it known. This would only serve the consumers and make Sony act.

But what has come out is squabbling about the Sony SR series (really the SR11 & 12) from variuos critics on the forums. I suspect that (again I suspect its not fact) the people who have issue are not a fan of AVCHD and dont have the PC power to really work it.

Now if you do a search on the different video sharing sites of HV20 you will find alot of posted videos. With alot of those videos effects and filters have been applied. So If your goal is to be creative with the camera, I would say that the differences between the Sony and Canon cameras ia a moot point.

But the little issues that have been brought up about the SR series have in fact been found to be operator error and not the camera. I think there is alot of good info on these forums; however, one needs to take it all in and really listen.

The issue with the HG10 and file size larger than 2g (I think thas the correct size) is a real issue others have found the same issue.

So the evolution of the HG10 file size went from Hypothesis (individuals finding problem) to Theroy (everone's Hypothesis being grouped and supported with testing) to now LAW (the problem is real can be explained)


Now there no absolute proof in science. Even a LAW can be found to be wrong but a LAW is a LAW because it has NOT been disproven as a theory)


SO why say all of this?? The canon HV20 has proven itself and current THEORY says so. Its not LAW yet it hasent been around long enough.

But ther SR12 is new discovery and the hypothesis have not become theory.


So to say "would be superior" is a blind statment and not supported by any personal insight.
I am afraid you took it very much seriously, I donít own SR12 that is why I use word "would be" means it maybe superior or maybe not! I never told Canon HV20 is superior, how can I tell till I have not compare both!

I also trust Sony Company, they have good products. I am looking forward to see stunning videos from Sony SR12; I would appreciate if you can post them!

Kaushik
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Old March 20th, 2008, 02:40 PM   #13
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It may not be the deciding factor, but I thought it bears mentioning. Right now there is a rather hefty $400-$500 price difference between the HV20 and the SR11. The SR11/12 may have a slight edge in video quality and sound, and of course there's the whole tape vs. non-linear media issue, but the HV20 is certainly a good value at the moment.

Great point! I really was set to get the HG10. I could pick it up for about $700 a week ago. This would have left $$$ in my budget fro a lens and a Sony Vegas upgrade to the PRO version.

But it was the file size issue that gave me concern in the end. But it was the features that helped as well. I really wanted a manual focus knob. But I liked the standard shoe on the HG10. I liked the larger lcd on the SR12 but figured the HG10 would be good enough.


In the end I got the SR12 for $1099 which is about $400 more than the HV20 and HG10 and about $100 more than the HV30.


So I didn't want tape so the HV30 is out as well as the HV20. So it left me with the Hg10 and SR. The latest infor about the file size made ma choice for me.

Now I could have waited for the canon HF10 and HF100 to ship to test them. But they lost the focus knob and went with a proprietary hot shoe...DUH no better than the Sony attitude in that respect.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 02:41 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Kaushik Parmar View Post
Ken Rose,

I am looking forward to see stunning video like Canon HV20 & JVC GZHD7 from Sony SR12! By seeing it pictures of SR12, it seems to me build quality is better than Canon HV20, but I am not sure it would be as good as JVC GZHD7.

Donít you think you should go for new Canon HF10? I was reading review of it, and it seems to me if you want to buy AVCHD camera than that would have been good choice! Anyway, as far as you are very much happy with Sony SR12 than you are fine, can you please upload some of your videos on vimeo?

Thanks,
Kaushik
Kaushik, for me to switch to the HF10, it would have to demonstrate visibly superior picture quality. From the clips I've downloaded, it doesn't. I also have to factor in the loss of a viewfinder, 5.1 surround sound, larger LCD, much larger internal storage space and what is to my eyes the lowest noise levels I've encoutered with a consumer HD cam in the SR12.

I've uploaded SR12 videos that you can download here. This is a far better way to see the quality than the highly compressed Vimeo website. Frankly I can't tell the quality of anything on that site due to the compression:

Sunny day shot:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GOHXJM70

Here's an early morning, hazy day shot in N.Y.C.:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=00JC43E9
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Old March 20th, 2008, 02:45 PM   #15
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I have the SR11 and tried the zoom option when my son was riding his tricycle 100 yards away. Wasn't impressed. Haven't tried it in a noisy room yet. The 5.1 surround sound doesn't have tremendous separation, but it does work and give a different feel to the video. The still pictures are actually quite usable, too (especially outdoors).

I haven't seen you mention the new canon hf10/100, but I think you ought to consider it too. The new canon lacks the 5.1 sound/zoom feature, and the slo-mo capture (3 seconds slowed to 12 seconds w/ a lower resolution) of the Sony, but has 24p and 30p, along with a little better manual control over the camera.

By the way, I'm really enjoying my Sony SR11.
The new canon HF has better manual control.... Am I wrong but did they not include a manual focus knob? Or do you mean items like gain and shutter then if they kept the same features as the HV series then yes more control.


The SR gives the basic control over your shots. I wish I had a little more control of the gain and shutter. Also the HV and HG from canon have that photo button trick to get total contrl over gain and shutter for low light shots.
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