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AVCHD Format Discussion
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Old April 8th, 2008, 04:45 PM   #61
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Mario, motion of both cams is absolutely fluid, as you'd expect with 60i video. However, the 24p and 30p modes of the Canon will result in less smooth motion as opposed to 60i. That's just the nature of those frame rates. There will be some stutter with rapdily moving objects.

The SR series Sonys and HF series Canons are very different cameras no matter what these reviews tell you. They have very different color renditions and very different gammas. They both do different things and have different capabilities. If you feel having a viewfinder is important, than the Sony is the way to go since the Canon doesn't have one. If you like 30p or 24p, the Canon is the way to go. For me the 'p' modes are not important because of the motion issues I perceive.

If you're critical regarding color accuracy, I suggest you look at the Sony. I know a couple of people beside myself that have seen both camera's handling of color and the agreement was the Sony was better in this regard.

Best bet, try shooting with both on memory media and playing it back at home.
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Old April 8th, 2008, 04:45 PM   #62
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Mario. Allow me to offer you some advice. You're showing the symptoms of Analysis Paralysis. The cure: avoid online "reviews." Start shooting video.

You need a camcorder -- buy the one that *feels best in your hands.* Use it. If you don't like it, return it to the store for a refund. If you have to pay a restocking fee, that is a small charge for a temporary rental.

This site is the only one you need. Be sure to tell us how it goes. But by all means, stop reading and start shooting video. You can't go wrong with any of the camcorders that are available today. Get one in your hands and shoot some video -- then tell us about your experience.

There are no "wrong" camcorder choices unless you do too much reading and not enough in-store touch & try. Hope this helps,
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Old April 8th, 2008, 07:05 PM   #63
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"Analysis paralysis"
Hilarious and right on the nose. I guess I will buy some cams and do some testing. For me its between the HV30 and the the SR 11 because the videos I have seen of the HF100 had some of the aberations I have heard about. Plus the manual controls are not very ergonomic. The view finder, though I don't know how much I will use it, is a nice option to have. I will report back with my findings. Thanks for your input.
Before I go, do you any sources for uncompressed clips of video shot with any of these cameras, just in case I can't buy or find all of these in one place?

Let me know.

Kind Regards,
Mario
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Old April 8th, 2008, 08:38 PM   #64
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Mario you are choosing between a tape based camcorder and a HDD camcorder. In one case you will have to carry around tapes and make sure you log and look after them. You won't be able to skip through to any point on a tape to see a particular clip etc BUT it is easier to edit HDV than AVCHD. For AVCHD you will have playback of every clip on the HDD at your finger tips at any time for playback, in the case of the SR11 over 7 hours at 1920x1080 or almost twice that at standard 1440x1080( double these numbers for the SR12). Try finding something to show someone on one of the 7 to 14 tapes you have shot in HDV!!! IF you are shooting an event which will be edited and transfered to DVD then tape is OK. For family video I think HDD cams in AVCHD are much better from a convenience point of view. That is why I have a SR11 for family stuff and a FX1 for my hobby projects. To be honest in good light I can't tell the difference in quality and it might even go to the SR11!!!! IT also takes good stills.

Ron Evans
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Old April 8th, 2008, 08:49 PM   #65
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The quality of the stills Ron is really amazing when shown on a large screen 1080p HDTV. The stills are just razor sharp and actually sharper than any freeze frame from any HD cam I've ever owned, including my old FX1 or FX7. The look and details of those SR12 stills on an HDTV remind me of what our next step up in HD camcorders might look like...they're that good.

But I agree with you regarding the look of the SR11/12 vs the FX1, in good light I might give the edge to the SR12 even though I don't have the FX1 anymore. I think my old FX7 might have appeared a tad sharper, but it also had more noise and I think some of that sharpness was 'apparent' sharpness as the result of greater in-camera sharpening.
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Old April 8th, 2008, 09:20 PM   #66
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Yes I agree about the stills was most impressed the day I got my SR11. This is a post of those stills I took. look great on my Panasonic Plasma 1920x1080p, 42inch.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...ight=ron+evans

Ron
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Old April 9th, 2008, 12:18 AM   #67
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Thanks Ron and Ken.

Looks like you guys are really endorsing hard drive or flash based media. What I was planning on doing is to do a transfer every day to my computer. Once downloaded, the video would be just as accesable, no?

I just think tape may be more smooth and the video better. The HV20/30 have had rave reviews in numerous places and they are tried and true.

It seems like there is no competition between the HF100 and these two but I will check it out when I go to the store on thursday (I have a final tomorrow).

Still waiting on those links to uncompressed videos if they exist. I found small videos at http://www.magazinevideo.com/video-d...hp?videoId=306 (for the SR11) and http://www.magazinevideo.com/video-d...hp?videoId=304 for the HV30.

I must say the HV30 seems to produce nicer shots from what I see.

Obvously, theses are not the determining factors as of yet.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 12:34 AM   #68
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Ron, I took a look at your photos. While they are impressive, the reds look way oversaturated. Maybe its me.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 05:20 AM   #69
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Ken, how would you compare the low-light capabilities of FX1 vs SR11 ?
It's hard to find comparisons between theses two online (because of the time between, and different consumers). I have a friend with the FX1, but the time I get a HF100 in the PAL market...
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Old April 9th, 2008, 06:12 AM   #70
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Robin, although the SR11/12 are pretty good in low light for HD cams (all of which are not great when compared to a camera like a VX2100) they're not quite as good as the FX1. That was probably the best HD cam I ever had for low light.

But again, since I own both a VX2000 & VX2100 (both SD cams), by comparison every HD cam I've ever had pales by comparison.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 06:16 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario Salazar View Post
Ron, I took a look at your photos. While they are impressive, the reds look way oversaturated. Maybe its me.
Mario, I think Ron's photos only suggest at the quality of the pictures the SR11 & 12 are capable of. On my computer, when I enlarge them a bit, Ron's photos tend to have some noise in them due to the compression in getting them on to this site. On my 60" plasma screen, when using the highest quality setting, color and clarity are superb with no visible noise.
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Old April 9th, 2008, 06:47 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario Salazar View Post
Still waiting on those links to uncompressed videos if they exist. I found small videos at http://www.magazinevideo.com/video-d...hp?videoId=306 (for the SR11) and http://www.magazinevideo.com/video-d...hp?videoId=304 for the HV30.

If I get a chance I'll try to upload sunny day shots, but you can try this one that was shot during my early 'testing phase'. It was about to rain that day, but it gives you an idea of the sharpness of the SR12. Subject content is not interesting. By the way, the clips always look far far more impressive on a large screen 1080p plasma. I never seemed to be wowed by how any clips from any of these cams look on a computer screen.

If you can, burn this native file to a DVD-R and play it on a compatible blu-ray player output to your HDTV. That's what I've always done when first looking at cameras that I don't currently own:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LV9LFCX4
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Old April 9th, 2008, 12:39 PM   #73
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Thanks Ken, however I go to the link and I don't know what to do. It shows the file name and size but when I put the cursor over it, it does not have an index to download. I don't know where to go to download the file. Please let me know where to do this.
Thanks!
Mario
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Old April 9th, 2008, 12:40 PM   #74
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Tried again and now it says the file is temporarily unavailable.--Ok Figured that one out.

Thanks for the clip but you are right, the subject is not interesting. I was hoping to get a clip with a little movement but beggers can't be choosers. I will check back in case you post some more. Can't wait to try these babies.

Another thing, for a point of inculcation and clarification with my point about HD tape, am I correct that if I do a transfer from the cam to my computer, I will then be able to have non-linear access to the clips? I think I can do that on a nightly basis. Yes it will suck to wait the approximate 1 hour, but is there something I am missing? Is it just a straight transfer and then you can watch the clip on your lap top pc, or do I have to render the content to view it? If so, I assume I would also have to render a AVCHD clip before viewing it or is it somehow different? If I do have to render either one, will the mobile Atholon 2.2 g with 1.5 gb of memory and a 72,000 rpm seagate hard drive on my 2.5 year old lap top be sufficient to render the files relatively quickly?

If all the above (the necessity to do computer intensive and time consuming rendering to view the files on a PC) has to be done, do you view the clips while on holiday by just attaching the camera to a TV or PC and using it for playback? If this is the case, then I could see why having a non-linear (non-tape based) machine is even MORE convenient for play back purposes for, yes, it would suck to do all that rewinding and so forth to find the portion of the clip you want to access. But if they all dump down to a computer in a format that can be immediately viewed on a pc, the only real benefit in stand alone viewing and the quicker transfer rate to the machine, because after the transfer you can jump around as much as you want using your video player. I guess another advantage is that there are no transport motors to break in an hard drive based machine (though now you have to worry about the hard drive in the SR 11/12. I wounder if the hard drive breeaks if you can still record to flash drives when the hard drive eventually, as they all will, breaks). Please let me know what the situation is on transfer: whether it is a file that must be render to view on a computer or whether it can be viewed right away with either a tape based or non-linear cam.

I assume that to just dump data from a hard drive based or flash card based cam is relatively quick and non-linear (unlike a tape based machine) procedure that can be done to work on them or archive them in case something happens.

Wow, I guess I have asked alot of questions. I have exposed my newbie status! Please don't admonish me to harshly. ;-)

Any help with these would be, again, GREATLY appreciated. Thanks again for all your help so far!!! :-)

Kind Regards,
Mario

Last edited by Mario Salazar; April 9th, 2008 at 01:35 PM. Reason: elaboration
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Old April 9th, 2008, 02:19 PM   #75
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Mario -

Tape is linear for capture and review, period. If you download with an editor that splits the scenes (most do), then you'd have random access to clips, and probably thumbnails so you can edit/delete/etc. You don't need to final edit and render unless you really want to, and I'd hope you've got better things to do.

The advantage of tapeless is the thumbs are right on the camera, totally random access for review on camera or if you can interface to a TV. Downloading the clips you want after deleting any "junk" footage takes about 1/3 real time, and you can probably review those clips at a lower quality - your laptop is going to be a bit underpowered for "ful resolution" methinks, so regard it as a backup/storage device, use the cam and available TV's for review, and edit when you get home...
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