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Inexpensive High Definition H.264 encoding to DVD, Hard Disc or SD Card.


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Old September 15th, 2008, 07:57 PM   #16
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Steve,

Since the original post in this thread once again is clearly looking for a way to burn AVCHD disks, and not BluRay, I will not spend a lot of time debating the relative merits of each. I will say, however, that my own experience with burning BluRay disks using AVCHD content has not, in any way, achieved your claim: "burn BD if you really care about quality". Entirely to the contrary, all of the BD disks I have burned from Vegas, Final Cut, or any of my other NLE programs, have always looked transcoded and noticeably degraded. If you are claiming that uncompressing an h.264 format AVCHD file then resampling and recompressing it into an mpeg2 file can somehow improve the appearance of the content, I can only guess that you have either never done it yourself, or you have a poor monitor which does not reveal the differences. Resampling a very lossy signal and transforming it into another compressed format will degrade it, and does not and will not improve it.

It's true that color correction and other filtering will force recompression, but not all of us color correct every clip as you apprently do. I personally rely on the camera to achieve most color balance and prefer to use the footage intact.

Since the topic of data rate has again come up, I ask you specifically to please present evidence where your claim is based that "The AVCHD specification for data-rate to red-laser DVD is 18Mbps, MAX". As I have stated in an earlier thread, such has not been my experience whatsoever. Please show me the link for your citation / claim.

The other warning / limitation you claim is also one I have never seen stated anywhere other than in your posts: "Canon warns that if you burn 24Mbps to DVD it can only be played in their DVD burner". This is your opinion, and not Canon specs.

I have included the Canon DW-100 AVCHD burner's 30 page Owner's Manual in the link below. No place in this manual or in any other Canon specification I have searched is there any such limitation or restriction posted.

http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Man...0/280DW100.PDF

Where does your claim come from?????????

We have recently "agreed to disagree" so there is no point in persuading you personally that there is any way other than transcoded BluRay output for AVCHD, and indeed Sony may be the right software if you take this approach.

The original poster, me, and a lot of other readers here feel just the opposite, and want to use low cost ($29) red laser burners, 20 cent DVD blanks and AVCHD format disks if possible. We don't want to use $300 burners, $15 blanks, or spend hours transcoding, especially if it compromises quality.

At risk of stating the obvious in a brutally blunt way, this forum, as chartered by the web site founder, is titled : "AVCHD Format Discussion - Inexpensive High Definition H.264 encoding to DVD, Hard Disc or SD Card."

You should really take note of the words "inexpensive", "H.264", and "AVCHD" and strongly resist the urge to offer expensive, BluRay, mpeg2-encoded solutions to those who post on this forum such questions as this particular thread, "Burning AVCHD Disks".

If the poster had asked: "How do I make BluRay disks with my AVCHD content" then perhaps the Sony recommendation would make sense. Since Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum can't even author AVCHD disks whatsoever, I hardly find it a suitable or appropriate recommendation. Hence my re-awakening of this debate.

Larry

Last edited by Larry Horwitz; September 15th, 2008 at 09:43 PM.
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Old September 15th, 2008, 10:38 PM   #17
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1) See attached pix for the specs for AVCHD. This chart was published widely in Japan and later in the USA.

2) Canon Japan has a new posting on MXP (24Mbps) mode, the DW-100, and AVCHD compatibility"

"Our company home page and the digital video camera comprehensive catalog (2008 July edition) page 6 page /11 page /13 page /18 page /24 placing on page /28, and page 7 of saddle stitch,

the MXP mode “of iVIS HF11” “iVIS HG21” (approximately 24Mbps) with the image which is recorded, at DW-100 we guided [to] the effect which is retention possible,

but the function where as for the disk which is retained because there is NO compatibility of the equipment of AVCHD standard

correspondence of marketing, that it is not unable to

cause confusion to the customer, it judges, uses DW-100 and retains the image of MXP mode in the disk faultTo make on-board. Doing to apologize, we correct.

Furthermore, as for the image which is recorded with MXP mode, to the software “ImageMixer 3 SE which” belongs “iVIS HF11” “iVIS HG21” is used, it is retention possible in the hard disk of the blue ray disk and the personal computer.

The product catalog which presently it is open is something of the correction being completed.

3) This long statement replaces the simple statement I read and posted here a month ago.

4) The current materials on the DW-100 do not include information on MXP, so that's the reason you didn't find any limiting statement. See photo of the manual -- you'll see it is PRE MXP.
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Old September 15th, 2008, 11:47 PM   #18
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Steve,

Your attachment and citation is for a small 8 cm "mini-DVD" of the type used inside a (very) few DVD-based AVCHD camcorders such as the one I cited earlier (the Panasonic HDC-DV1). Most AVCHD camcorders do not use an internal DVD recorder, but rather use either a hard disk or solid state memory / flash cards, all of which are not at all limited by write speeds like a mini-DVD drive.

(In fact, my TX-1 Canon HD camera, which uses relatively uncompressed MJPEG HD video, uses a Class 6 flash memory card which is several times faster than an AVCHD camcorder ever could write or read.) Hard-disk based AVCHD camcorders are not limited in this 18 Mbit/sec manner either.

This is *****not a***** spec for an AVCHD of the standard 12 cm size, the type produced by conventional DVD burners. It is a mini-DVD recording spec for 8 cm disks which are inherently slower.

Clearly AVCHD camcorders already announced at 24 Mbits/sec would entirely violate this spec if it were, as you had indicated, a spec for AVCHD itself.

Also note that the "spec" page you attached clearly shows an "approximate" symbol, which engineers use all the time, which looks like this squiggle " ~ ", indicating that even the 8 cm camcorder mini-DVD recording spec is not fixed at 18 Mbits/sec, but instead is approximate.

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Old September 16th, 2008, 01:12 AM   #19
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The " ~ " means "roughly similar" which is the correct statement because the recording is VBR. It does not mean you are free to burn at any rate you want. See how Panasonic describes its ~21Mbps.

HOWEVER, there has been a revision to the AVCHD specs -- although it still doesn't specifically mention 12cm DVDs.

"The two companies have decided to include memory cards (SD Memory Card and Memory Stick) and hard disk drives as applicable recording media of the format in addition to previously-announced 8cm DVD. This is for the purpose of broadening the range of applicable media, thereby allowing wide variety of products to be developed by various manufacturers. The new specification was defined as “AVCHD” format Version 1.0."

AVCHD INFORMATION WEB SITE

This clearly indicates the SIZE of the DVD had nothing at all to do with the 18Mbps limit. In the new spec. every media SHOULD support 24Mbps and every BD player SHOULD be able to play 24Mbps. Should doesn't mean will. :)

However, Smart GOP editors will get you 24Mbps ONLY IF you own a new Canon. And, right now it looks like the old limit of 18Mbps is the maximum one can choose with other burning software. Hopefully that limit will be raised to 24Mbps ASAP.
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Old September 16th, 2008, 08:45 AM   #20
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Steve,

The "~" can indeed be used in geometry to represent similarity, but its common interpretation to engineers is to mean "approximately", and both essentially mean the same thing in the context of our discussion, namely, that 18 Nbit/sec is not a hard limit. I entirely agree that it does not grant any permission to record at any arbitrary rate you wish, and such was never my claim.

If you are arguing that the brief period of finalization of the basic ADVHD spec between May and July of 2006 is the foundation of your claimed 18 Mbit/sec AVCHD upper limit, and that an (apoproximately) 18 Mbit/sec camcorder recording media limit existed for those 2 months until the actual "Version 1" specification was released in July 2006, I will agree entirely. Isn't it then ridiculous to cite 18 Mbit/sec limits presently? Particularly since the stated limit was only imposed on 8 cm camera recording media? As I stated in an earlier thread, I easily burn and then smoothly play 24 Mbit/sec AVCHD disks here using AVCHD recorded content.

Larry

I am adding this postscript to my original message since I have spent some time today seeing where the breaking point lies for the AVC codec and red laser playback on one of my BluRay players. By using TMPGEnc Xpress 4 latest version with 1920 by 1080 AVC output and compliant audio, and using very high complexity source material, mostly particle generated 3D mixed with HD video, I produced h.264 AVC files with both 26 and 40 Mbit/sec average bit rates (1 pass VBR). The Sony played back the 26 Mbit/sec content without any stress, but the 40 Mbit/sec content brought the playback to its knees. I will need to make some additional test files at intervening rates (around 32 and 36) to see if I can more precisely determine where the player saturates. I hope to do so later this week. (I was pleasently surprised to see my quadcore Dell play back the 40 Mbit/sec content with no apparent strain whatsoever.)

Last edited by Larry Horwitz; September 16th, 2008 at 07:36 PM. Reason: Additional testing with high speed AVC encodings
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Old September 17th, 2008, 10:17 PM   #21
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Keep up the good work Larry. In the mpeg2 realm, the PS3 plays back 30mbps average from red laser fine. Take it up to 35mbps average and it plays about a minute before it stutters and staggers. You can pause it, and resume with smooth video for another minute.

I've seen higher bitrate numbers displayed from BD media so there probably is some wisdom in that.

I shoot with the Sony EX1, so the format is XDCAM-EX long gop VBR mpeg2 at native 35mbps. The PS3 won't play this natively for long without stuttering from red laser media. I don't have a BD burner, so when I say I've seen higher bitrates it's from commercial Blu-ray content in AVC or VC1.

I render it in Vegas using the BD template, which is vbr 25mbps average, 30mbps peak, 20mbps minimum. The PS3 plays that perfectly from red laser single or dual layer media. There's not a noticeable degradation from the 1st generation. The rendering proceeds at 2.5-5.0x the realtime, in other words 10 minutes could take up to 50 minutes. I only use Vegas to get that 1st generation render, thereafter use Womble MPEG Video Wizard to cut/splice assemble the clips because it smart renders only around the transitions, or no rendering at all for simple edits. It's extremely fast and easy, and no generational loss.

TSMuxer 1.84 is a freeware utility that muxes BDMV compliant video and audio streams inside an AVCHD wrapper that autoplays from red laser media with chapter stops and 5.1 audio. In other words, it plays back like a video disk, not a data disk.

I don't believe the PS3 can playback AVCHD authored menus. Is that your experience?

I've been doing HD DVD and Blu-ray hybrid authoring for some time. It's pretty straightforward, the HD DVD was easy to make nice playable menus, the Blu-ray has an advantage that I can author 24p for native playback on HDTV monitors that support 1080p24 playback.
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Old September 18th, 2008, 12:31 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
I don't believe the PS3 can playback AVCHD authored menus. Is that your experience?
I've had success with AVCHD authored menus and my friend's PS3 created by Pinnacle Studio 12.
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Old September 18th, 2008, 12:22 PM   #23
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Thanks for the replies Tom and Phil, and for the encouraging words.

Regarding menus, the Playstation 3 does complete menus on AVCHD as will my other 2 BluRay players. By this I mean that all menus can be animated, and the transitions from menu to menu or menu to clip, or clip to menu can also be animated, just the same as a conventional commercial DVD.

Of all the programs I own to author AVCHD, the ONLY one, believe it or not, which can do all of the above is Nero Vision, which is the only one to offer the transitions in the menu structure. The other programs which do menued AVCHDs are Power Director 7, Pinnacle 12, Total Media Extreme, and Ulead Video Studio 11.5. I do not own the latest Adobe Encore but it may possibly do motion / animated menus as well. Sony (ironically) does not support any menus whatsoever, and Ulead Movie Factory does very basic non-motion menus. The fact that Nero Vision has the complete set of many transitions in their AVCHD menu design is yet another example of why I push back so aggresively when somebody who has never used it calls it a "splicing program".

I now have confirmed that 35 MB/sec is too high for playback but 30 is fine, and the tipping point is somewhere in between. Since the playback even at 35 Mbits/sec is still working for quite a while before freezing, I think it is safe to conclude that the playback decoder can handle the bit rate as can the optical sensor and drive servo and other electronics including the checksum hardware. My opinion is that the freeze / stutter is when a buffer is being filled faster by the playback optics/electronics than it can be emptied by the decoder, and thus the playback temporarikly works fine while the buffer is filling but then stalls when the buffer size is exceeded.

It is therefore not surprising that some deluxe h.264 encoders such as the one with DiVX allow buffer size specification in the encoded file, but unfortunately such choices for the user do not exist within my high performance h.264 TMPGEnc encoder. My guess is that a smaller buffer size which is adequate for holding, let's say, 2 seconds of 25 Mbit/sec data, (roughly 6 Mbytes in size), gets filled up in 1.5 seconds with the really high data rates I am attempting, and the playback decoder just can't unload the buffer fast enough. Over 10 or 20 seconds, the buffer begins to overflow, the decoder begins to stutter, and then eventually freezes when there is no further buffer writes possible. This is classical digital signal processing behavior under these conditions. There are also other theories and explanations as to what the failure mechanism is, related to the drive servo and optics, but these are a little more improbable.

I am still anxious to hear back from the original poster, Jamie, and possibly others regarding their Nero Vision experiences.

Larry
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Old September 18th, 2008, 07:58 PM   #24
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Larry,
Just a few questions.

1.) What is your source for the 35mbps AVCHD?

2.) Does Nero Vision force a re-encode of compliant AVCHD?

3.) If no to #2, what are the parameters for compliant AVCHD?

4.) If yes to #2, will it make a quality transcode from mpeg2 to AVCHD?

5.) Can Nero Vision do all this on red laser media?

6.) And lastly (many thanks), will the Nero Vision authored AVCHD disk support 5.1 channel audio?
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Old September 18th, 2008, 10:07 PM   #25
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Animated menus is not something I would use, but it is a unique capability. Seems the trial version of Nero Vision 5 leaves-out all the HD stuff -- so a couple of questions.

1) The Nero docs talk about BDAV. Are you able to get BDMV?

2) Tom mentions his need for 24p. MovieFactory does not support 24p -- does Nero support 24p to AVCHD and/or BD?

3) Does Nero support 720p30, 720p50, 720p60 to AVCHD and/or BD?

4) Tom asks where you got 35Mbps source. My next questions are related:

A) Can you make a "3XDVD"? This is true BD -- including the option to use MPEG-2 -- but burned to a red-laser DVD?

B) When you make a BD and/or "3XDVD" -- can you you choose the encoder: either H.264 and MPEG-2?

C) When you make a BD and/or "3XDVD" -- can you you set the data rate or only choose from Nero's list? What is the maximum?

D) When you burn an AVCHD disc -- can you you set the data rate or only choose from Nero's list? What is the maximum?
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Old September 18th, 2008, 10:15 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
I render it in Vegas using the BD template, which is vbr 25mbps average, 30mbps peak, 20mbps minimum. The PS3 plays that perfectly from red laser single or dual layer media.
Are you using the Burn-to-BD option?

The file structure created by this option is different than the file structure on an AVCHD disc. (You have a BDMV folder and a CERTIFICATE folder in the ROOT.) Which means you are creating a "3XDVD" media.

Are you using MPEG-2 or AVC?

Are you using LPCM or AC3?

Stereo or 5.1?
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Old September 18th, 2008, 11:29 PM   #27
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Are you using the Burn-to-BD option?

The file structure created by this option is different than the file structure on an AVCHD disc. (You have a BDMV folder and a CERTIFICATE folder in the ROOT.) Which means you are creating a "3XDVD" media.

Are you using MPEG-2 or AVC?

Are you using LPCM or AC3?

Stereo or 5.1?
I'm doing mpeg-2, AC3, 5.1, on DVD5/9 media with chapter stops, no menus. The process below works equally well for HDV or XDCAM.

Use the "Render As" option to make an .m2v elementary video stream. It takes two steps, first render the video, and then render the audio elementary stream. You have to do this in two steps because the template doesn't combine the right audio formats for BDMV.

Choose the Main Concept codec and the appropriate Blu-ray template. If you don't modify the template, you can author using Sony DVD Architect 5.0 without re-encoding, but trust me, it's not worth it. DVD-A5.0 just makes a data disk on red laser media. Skip it. You'll see below where TSMuxer makes a distinction in what it does.

Once you have the .m2v and .mpa elementary streams, TSMuxer 1.8.4b in one quick step will mux the streams, and author the following folders:

********************

BDMV
- AUXDATA
- BACKUP
- BDJO
- CLIPINF
- PLAYLIST
- BDJO
- CLIPINF
- JAR
- META
- PLAYLIST
- STREAM

CERTIFICATE
- BACKUP

****************************

Use Nero or ImgBurn to drag the folders and make a DVD-ROM UDF 2.5 disk with the following settings:

No multisession
manual settings
UDF 2.5

******************************

What sets TSMuxer 1.8.4b apart, is that it SPOOFs the player into thinking it's playing an AVCHD disk, but it's actually BDMV. BDMV is not spec'd to play from red laser media, but AVCHD is. That's why the hybrid autoplays like a video disk when inserted, instead of behaving like a data disk from DVDA5.0. (It's a free download. I can send you it, or just google it. It takes about 5 seconds, just a simple utility.)

There is a separate hack for putting menus on the disk I can point you to.

******************************

What has Larry and me and you running in different directions is that he's working with native AVCHD (I think), whereas I would be transcoding to it from mpeg-2. There would be no reason for him to go to mpeg-2, but AVCHD would be sensible for me to get more recording time onto cheap media.

*******************************

What Larry's workflow would bring to the table (if it worked for mpeg-2) is menus and more recording time.

******************************

I am following Steve's other thread about the different profiles for AVCHD as well. From what I can see with Vegas Pro 8.0, there are two AVCHD codecs to choose from, either Sony or Main Concept. The Sony flavor doesn't support 23.976, instead 24 fps. Neither codec supports 5.1 audio, and the profile is Main or Base, but not "High" (or 4.1/5.1). So it's fine for VIMEO, lacking for BD.
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Old September 19th, 2008, 12:15 AM   #28
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What has Larry and me and you running in different directions is that he's working with native AVCHD (I think), whereas I would be transcoding to it from mpeg-2. There would be no reason for him to go to mpeg-2, but AVCHD would be sensible for me to get more recording time onto cheap media.
Exactly! I've come to realize that the AVCHD forum includes those who shoot AVCHD and those who may, or may not, shoot it. Some of us are looking at AVCHD as a distribution codec.

After much I Googling -- I realize that you and I have no real need for AVCHD, the SONY/Panasonic format.

We need the second alternate red-laser form of BD called BD-9. (In fact, there is yet a third red-laser version of BD. It is for recording HDTV and auto transcodes ATSC MPEG-2 to H.264.) The nice thing about BD-9 is you can use any of the three BD codecs and at any rate up to a peak of 30 or 35 Mbps.

In the old HD DVD world we had 3XDVD, but no confusion with a camcorder format. In the BD world, it seems 3XDVD is far less known.

Unfortunately, from what I have read, is that the PS3 differs from other BD players on how they handle BD-9 discs. Supposedly, unless you build the discs right, the PS3 sees red-laser without an AVCHD file structure and assumes a data disc. This is why you use TSMuxer 1.8.4b.

I'm looking for a program that adds menus AND gives you the option to burn a red-laser BDMV disc the PS3 will accept that will also be accepted by the other BD players. And, does 24p and 720p. All this is needed by those who shoot with the EX1.

MF6+ works very well, but doesn't do 24p or 720p -- although there are ways to trick it. Nero I don't know.
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Old September 19th, 2008, 12:37 AM   #29
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Tom,

My replies are interleaved below:

____________________________
Larry,
Just a few questions.

1.) What is your source for the 35mbps AVCHD?

1920 by 1080 content from a composite of high action AVCHD and 3D graphics animations (mostly from a program called Bluff Titler with many tiny and fast moving particles) created as a 60 second AVI file and then rendered into very high rate h.264 and muxed audio with TMPGEnc Xpress 4 latest version.

2.) Does Nero Vision force a re-encode of compliant AVCHD?

No, and this is the major reason I find it so fast compared to other programs which cannot "Smart Render".

3.) If no to #2, what are the parameters for compliant AVCHD?

The exact same format as the camcorder-created .mts file, namely, 256kb/s Digital Dolby 2 channel audio, 1920 by 1080 29.97 fps Upper Field first interleaved AVC video, variable bitrate, with straight pass through as I have tested up to 24 Mbit/sec aggregate rate

4.) If yes to #2, will it make a quality transcode from mpeg2 to AVCHD?

N/A

5.) Can Nero Vision do all this on red laser media?

Absolutely. AVCHD disks are ONLY made with red laser blanks.

(BluRay disks with AVC/h.264 encoding are also supported, I believe, but I have not played with this specifically using Nero)

6.) And lastly (many thanks), will the Nero Vision authored AVCHD disk support 5.1 channel audio?

This last one is a bit tricky, since I have not seen any native AVCHD camcorders or content with with 5.1 to try. The Nero package certainly has both 5.1 encoder and decoder codecs, allows 5.1 editing in the companion program called Nero Wave Editor, and supports playback of 5.1 in the companion program Nero ShowTime. The safe answer to your question Tom is "No, I do not think so" but I am really not sure.

Glad to help...

Larry

Postscript:

I looked at the encoder options for audio and learned that the user actually can set 1 of 3 possible choices for audio encoding on the AVCHD disk:

2 channel (stereo) Digital Dolby
5.1 channel (surround) Digital Dolby
LPCM

I thus assume that a properly created source file with 5.1 could therefore be encoded on the AVCHD disk with DD5.1.

Last edited by Larry Horwitz; September 19th, 2008 at 01:44 AM. Reason: looked at Digital Dolby options in the program preferences
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Old September 19th, 2008, 01:40 AM   #30
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Same method of replies by interleaving below, Steve:

______________________________________________
Animated menus is not something I would use, but it is a unique capability. Seems the trial version of Nero Vision 5 leaves-out all the HD stuff -- so a couple of questions.

1) The Nero docs talk about BDAV. Are you able to get BDMV?

Absolutely!

2) Tom mentions his need for 24p. MovieFactory does not support 24p -- does Nero support 24p to AVCHD and/or BD?

I have not tried it, but a bit of digging in the program's settings, preferences, etc. does not show any evidence of user choice of 24p. It's possible but unlikely that it passes 24p (just as it passes 24 Mbit/sec bitrate) unannounced with no user over-ride or settings revealed yet fully intact.

3) Does Nero support 720p30, 720p50, 720p60 to AVCHD and/or BD?

Again, I see no evidence of it in any program customizing, nor do I see any claims to suggest that it is an option. When I take 720p video (MJPEG) from my Canon TX-1 and author AVCHD disks, it most certainly transcodes and then outputs a 1920 by 1080 format AVCHD disk so I am guessing it does not know how to make lesser resolution AVCHD disks. I don't have an AVCHD source here for 720p, and in fact can not recall ever seeing one advertised...........



4) Tom asks where you got 35Mbps source. My next questions are related:

A) Can you make a "3XDVD"? This is true BD -- including the option to use MPEG-2 -- but burned to a red-laser DVD?

Not with NeroVision.

B) When you make a BD can you you choose the encoder: either H.264 and MPEG-2?

Yes, for BD both encoders are provided / supported.

C) When you make a BD can you you set the data rate or only choose from Nero's list? What is the maximum?

The maximum BD rate allowed (in "Custom" setting) is 40 Mbits/sec, and can either be set to about a half dozen presets or to a manually entered value up to 40 Mbits/sec.

D) When you burn an AVCHD disc -- can you you set the data rate or only choose from Nero's list? What is the maximum?

The program allows you to optionally set the bitrate manually, with a maximum manual setting of 17 Mbits/sec. When the program burns AVCHDs in the default mode however, it passes the native video and audio bitrate of the source material through without any re-rendering despite the fact that the source video exceeds the maximum permissible 17 Mbit/sec manual setting. Thus, 24 Mbit/sec clips from the Canon HF11, for example, are found in the output BDMV>STREAMS folder as .mts files of the same size and bitrates as the original clips from the HF11. And as further confirmation, my players which show real time bitrates confirm that both the source as well as the actual AVCHD disk have exactly the same bitrates, nominally 24 Mbits/sec VBR.
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One final and very important point to both Steve and Tom (and anyone else patient enough to follow this thread to this point):


I originally recommended Nero Vision as 3rd in my list of 4 or 5 AVCHD authoring programs to those seeking a method of producing AVCHD disks. I do not consider it to be the ultimate tool for video editing, nor do I even use it particularly for BluRay or HD DVD, both of which I have authored here for quite a long time using much better software for those formats. My familiarity and preference for Nero is highly focused on the thing it does so superbly well, so amazingly quickly, and at such a low cost, and that is to make AVCHD disks which look great, play great, and take extremely little time or cost.

Thus I have been reacting violently to the type of complex and fully featured programs which many (perhaps most) AVCHD camcorder buyers cannot easily afford or use and are really much better suited for the world of HDV, Blu Ray, HD DVD, etc.

Once Nero Vision is applied in the same general way that higher end NLEs are used, it not only fails by comparison in terms of feature set, but it too bogs down and makes this 3.0 GHz quadcore Penryn with SSE4 behave in very much the same way as Vegas, Edius, Final Cut, or any of the others run here, slooooow. If I am seeing 5X rendering times and sluggish scrubs on my timelines on this very high end Dell workstation, then my very first instinct when replying to people with laptops who are trying to handle AVCHD is to suggest a Nero type of solution since it fits them much better. Not only in performance, but most likely in cost. The AVCHD market may eventually become pro, but for the time being it is entirely dominated by lower end users and many amatuers who naively bought AVCHD without realizing the computer implications. Thus I have relatively little good experience on the BluRay end of using Nero since I much prefer DVD Architect 5 and several other BD methods for that format. This specific forum, reserved for AVCHD, is a place where such people should be able to get good, crisp AVCHD answers, IMHO.

-----------end of rant--------------

Hope I have answered any questions posed to me.

Larry
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