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AVCHD Format Discussion
Inexpensive High Definition H.264 encoding to DVD, Hard Disc or SD Card.


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Old September 19th, 2008, 11:25 AM   #31
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I read you loud and clear Larry. I appreciate the trouble you take to articulate in such detail.

I don't think you have anything to defend. There are no sacred cows and my ox has been gored many times. I have Vegas Pro 8.0(c) but express a fondness for simple editing utilities that save time and money.

I will give Nero Vision a try. You have to try things and experiment to get anywhere. You've just taken a lot of that burden off of us.
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Old September 19th, 2008, 11:37 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
(In fact, there is yet a third red-laser version of BD. It is for recording HDTV and auto transcodes ATSC MPEG-2 to H.264.) The nice thing about BD-9 is you can use any of the three BD codecs and at any rate up to a peak of 30 or 35 Mbps.
YES!!! Bring it on!!!

I'm looking for a program that adds menus AND gives you the option to burn a red-laser BDMV disc the PS3 will accept that will also be accepted by the other BD players. And, does 24p and 720p. All this is needed by those who shoot with the EX1.

Quote:
MF6+ works very well, but doesn't do 24p or 720p -- although there are ways to trick it. Nero I don't know.
MF6+ with the HD pack worked very well for me with HD DVD especially, and BD from HDV 1440 60i also works, but insists on rendering everything that comes full raster from the EX1.

I wonder if Nero Vision would natively pass a high bit rate AVCHD rendered by Vegas Pro 8.0(c) without re-encoding...
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Old September 19th, 2008, 12:03 PM   #33
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Here's the Answer from MozartMan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper
The one issue I had with Vegas Pro 8.0(b) AVCHD is no support for 5.1 audio. Has that changed?

Tom,

Vegas Pro 8.0b had AVCHD template with DD 5.1 surround audio. You had to choose Sony AVC template, not MainConcept. The problem was that 8.0b only had template for 1440x1080. Now 8.0c added 1920x1080 AVCHD template.


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Originally Posted by Tom Roper
Could you take the Vegas Pro 8.0 AVCHD and have Nero Vision author that with menus? (No disrepect for your original .pdf menu hack...)

Yes, you can. Here is what Nero tells me at the final screen before compiling project:

Audio format:Automatic
Sample format:Automatic
Encoding mode:Fast Encoding (1-Pass)
Nero SmartEncoding: Automatic

Number of titles: 1
1. Gang-V (Video Title, 0h 03m 28s)
- Audio SmartEncoding ratio: 100.0 %
- Video SmartEncoding ratio: 100.0 %

Video disc menu: Title and chapter menus

So, AVCHD file generated by Vegas 8.0c using Sony AVCHD template works perfectly with Nero Vision without re-encoding when you have SmartEncoding enabled in Nero Vision.

***********************************************************

Next, to try this with 1080p24...

...and also see if the 1920 Sony AVCHD template smart renders through Nero at higher than 17mbps bit rate, sounds from Larry Horwitz like it could.
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Old September 19th, 2008, 12:07 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
Larry,
Just a few questions.

1.) What is your source for the 35mbps AVCHD?

2.) Does Nero Vision force a re-encode of compliant AVCHD?

3.) If no to #2, what are the parameters for compliant AVCHD?

4.) If yes to #2, will it make a quality transcode from mpeg2 to AVCHD?

5.) Can Nero Vision do all this on red laser media?

6.) And lastly (many thanks), will the Nero Vision authored AVCHD disk support 5.1 channel audio?
I will ask to 6. Yes, Nero Vision authored AVCHD with 5.1 channel audio, from my SR11 files. It doesn't extract audio stream, it leaves in 5.1 original format (so if you don't have 5.1 in your original files, it can't recode to 5.1).
Playing in PowerDVD or Nero Showtime I have info that is 5.1 sound.
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Old September 19th, 2008, 10:50 PM   #35
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With Vegas Pro 8.0(c) it comes down to this:

For 1920x1080 resolution on red laser media, you can have any two of these three, but not all three at once:

- menus
- 5.1 surround
- 24p

**********************************************

No 24p in AVCHD, 16mbps max

No 5.1 in AVC, unlimited mbps


***********************************************

In Sony Vegas Pro 8.0(c)

AVC and AVCHD are not exactly the same. I think they are both h264, but different profiles. I believe Steve Mullen would characterize AVCHD as the "Sony/Panasonic" consumer format. Within Vegas at least, AVC has a much higher potential in regards to the video specs, but no 5.1 surround.

I think no matter what products we try with red laser media, what I said in the opening paragraph will always be true, any 2 of the 3 is the best we will get, menus, 5.1 surround or 24p, but not all 3 together.

And to get 5.1 surround and 24p together on red laser media, it's going to have to be mpeg-2 using TSMuxer 1.8.4b to create the hybrid disk, with no menus.
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Old September 20th, 2008, 03:03 AM   #36
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Tom,
Using sprinklerpan60imxp.m2ts and sprinklerzoom60imxp.m2ts (from Chris tests) I succesfully authored an AVCHD with 3d menues and transitions in Nero Vision, on a DVD-RW media. The result plays fine in PowerDVD, and it has 24mb/s and Dolby Digital 2.0 (the same as original files).

I will search for 24p and 5.1 surround Panasonic files (the only camcorders that have both), but i'm sure it will go ok...

About 5.1 in AVC (not AVCHD, in Nero AVC container is mp4) I also make 5.1 files from my SR11.
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Old September 20th, 2008, 05:19 AM   #37
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Mircea,

Excellent news that 24p 24Mbit/sec Smart rendered 3D menued AVCHD disks with menu transitions are supported with DD2. DD5.1 should work as well.

The Nero ShowTime player is yet another reason to buy Nero as it will play this disk properly and as well as PowerDVD at a small fraction of cost.

And check out Nero's audio editor....WaveEdit..... Looks and works like Sony's $299 Sound Forge and Apple's super expennsive audio editor in FCP!

The magazine reviews and other so-called 'authoritative' ratings and reviews of NLEs are just totally clueless about this Nero software.

Larry

Last edited by Larry Horwitz; September 20th, 2008 at 10:08 AM.
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Old September 20th, 2008, 09:18 AM   #38
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I'm just saying I can't get there with Vegas Pro 8.0(c) because there's not a way that to combine 24p and 5.1 before it even gets to the step where Nero Vision could smart render it.

I need a way to mux an AC3 5.1 audio stream to a 24fps AVC/.mp4 video stream.

Anybody have any ideas?
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Old September 20th, 2008, 10:06 AM   #39
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Tom,

TMPGEnc Xpress 4 allows you to do this easily with ac3 files containing 2 channel stereo, and I can only assume that it would also work for 5.1 content as well.

Larry
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Old September 20th, 2008, 10:48 AM   #40
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I will take a look at TMPGEnc Xpress 4.0.

I have used version 3 for several years, it has licensed AC3 encoding but only for 2 channel. I also used to use TMPGEnc DVD Author (for std-def), but it would resample 5.1 back to 2 channel AC3, so I moved on to the Ulead authoring products, which started adding HD DVD and Blu-ray capabilities.

So you're saying that Xpress 4.0 can mux streams together without rendering? Womble MPEG Video Wizard does this for mpeg but doesn't support h.264.

Womble if you haven't tried it, is actually the best smart rendering editor I've tried, with the fastest scrubbing, includes a useful toolset of muxing/demuxing and other assorted utilities, and support for AC3 5.1, sound line editing. It's really the slickest user inferface I've tried. I only use Vegas for a few workflow steps that I have to. Vegas or one of the other large NLE's is pretty much required by the XDCAM-EX workflow at some point, at the minimum to convert .mxf files or demux the audio. As soon as I can get it to Womble, that's where I take it for non-rendered cuts and splice editing. But again, it's for mpeg-2.
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Old September 20th, 2008, 11:04 AM   #41
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Tom,
In the 5 years I did HDV editing I used most of the tools available, including Womble, VideoReDo, TMPGE, and essentially all of the NLEs including the original Final Cut, Mac version of Premiere, etc. Now that I am concentrating on AVCHD, I have been "forced" to get a new tool set which handles this format. I have been very aggressive in seeking out every tool I can, and using them in as many ways as I can try. I too am a big fan of Womple, TMPGE, and some of the other "classic" mpeg2 tools, and dearly wish they offered true AVCHD equivalents.

In the case of TMPGE latest version, they do not offer the "MPEG Tools" mux and de-mux choices for AVCHD which they still offer for mpeg 1 and 2. Instead, you add files to the timeline with both AVC video and AC3 audio formats supported (as well as many other formats) and then let the encoder remux them. It is entirely possible that the entire video and audio content is re-rendered, so I may not have entirely answered your original question which asked for "re-muxing". TMPGEnc Express 4 will create the right output file, but I would guess that it does so with rendering involved. You can give the trial a workout and see what happens. I do believe it now handles 5.1 without downcoversion to stereo, so this may be a good thing for you also.

Perhaps Virtual Dub might be fooled into remuxing the 2 files, but not really sure. There may also be some shareware out there that works as well. I typically avoid most of the shareware since it is just so unpredictable, but it may be worth a search with Google. I also want to believe that companies who have built VideoReDo, Womble, etc. eventually have to get on the AVCHD bandwagon, since their mass market sales are now srongly headed towards AVCHD format.

Larry
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Old September 20th, 2008, 11:34 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz View Post
I do believe it now handles 5.1 without downcoversion to stereo, so this may be a good thing for you also.
That is the key, keeping it to just 1 render.

If Xpress 4.0 would just not molest the 5.1 to stereo, I could give it a native mpeg-2 source file.

Then I would have an end to end workflow.

This (Xpress 4.0) would be for high bitrate AVC, yes?
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Old September 20th, 2008, 12:26 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz View Post
Mircea,

Excellent news that 24p 24Mbit/sec Smart rendered 3D menued AVCHD disks with menu transitions are supported with DD2. DD5.1 should work as well.

The Nero ShowTime player is yet another reason to buy Nero as it will play this disk properly and as well as PowerDVD at a small fraction of cost.
Larry
Thank you Larry. Unfortunatelly Nero ShowTime don't play AVCHD disks, it gives the message that this function is not supported yet (missing function: AVCHD playback).
I will look in forums for this, it's somehow strange that I think it's in many ways a much better player that PowerDVD.

Of course you can play streams from AVCHD and authored BR, but not authored AVCHD...
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Old September 20th, 2008, 12:57 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
I'm just saying I can't get there with Vegas Pro 8.0(c) because there's not a way that to combine 24p and 5.1 before it even gets to the step where Nero Vision could smart render it.

I need a way to mux an AC3 5.1 audio stream to a 24fps AVC/.mp4 video stream.

Anybody have any ideas?
I just make a AVC (mp4) from a 24p trailer and a AC3 soundtrack in Nero Vision. I mute the track from the trailer and voila, I have a new 24p clip 1080p with a new AC3 track. Of course, no smartrender, Nero smartrenders only in AVCHD, not in AVC.
Making an AVCHD is the same...
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Old September 20th, 2008, 01:37 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea Voinea View Post
...Nero smartrenders only in AVCHD, not in AVC.
That's what I was afraid of. I'm going to go ahead and update my Nero and see what it can do for me. Thanks.
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