Burning AVCH Disks Please Help!!

Peter Holzel · November 24th, 2008, 07:12 PM

I tried using VSX2 to smart render edited 30p and I am still getting the blips. Larry, can you try to reproduce the blips using 60i on your HF100? I will try to run some more tests.

Larry Horwitz · November 24th, 2008, 07:37 PM

Peter,

60i from my Canon HF100 produces the same blips on my system as they do on yours, but 30p frame rate has no evidence of blips whatsoever for the 2 trials I've done here. If you want to send me another clip taken with your HF100 at 30p I will be glad to use it to make another trial run here, and see how it goes. Try to keep your clip in the 6 or 7 MB size range so that the finished movie I send back to you will be no more than 14 or 15 MB including the transition I add at the middle.

Larry

Peter Holzel · November 24th, 2008, 07:45 PM

Larry, I sent a couple more files to the email. One is the 30p MTS and the other is the edited 30p item. In regard to transitions: I've heard that transitions on HF100 MTS files are an insurmountable bug with VSX2 because they always cause blips. I am merely having problems with straight cuts.

Peter Holzel · November 24th, 2008, 07:54 PM

I've also sent to the email a 60i clip that was smart rendered by Nero, then edited and smart rendered by VSX2. Although the blip is gone, I notice a distinct fast motion artifact where the blip would normally occur. It seems that when VSX2 uses the Nero file it is smoothing over the blip by using a fast motion artifact. I am sure that the pan was steady, so the fast motion you see before the cut is likely created by VSX2.

Peter Holzel · November 24th, 2008, 08:13 PM

I did a test where I took a 30p HF100 file, smart rendered with Nero, then edited and smart rendered with VSX2. This one looks pretty much artifact free, although my weak computer stutters a bit during playback, so I may not be noticing some very small problems. I think I will stick with this workflow barring any revelations that anyone has. Thanks again for all your help, Larry.

Larry Horwitz · November 24th, 2008, 09:07 PM

This is a really interesting set of files Peter. I do see a very small but noticeable flaw in the place formerly occupied by the blip, and it too is a stitching / splicing error but far less noticeable. Your test clip is an extremely revealing one, since the graduated measuring tape as well as the linear motion of the pan clearly shows flaws in both the correct fitting of the splice spatially as well as the uniform motion (or lack thereof) temporally. The videos I used for my VSX2Pro work were far less revealing since they contained mostly boating scenes from the summer I made while on the water. The motion of the waves and the boat and people did not allow for such accurate and precise inspection, nor did they reveal the flaws in joining or lack of totally linear rendering of the splice.

It may be reassuring for you to note that I do not see any stuttering in any of your samples, and attribute the stutter to your hardware. The blips are there for sure, but are masked (only for 30p) by "normal" video clip content which lacks the frames of reference you have chosen.

The Nero work-around does help, but adds another step, and slightly degrades quality.

I am going to do a little more experimentation here, but think perhaps we are both in agreement that VSX2Pro has a problem which is, in the case of 60i with the HF100 clearly visible, with 30p visible with the right type of stressing clip, and next to invisible otherwise. Not a great conclusion to arrive at.....

I am going to go back and take a look at Cyberlink Power Director, another low cost AVCHD program I use a lot here, and see how it handles the very same clip and splice. I will let you know.....

Best,
Larry

Larry Horwitz · November 24th, 2008, 09:30 PM

Peter,

I have just sent you a Cyberlink PowerDirector 7 Ultra clip using your original 00050.MTS 30p clip cut into 2 pieces and then arranged with the second part preceding the 1st part, then smart rendered. How does it look to you?

Larry

Larry Horwitz · November 24th, 2008, 09:52 PM

Peter,

There is also a sample from Vegas 8 Pro I have made for you to look at using your clip in the same manner. Check the shared file gmail account.

Larry

Peter Holzel · November 25th, 2008, 06:42 PM

The Vegas video seems to be much shorter than the other clips we have been looking at, but it is only 1.9mb.

The Power Director Video seems to stutter a bit, but maybe it is my player.

I think I will stick with HF100 30p smart rendered with Nero, followed by VSX2 editing and smart-rendering. I think I will try to cut at points where there is minimal camera movement, because static shots seem to camoflauge the artifacts.

Larry Horwitz · November 25th, 2008, 09:13 PM

Peter,

The Vegas sample is 18.88 MBytes, and I went to the Gmail account and downloaded it to my own machine just to verify the entire file was indeed uploaded. I am not sure why you are seeing a smaller file, since it is certainly 18.88 MBytes in length on Gmail.

The stutter you apparently are seeing on the Cyberlink Power Director sample is arising from your player / computer. The sample does not stutter at all on this machine.

The workflow you have settled on with Nero and Video Studio does work, but I would find it a bit cumbersome. Hopefully Corel will get the bug fixed soon.....

Larry

Peter Holzel · November 26th, 2008, 07:58 AM

In that case, it sounds like Power Director is the way to go for HF100 AVCHD, providing your system satisfies the requirements. I will try the demo and see what happens. I'm a bit nervous that my computer isn't up to the system requirements. It's too bad that more video editors don't have the smart proxy system that VS has. That would allow a lot more computers to edit AVCHD.

Larry Horwitz · November 26th, 2008, 08:27 AM

Peter,

In the final analysis, if I could keep one and only one program for AVCHD, it would be PowerDirector 7 Ultra.

It did not get smart rendering added until recently in an update patch, and it was buggy when it was first released but now runs very smoothly. I'm not sure how well it will run on your system, but the download trial should answer your question in this regard. It seems to handle the HF100 exceptionally well, does really nice looking disks, and is mostly very intuitive to use.

Unlike some of the other programs I have used, it also does a gentle but very impressive manually specified and optional "sharpening" to AVCHD clips if you should chose to do so. This becomes desireable when other editing has been done (such as color balance changes or titling) where re-rendering is unavoidable. The sharpening results in the final rendering video looking indistinguishable in very fine detail from the original clip.

It most certainly is worth a download trial, and, in my opinion, unquestionably well worth the cost of purchase. I believe they also use a smart proxy and the mimimum hardware seems to be consistent with your system: "AVCHD and MPEG-2 HD Profiles: Pentium Core 2 Duo E6400 or Athlon 64 X2 5000+".
Larry

Juan Castle · November 28th, 2008, 11:39 PM

Hi Larry,

I've been using the trial version of PowerDirector 7 for a couple of days and I can't get smart rendering work. I'm assuming that's no enable in this version.

Can you please explain how you get SVRT to work in PD 7? Are you creating a custom profile or is the profile include in the full version?

Thanks,

Juan

Larry Horwitz · November 29th, 2008, 09:23 AM

Hi Juan,

It appears that the SVRT feature is always on, and I do not know of a switch you need to use to enable it.

You can show SVRT info by choosing the VIEW Menu and then selecting the SVRT info choice.

If SVRT is available for a specific clip, it has a green bar above it in the time line. If not, it has different color bars depending on whether video and audio re-rendering is required.

I have attached 2 screen clips which show:

1. The proper setting of the SVRT info panel to show AVCHD 1920 by 1080 HD SVRT

2. the SVRT time line with one clip in red and the other in green, showing the first will be re-rendered and the second will not.

I assume you are using AVCHD format video.

Be sure you are using the latest 2.2.2.7.c. release of Power Director 7 Ultra. Earlier versions do not provide SVRT for AVCHD. Cyberlink did not officially admit it was absent in the prior version nor did it advertise the fact that it was added for 2.2.2.7.c.

Hope this helps you,

Larry

Juan Castle · November 29th, 2008, 10:58 AM

Thanks Larry,

I can tell by the first screen shot that the TRIAL version of PD 7 does NOT include the AVCHD 1920X1080 profile. I did create a custom profile, but it's not added to the SVRT info panel, therefore no smart rendering present. In conclusion, you need to buy the full version to see SVRT working (what a shame cyberlink!)

I'm using m2ts files from my Canon HF-10 (1920X1080 - 17Mbps - 60i and 30p). I was sold with VideoStudio X2, but the infamous "blip bug" that you and Peter described here kills the deal. Do you think this bug can be fixed? Almost three months have passed from the first time somebody described this problem in their forums.

In PowerDirector, is the bitrate in my files (17Mbps) an issue to get smart rendering working?

Thanks again.

November 29th, 2008, 09:23 AM	#134
Larry Horwitz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Eggertsville, NY Posts: 528	Hi Juan, It appears that the SVRT feature is always on, and I do not know of a switch you need to use to enable it. You can show SVRT info by choosing the VIEW Menu and then selecting the SVRT info choice. If SVRT is available for a specific clip, it has a green bar above it in the time line. If not, it has different color bars depending on whether video and audio re-rendering is required. I have attached 2 screen clips which show: 1. The proper setting of the SVRT info panel to show AVCHD 1920 by 1080 HD SVRT 2. the SVRT time line with one clip in red and the other in green, showing the first will be re-rendered and the second will not. I assume you are using AVCHD format video. Be sure you are using the latest 2.2.2.7.c. release of Power Director 7 Ultra. Earlier versions do not provide SVRT for AVCHD. Cyberlink did not officially admit it was absent in the prior version nor did it advertise the fact that it was added for 2.2.2.7.c. Hope this helps you, Larry Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

November 24th, 2008, 07:12 PM	#121
Peter Holzel Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 45	I tried using VSX2 to smart render edited 30p and I am still getting the blips. Larry, can you try to reproduce the blips using 60i on your HF100? I will try to run some more tests.

November 24th, 2008, 07:37 PM	#122
Larry Horwitz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Eggertsville, NY Posts: 528	Peter, 60i from my Canon HF100 produces the same blips on my system as they do on yours, but 30p frame rate has no evidence of blips whatsoever for the 2 trials I've done here. If you want to send me another clip taken with your HF100 at 30p I will be glad to use it to make another trial run here, and see how it goes. Try to keep your clip in the 6 or 7 MB size range so that the finished movie I send back to you will be no more than 14 or 15 MB including the transition I add at the middle. Larry

November 24th, 2008, 07:45 PM	#123
Peter Holzel Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 45	Larry, I sent a couple more files to the email. One is the 30p MTS and the other is the edited 30p item. In regard to transitions: I've heard that transitions on HF100 MTS files are an insurmountable bug with VSX2 because they always cause blips. I am merely having problems with straight cuts.

November 24th, 2008, 07:54 PM	#124
Peter Holzel Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 45	I've also sent to the email a 60i clip that was smart rendered by Nero, then edited and smart rendered by VSX2. Although the blip is gone, I notice a distinct fast motion artifact where the blip would normally occur. It seems that when VSX2 uses the Nero file it is smoothing over the blip by using a fast motion artifact. I am sure that the pan was steady, so the fast motion you see before the cut is likely created by VSX2.

November 24th, 2008, 08:13 PM	#125
Peter Holzel Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 45	I did a test where I took a 30p HF100 file, smart rendered with Nero, then edited and smart rendered with VSX2. This one looks pretty much artifact free, although my weak computer stutters a bit during playback, so I may not be noticing some very small problems. I think I will stick with this workflow barring any revelations that anyone has. Thanks again for all your help, Larry.

November 24th, 2008, 09:07 PM	#126
Larry Horwitz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Eggertsville, NY Posts: 528	This is a really interesting set of files Peter. I do see a very small but noticeable flaw in the place formerly occupied by the blip, and it too is a stitching / splicing error but far less noticeable. Your test clip is an extremely revealing one, since the graduated measuring tape as well as the linear motion of the pan clearly shows flaws in both the correct fitting of the splice spatially as well as the uniform motion (or lack thereof) temporally. The videos I used for my VSX2Pro work were far less revealing since they contained mostly boating scenes from the summer I made while on the water. The motion of the waves and the boat and people did not allow for such accurate and precise inspection, nor did they reveal the flaws in joining or lack of totally linear rendering of the splice. It may be reassuring for you to note that I do not see any stuttering in any of your samples, and attribute the stutter to your hardware. The blips are there for sure, but are masked (only for 30p) by "normal" video clip content which lacks the frames of reference you have chosen. The Nero work-around does help, but adds another step, and slightly degrades quality. I am going to do a little more experimentation here, but think perhaps we are both in agreement that VSX2Pro has a problem which is, in the case of 60i with the HF100 clearly visible, with 30p visible with the right type of stressing clip, and next to invisible otherwise. Not a great conclusion to arrive at..... I am going to go back and take a look at Cyberlink Power Director, another low cost AVCHD program I use a lot here, and see how it handles the very same clip and splice. I will let you know..... Best, Larry

November 24th, 2008, 09:30 PM	#127
Larry Horwitz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Eggertsville, NY Posts: 528	Peter, I have just sent you a Cyberlink PowerDirector 7 Ultra clip using your original 00050.MTS 30p clip cut into 2 pieces and then arranged with the second part preceding the 1st part, then smart rendered. How does it look to you? Larry

November 24th, 2008, 09:52 PM	#128
Larry Horwitz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Eggertsville, NY Posts: 528	Peter, There is also a sample from Vegas 8 Pro I have made for you to look at using your clip in the same manner. Check the shared file gmail account. Larry

November 25th, 2008, 06:42 PM	#129
Peter Holzel Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 45	The Vegas video seems to be much shorter than the other clips we have been looking at, but it is only 1.9mb. The Power Director Video seems to stutter a bit, but maybe it is my player. I think I will stick with HF100 30p smart rendered with Nero, followed by VSX2 editing and smart-rendering. I think I will try to cut at points where there is minimal camera movement, because static shots seem to camoflauge the artifacts.

November 25th, 2008, 09:13 PM	#130
Larry Horwitz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Eggertsville, NY Posts: 528	Peter, The Vegas sample is 18.88 MBytes, and I went to the Gmail account and downloaded it to my own machine just to verify the entire file was indeed uploaded. I am not sure why you are seeing a smaller file, since it is certainly 18.88 MBytes in length on Gmail. The stutter you apparently are seeing on the Cyberlink Power Director sample is arising from your player / computer. The sample does not stutter at all on this machine. The workflow you have settled on with Nero and Video Studio does work, but I would find it a bit cumbersome. Hopefully Corel will get the bug fixed soon..... Larry

November 26th, 2008, 07:58 AM	#131
Peter Holzel Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 45	In that case, it sounds like Power Director is the way to go for HF100 AVCHD, providing your system satisfies the requirements. I will try the demo and see what happens. I'm a bit nervous that my computer isn't up to the system requirements. It's too bad that more video editors don't have the smart proxy system that VS has. That would allow a lot more computers to edit AVCHD.

November 26th, 2008, 08:27 AM	#132
Larry Horwitz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Eggertsville, NY Posts: 528	Peter, In the final analysis, if I could keep one and only one program for AVCHD, it would be PowerDirector 7 Ultra. It did not get smart rendering added until recently in an update patch, and it was buggy when it was first released but now runs very smoothly. I'm not sure how well it will run on your system, but the download trial should answer your question in this regard. It seems to handle the HF100 exceptionally well, does really nice looking disks, and is mostly very intuitive to use. Unlike some of the other programs I have used, it also does a gentle but very impressive manually specified and optional "sharpening" to AVCHD clips if you should chose to do so. This becomes desireable when other editing has been done (such as color balance changes or titling) where re-rendering is unavoidable. The sharpening results in the final rendering video looking indistinguishable in very fine detail from the original clip. It most certainly is worth a download trial, and, in my opinion, unquestionably well worth the cost of purchase. I believe they also use a smart proxy and the mimimum hardware seems to be consistent with your system: "AVCHD and MPEG-2 HD Profiles: Pentium Core 2 Duo E6400 or Athlon 64 X2 5000+". Larry

November 28th, 2008, 11:39 PM	#133
Juan Castle New Boot Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 9	Hi Larry, I've been using the trial version of PowerDirector 7 for a couple of days and I can't get smart rendering work. I'm assuming that's no enable in this version. Can you please explain how you get SVRT to work in PD 7? Are you creating a custom profile or is the profile include in the full version? Thanks, Juan

November 29th, 2008, 10:58 AM	#135
Juan Castle New Boot Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 9	Thanks Larry, I can tell by the first screen shot that the TRIAL version of PD 7 does NOT include the AVCHD 1920X1080 profile. I did create a custom profile, but it's not added to the SVRT info panel, therefore no smart rendering present. In conclusion, you need to buy the full version to see SVRT working (what a shame cyberlink!) I'm using m2ts files from my Canon HF-10 (1920X1080 - 17Mbps - 60i and 30p). I was sold with VideoStudio X2, but the infamous "blip bug" that you and Peter described here kills the deal. Do you think this bug can be fixed? Almost three months have passed from the first time somebody described this problem in their forums. In PowerDirector, is the bitrate in my files (17Mbps) an issue to get smart rendering working? Thanks again.