Burning AVCH Disks Please Help!!

[Larry Horwitz]

Glad to help Mike!

Since Peter Holzel and others have encountered a nasty bug in Corel Video Studio X2Pro which creates a short "blip" at the splice where clips, transitions, and some other effects are joined, a patch has been unofficially posted on a user forum which apparently solves the problem for some but not all users.

I repeat this posting with the caveat that this is both unofficial as well as (apparently) only a partial fix, since AVCHD files from some brands / models of camcorders may not work yet even if the patch is installed.

Here it is:



-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
ftp://private.ulead.com.tw/VSX2PROPATCH.exe
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



I am hoping that Peter continues to read this thread and downloads the patch. I am also curious to hear how his PS3 experiments have come out.

Please do not question me as to how this patch works, when it works, etc. I am merely a messenger here, trying to help other users.

Larry

[Mike Burgess]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

Glad to help Mike!

Since Peter Holzel and others have encountered a nasty bug in Corel Video Studio X2Pro which creates a short "blip" at the splice where clips, transitions, and some other effects are joined, a patch has been unofficially posted on a user forum which apparently solves the problem for some but not all users.

I repeat this posting with the caveat that this is both unofficial as well as (apparently) only a partial fix, since AVCHD files from some brands / models of camcorders may not work yet even if the patch is installed.

Here it is:



-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
ftp://private.ulead.com.tw/VSX2PROPATCH.exe
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



I am hoping that Peter continues to read this thread and downloads the patch. I am also curious to hear how his PS3 experiments have come out.

Please do not question me as to how this patch works, when it works, etc. I am merely a messenger here, trying to help other users.

Larry

For whatever reason, was unable to download. Thats OK since I don't own the program yet. By the time I get it, perhaps things will be OK.

Thanks Larry.

Mike

[Larry Horwitz]

Some firewalls and / or other security software prevents FTP transfers.

[Peter Holzel]

Mike, since you have a quad core, could you please take a look at the two files I produced using:
1) Power Director
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting

2) Nero then VSX2
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting

I am still struggling with why file 1 looks to me so much worse than file 2, whereas Larry claims the exact opposite. If my Pixela AVCHD looks fine on my computer, and my VSX2 AVCHD looks fine (except for the blips), and a clip straight from the flash card looks fine, then why doesn't my PD AVCHD look okay?

This weekend I will try playing the AVCHD disk I made with PD on my friend's PS3. When I play it on my computer, I still see the artifacts, so I will let you guys know if the PS3 produces artifacts. According to Larry's theory, it shouldn't.

[Larry Horwitz]

Peter,

I share your concern on this contradiction, and voiced the point to you originally earlier in this thread. It does not make sense to me that your original camcorder clip plays smoothly and without any jerky qualities yet the Cyberlink Power Director output clip doesn't.

Moreover, it doesn't make sense to me why your vintage 2006 AMD dual core machine with a relatively slow processor plays AVCHD so well. I have never been able to get AVCHD to play smoothly on any machines except those with fast processors, quadcores in particular.

Hopefully Mike has some more insights.

I think the cropped frame grabs I previously posted on this thread from your 2 clips demonstrated the observations I offered, and made very obvious the fact the the first Cyberlink output clip had plenty of detail down to an absolutely tiny (26 pixel wide) number sign on the front of a house with 3 digits, each only a few pixels wide, whereas the re-rendered clip had lost entirely the details and was lower resolution by a significant degree. Whether this truly explains what is going on with your system in playback is another matter. My theory continues to be that your older system will only play down-rezed / re-rendered AVCHD, and will run into problems with full 1920 by 1080 detailed video.

I find your first (Power Director) clip to play absolutely smoothly here with no jerkiness and with full details evident, whereas the 2nd clip with less details plays smoothly as well.


Let's see how Mike makes out.

Also, Peter have you tried the patch, and has it fixed your VX2 issue?

Larry

[Larry Horwitz]

Peter,

Being the obsessive detail lover, I once again downloaded your first file and played it several times. None of my players exhibit any jerkiness whatsoever. Like HDV and other AVCHD material I see during horizontal pans, there is some smearing, but this is true in the original content for any HD prosumer camcorder I have used or seen, and occurs in the raw original video as well. There is some evidence of handheld camera motion also occasionally, but I believe this to be entirely due to a lack of a tripod or stable camera positioning. I

I want to repeat an offer I made to you previously:

Tell me where in the 1 minute 29 second video you see the blocking / artifacting / effects such as you described earlier (in the sky, etc.) and I will do one or more frame grabs and send you the full 1920 by 1080 frames as captured by Nero Show Time or ArcSoft Total Media Theater or TMPGE Express 4.0 to show you exactly what I see here. As I previously mentioned, I went through the video slowly with TMPGE Express 4.0 frame by frame (GOP by GOP) and did not see ANY issues. I will be glad to share any or all of this with you.

Larry

[Mike Burgess]

Originally Posted by Peter Holzel

Mike, since you have a quad core, could you please take a look at the two files I produced using:
1) Power Director
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting

2) Nero then VSX2
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting

I am still struggling with why file 1 looks to me so much worse than file 2, whereas Larry claims the exact opposite. If my Pixela AVCHD looks fine on my computer, and my VSX2 AVCHD looks fine (except for the blips), and a clip straight from the flash card looks fine, then why doesn't my PD AVCHD look okay?

This weekend I will try playing the AVCHD disk I made with PD on my friend's PS3. When I play it on my computer, I still see the artifacts, so I will let you guys know if the PS3 produces artifacts. According to Larry's theory, it shouldn't.

Peter, I am working on it. Since I am doing the "free" download, it takes time. And then it seems that I have maxed out my download limit. So I have been unable so far to download the second file. From observing the first file, it looked pretty good to me. Will be able to tell you more once I am able to download the second file for observation.

May take some time; may not be able to finish answering you until some time tomorrow. Will try again later tonight though.

Mike

[Mike Burgess]

Well I downloaded both clips, and played them both with Nero. Both look relatively the same. They play smoothly with no jerkiness that I can see. Pixalation does not seem present; or whatever one may attribute to pixalation. There is some "wavering on the roof shingles for instance, and some fluxuation in the driveway stones as the shooter moves. I don't know if that is what one may call pixalation or not. Whatever problems exist, exist in both clips. Those problems I see are probably due to any of the following: CMOS, the efficiency (or lack thereof) of my computer monitor to accurately produce or show the clips, or shooter error (panning too fast).

I will revisit the clips later tomorrow and may burn them on a DVD to view on my Plasma.

Mike

[Mike Burgess]

Hey Larry, how long can you make an AVCHD presentation on a DL DVD before your AVCHD PQ begins to deteriorate? Of the two DVDs I have made (from different shoots) one turned out well with 118 minutes of video, while the other had to be edited down to 45 minutes before it looked as good. The first one was automatic best quality (something like that), while the second I picked 1440x1080 to make it as good as the first. Both were shot with the same camcorder, the SR11 on full automatic.

Thanks.
Mike

[Larry Horwitz]

Mike,

In theory, since a dual layer disk holds about 8 Gbytes, and most AVCHD camcorders (at their highest quality setting) encode at about 17 Mbits/sec, then you should be able to fit a little over an hour on a dual layer disk while preserving 100% of the original content / IQ.

Thiis theory has been borne out by my experience, with 2 exceptions:

1. The AVCHD format (unlike HDV) encodes using a variable bit rate. Therefore simple scenes and no panning or other motion creates a lower bit rate encoding than highly detailed / faster motion scenes. Theoretically you should be able to store a lot more than an hour if the content is simple, and indeed, this has also been my experience.

2. The playback method / equipment combined with the critical inspection by the viewer makes a huge difference. One person will call something "perfect" that another person calls "pretty good". Picture quality is, in this respect, judgemental, but there are truly scientific and accurate ways to measure it, seldom applied on forums of this type, but used extensively in optical and video engineering.
Thus, I personally consider an image quality degraded at a different level than somebody else might.

Let's take the details in Peter's sample clip as an example.

The house in the clip has a small sign to the left of the front door with the house number. Since it is only about 26 pixels wide (out of 1920 recorded), it is very difficult to discern with the naked eye. If you played back the video on a really good system with really careful inspection, you might see the digits individually, but you would have to strain to actually read them even with a magnified cropped image. All sorts of other really fine detail is in the clip, such as grass blades, roof shingle features, tree branch details, etc.

The more processing the clip gets, the worse this detail looks (with few exceptions). I am strongly opposed to re-encoding the video since it superimposes not one but two (or more) lossy processing steps onto the original video. I thus am always seeking a Smart Render option whenever possible. Therefore, downsampling the original video clip to fit more on a disk just does not appeal to me in any way whatsoever. Quicktime movies and Microsoft wmv files have their place, but not for my 1920 by 1080 content, thank you.......

Larry

[Peter Holzel]

Hi Guys,
I burned some items to disk and played them on the PS3 on a 720p HDTV.

1) AVCHD from Flash Card to PD, edited and burned to AVCHD disk on DVD-R.
2) AVCHD from Flash Card, smart rendered by Nero, edited and smart rendered by VSX2 and burned to AVCHD disk on DVD-R.
3) AVCHD from Flash Card, edited with Pixela, burned to disk using Nero.

My results were:
1) disk was not recognized by PS3, so I couldn't play it.
2) Obvious stutters throughout the video (which I didn't see when viewing the file on my computer-before burning to disk). This is the video that Larry sees the pixelation in on the house numbers. But Larry did not see stutters in in it. Stutters may have been introduced by the way that VSX2 burned it to disk.
3) Looks perfect. This is now my method of choice, which is a shame since Pixela is pretty slow when editing on my computer.

There must be more variables that I am not considering, as the results are very suprising (except for 3). I think I will stick with workflow 3, since it is pretty much guaranteed to work, and because I am becoming exasperated by all the seemingly infinite workflow options and all these odd results!

[Peter Holzel]

Larry, thanks for your offer to analyze the pixelation I am seeing. I don't remember the timing, but it was obvious when looking at the sky at any point throughout the video. However, given that I can't get the PD file to even play in a PS3, I think I will give up that workflow and stick with Pixela-Nero workflow.

[Larry Horwitz]

Peter,

I've been trying for the last half hour to send you a couple frame grabs but this website has a problem accepting any jpegs (or bmp's). I will send them as soon as this feature is working again, but right now the Upload attachments does not work as it did a few days ago.

I am entirely baffled by the fact that the PD disk does not play at all on the PS3 (perhaps old firmware on the PS3). My PS3 plays them beautifully. I have never tried your method 2, using first Nero to Smart Render and then once again Smart rendering it in Corel X2. These is also extremely bizzare as a workflow, and should not be required. I guess I will not comment that the disk stutters when played on a PS3 but haven't a clue what this approach could possibly offer. Since you have a working method in number 3, then I guess the obvious solution is to continue using method 3.......

Just for completeness, I have authored your PD clip onto a (Verbatim 16X) DVD-R and it plays absolutely fine on my PS3. I can only recommend that you check the version of PD to be sure you have 2.2.2.7c as mentioned earlier in this thread, and also see that the PS3 is up to date as well.

Regarding pixellation, I have never seen any pixellation in either of your video clips. The house number description / comparison was intended to demonstrate to you that the PD-rendered clip which Power Director Smart Rendered had preserved the original detail of the camcorder, showing "741" as a house number when inspected with a grabbed frame which was magnified versus the blurry and totally non-distinct, and not readable blob which comes out of using method 3.......... It was my point earlier and now that your system cannot handle full resolution 1920 by 1080, and only the significantly down-rezed and blurrier, lower resolution method 3 video plays on your computer due to its marginal speed.

Hope this has been of some value to you Peter. I will send the 2 screen captures as soon as this forum feature is working again.

Larry

[Larry Horwitz]

The full uncropped frame is here:

http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/1256389.bmp

Larry

[Larry Horwitz]

The cropped image below is an enlargement at 10X to show the detail which is preserved by Power Director (and other Smart Rendering programs as well).

Larry

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/1256411.jpg