What comes after AVCHD?

[Don Miller]

I believe the AVCHD spec tops out at 25mps. So what comes next? It would seem that the next standard will still be H.264 based. But H.264 will need a wrapper and specs.

[Perrone Ford]

AVC-Intra?

AVC-Intra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

10 bit, 4:2:2, intraframe. 50mbps, or 100mbps.

[Larry Horwitz]

Excellent reply but the Wiki citation seems a bit inconsistent. If this new format does indeed crank the bit rate up to 2x or 4x the rate of AVCHD, and only uses intraframe compression with no small P and B frames, how could it possibly be stored in one half the storage of HDV, as claimed?

Larry

[Perrone Ford]

I don't know how they are storing it, but I do know several cameras that are using it, and writing to P2 cards.

But then again, things like wavelet compression are amazing. Look at what it's doing for Cineform, and REDRAW.

I did a comparison the other day. I had 12 minutes of 1920x1080 footage. I rendered one as NTSC DV. I rendered the other as a Cineform 1280x720p .AVI file. The Cineform file was smaller. If that was an aquisition format, you'd be talking about putting 1080p into slightly more space than miniDV files.

[Larry Horwitz]

Wikipedia is misleading. The JVC ads and specifications make it more explicit for their AJ-HPX3000:

"With five 16 GB P2 cards installed, the AJ-HPX3000 camera records for up to 100 minutes in AVC-Intra 100 at 1080/24"

The correct comparison would be that this AVCHD Intra 100 camcorder will store 1 hour in 48 GB, whereas HDV (and MiniDV) requires about 13 GB/hr.

Larry

[Lorenzo Asso]

guys,

until a new algoritm won't be released, we will see, off course, the diffusion of h264 Intra, but the future will always h264 long gop interframe...i mean that we will see something like h264 100mbit long gop compression applied to a 4k resolution...since to satisfy 4k video by h264 intra you need at least a double bandwith compared with the efficience of long gop compression... (talking about "low" cost camcorder...while about the pro camcorder i think that RED it is a "revolution" and will change - or better is changing - many certitudes...).

ciao!

[Kevin Shaw]

The Canon 5D Mark II uses H.264 at 38.6 Mbps in a Quicktime wrapper, so there's one possibility. And Jim Jannard is promising elsewhere on this site that the upcoming Scarlett camera will be so astonishing some will call it a scam, so it will be interesting to see what that means.

There's an obvious product gap for an affordable HD video camera using medium-bandwidth recording (~50 Mbps) on standard high-end flash memory cards, and the technology to make such a camera has been staring us in the face for some time now. The Canon SLR mentioned above comes close and proves this can be done, so it's a wonder no one has quite filled this niche yet.

[Larry Horwitz]

I would imagine that Canon, Nikon, and others have considered the opportunity to add really excellent HD movie features to their DSLRS for some time now, but don't want to diminish their prosumer and professional camcorder sales. Hard to know what their marketing strategies truly are, but this would make some sense. Finally the Canon 5D and new Nikon are showing some true HD movie making capabilities.

Larry

[Steve Mullen]

During the conference, Ericsson mentioned its concept of a HD mobile phone in 2012." According to the concept, in the future, will be equipped with a 12- to 20-Mpixel camera and support full HD video shooting capability.

"We have an image of a mobile terminal equipped with digital camera and camcorder capabilities of the future," said Jonas Lundstedt, Ericsson's Director Portfolio Management, Product and Portfolio Management.

The terminal's display will have XGA resolution. And the operating frequency of the application processor will reach 1GHz, he said. As for its telecommunications functionality, Ericsson expects the device to support 100Mbps or faster LTE.

[Jeff Kellam]

Tokyo, Japan November 13, 2008–Sony Corporation today announced the commercialization of "IMX060PQ", a new type 1/2.5 CMOS image sensor "Exmor™" for use in camera enabled mobile phones that leverages Sony's proprietary formation technology to realize the industry's smallest unit cell size (1.4µm), and the industry's highest pixel count*1 (12.25 effective megapixel resolution). "IMX060PQ" is designed to meet the increasing need for advanced image quality within mobile phone enabled cameras. Sony also announced the launch of "IMX046PQ", a type 1/3.2 CMOS image sensor "Exmor™" with 8.11 effective megapixel resolution, and "IMX045PQ", a type 1/4 "Exmor™" CMOS image sensor featuring 5.15 effective megapixel resolution.

Furthermore, Sony will also commercialize "IU060F", a type 1/2.5 lens module with 12.25 effective megapixel resolution, and "IU046F", a type 1/3.2 lens module with 8.11 effective megapixels. Equipped with lens and auto focus functions, the two modules are the industry's smallest*1 and thinnest in their class, and with the launch of these products Sony will seek to enhance the enjoyment of taking high quality images using camera enabled mobile phones.

[Don Miller]

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

................ And Jim Jannard is promising elsewhere on this site that the upcoming Scarlett camera will be so astonishing some will call it a scam, so it will be interesting to see what that means.

........................

Well, I haven't heard 'scam'. Red has proven to be a reliable company, so I'm not sure why Jim thought he wouldn't be trusted.

Relating to this thread, did Red provide any supplemental info on storage technologies? I see there's a new Redcode planned, but I assume people already knew about that.

What I have a very hard time understanding is how Scarlet can be a DSLR replacement. I understand how high quality frame grabs will work in some situations. But we have 1/8000 shutter speeds and ISO 25600 today for under $3000. How does Scarlet get anywhere close to that next year?

Anyway, I don't want to wander too far off subject. Just that I believe what Red said, but I didn't here features that support a Digital Still and Motion Camera (or whatever it's called) definition. Storing huge single images is starting to seem trivial with 1TB drives costing just above $100 today. Will storing 100mbs vdeo be a big deal in a year?

[Jeff Kellam]

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

The Canon 5D Mark II uses H.264 at 38.6 Mbps in a Quicktime wrapper,...

Steve Mullen:

I read your response in the other thread about AVCHD playback and needing some CPU power.

What on earth is going to play back these mega CPU intensive files?

It's a good thing the i7 is released. I wonder what NLE they used to edit the Canon 5DII shorts we have seen?

This race is actually a good thing (unlike camera MP wars), it's paving the path quickly for the UHD format delivery system.

Jeff

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Don Miller

What I have a very hard time understanding is how Scarlet can be a DSLR replacement. I understand how high quality frame grabs will work in some situations. But we have 1/8000 shutter speeds and ISO 25600 today for under $3000. How does Scarlet get anywhere close to that next year?

Until the Canon arrived, in 2008, Scarlet sounded good. But, after looking at the pix of the Scarlet I can't see it being used beyond the "I want to make a movie!" crowd. By 2009 Canon will likely have a second generation version that is even better in the video dept. and cheaper.

So "consumer" camcorders may be caught between still cameras and phones.