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AVCHD Format Discussion
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Old March 29th, 2009, 08:03 AM   #76
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The new iris design is promising for smaller cameras. But I agree with J. Stephen that there needs to be at least global shutter sensors inside the machines to really avoid the rolling shutter artifacts for good.
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I wait for the day cost-efficient global shutter 60fps capable CMOS sensors emerge for use on major manufacturers' cameras. (Sony, Canon, etc.) Rolling Shutters are a plague.
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Old March 29th, 2009, 02:52 PM   #77
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The new iris seems to get overlooked, but I have been noticing that the bokeh seems to be more pleasing with the XR in shots where the backgound is out of focus - it's minor, but noticeable from the shots I've seen.

RS will cease to be a problem when the processing is fast enough to read the whole sensor array in one pass at a high enough speed to effectively shoot "frames", not half frames or partial frames without overheating or choking on the data stream. It'll likely happen sooner rather than later IMO. I've seen this sort of data "log jam" problem in other media in the past, and processor/memory/buffer speed eventually will solve the "problem".
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Old March 30th, 2009, 12:27 PM   #78
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Apparently iMovie has been patched to fix some of the combing artifacts I was seeing:
TidBITS Media Creation: iMovie '09 8.0.1 Update Brings More than Just Bug Fixes

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Old April 1st, 2009, 05:55 AM   #79
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My SR-12 played direct to any of my hd tvs look amazing the picture jumps out at you so vibrant and amazing sharpness better than i have seen from from any of my blu ray films or hd broadcasts,if these next generation cams [sony canon]are better will the tvs be up to showing it.
my edited results as yet do not quite match the camcorder played footage though.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 09:23 PM   #80
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Hfs10 No noise

I was confused when I saw these clips. They must have that hfs10 shooting on an auto mode. Or the camera person was very confused. I have zero noise on all my shots. If you let the AGC go wild it's not so good...But who uses AGC anyway..unless you really had to. Just wait for about one more week till everybody figures out how to work their Hfs10 then compare...I will post some clips soon.. I haven't seen image quality like this without spending an obscene amount of money...Just give it time and the cream will float to the top.
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Old April 8th, 2009, 07:00 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Martyn Hull View Post
My SR-12 played direct to any of my hd tvs look amazing the picture jumps out at you so vibrant and amazing sharpness better than i have seen from from any of my blu ray films or hd broadcasts,if these next generation cams [sony canon]are better will the tvs be up to showing it.
my edited results as yet do not quite match the camcorder played footage though.

Hi Martyn,
thought I would drop in a comment here as you have the SR12.I own the SR11 and I believe that what you are experiencing is the results of AVCHD compression.I too noticed a significant difference in the two i.e what I saw live to the LCD and what was captured.If you were able to record the uncompressed HDMI feed to a good codec then the image you see in live mode to your LCD would be the same after editing.
That is my area of interest and if you check out the captures I have done over the last few months below you will see that the degradation is indeed happening in the camera when it compresses to to AVCHD.When I capture to Cineform using a Blackmagic intensity,edit using Cineform and export to Cineform - there is no visual degradation at all and the picture is absolutley amazing.Of course what is uploaded to Vimeo is WMV so that loses some quality but the SR11 can produce a picture many times its value when recording HDMI output.

HDMI/Composite HD captures on Vimeo


I have also done some captures of the HFS10 using compsoite HD and the results are eye popping .

As an aside - for those who are pinning their hopes on the Panasonic TM300 for semi pro work.Please allow me to humbly express my opinion - let me just say I bought one a few weeks ago (one of the first to arrive in the UK) and I sent it back after playing with it for the afternoon.Very underwhelmed - I have never been so disappointed with a camera that promised so much.Build quality was so so.Low light was poor even though it is advertised as great.It had horrible grain the darker it got and when you turned up gain in the dark it went all plastic like.A bit like when you add a slight pastel look in Photoshop.I have seen this look on some other Panasonic professional cameras as well.To my eyes the SR11 had a better picture from a sharpness and detail perspective - hands down - oh and I mean live to the LCD so no codecs involved.Subjective but in my opinion true.In contrast the HFS10 has blown me away.There is a small downscaling issue I believe i.e when filming straight diagonal lines one can see pixels peep out - don't know how to explain it but the lines aren't perfectly clean and straight -I think it is called aliasing but even so it is amazing.The SGblade seems to lessen this artifact.I do miss the touch screen but can live without it.The SR11 has an amazing LCD and the Canon's is not as sharp or high resolution - but it is usable.I assume the XR5200 will be very good to.

In the end what did it for me was that the HSF10 had more resolving power,more manual control and 24p even if it is wrapped in a 60i stream (NTSC version from Japan) .Low light is a whisker better on the Sony no doubt but no progressive modes on the Sonys sealed the deal for me.I so wanted to stay with sony for digital cinema but I have now jumped ship to Canon and use that with the SGblade for my film stuff - the SR11 for PAL stuff.


Let me know your thoughts on the videos.Best wishes.
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Last edited by Henry Olonga; April 8th, 2009 at 07:43 AM.
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Old April 8th, 2009, 07:44 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Darrin McMillan View Post
I was confused when I saw these clips. They must have that hfs10 shooting on an auto mode. Or the camera person was very confused. I have zero noise on all my shots. If you let the AGC go wild it's not so good...But who uses AGC anyway..unless you really had to. Just wait for about one more week till everybody figures out how to work their Hfs10 then compare...I will post some clips soon.. I haven't seen image quality like this without spending an obscene amount of money...Just give it time and the cream will float to the top.
Couldn't agree more mate - this camera is the business for the price one pays
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Old April 8th, 2009, 11:37 AM   #83
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Henry I think Martin was referring to playback from the SR12 to his TV compared to his edited output. In this regard I agree with him that it is better than commercial product !!! In his case it is his editing rendering that is the issue not the AVCHD initial encoding. Any editing that does not use a smart encoder will re-encode the output and frankly I have found it better to then go to MPEG2 HD rather than poorer AVC encoders that are around at the moment not all of which are actually Bluray compliant.
I do agree however that the direct output to HDMI from the imager of the Sony's is likely very good and with a lossless encode at a higher data rate will be better than the current 16mbps limit of the Sony encoder.

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Old April 9th, 2009, 04:07 PM   #84
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Hi Ron,
Understood and I think we are on the same wavelength.Perhaps my emphasis is that the damage is done at acquisition.Anyhow as it turns out I agree with him whole heatedly that after editing the AVCHD files there is a noticeable difference between what is played live to the LCD and what is captured.Could be from the render codec of choice - I agree.In a nutshell I was proposing however that the difference he is noticing is perhaps due to the pounding that in-camera compression does to a wonderful image; of course not withstanding anything else that is a weak link in the post production chain.I have placed a direct comparison between simultaneous captures to AVCHD and also Cineform HDMI on my vimeo channel.Difference is noticeable.

I have converted my AVCHD files to the Cineform intermediate during editing.This has maintained any quality captured throughout my post workflow but found it always came up short compared to the initial live HDMI/Composite HD captures even if the final edit is rendered out to Cineform again.I am unashamedly a fan of Cineform as an acquisition format because the SR11/12 is amazing live out the HDMI/Composite HD port.I think that may be the difference that is being noticed but only Martyn can answer that.

I can say the same thing for the HFS10.Went out with the family today in London - looked amazing on the Camcorder LCD - got home - watched it on the 40 inch Bravia and slumped my shoulders.It's useable but then again ........Aww shucks well I have been spoilt with this HDMI capture business....just wish that Nanoflash were'nt so pricey.
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Old May 13th, 2009, 10:24 AM   #85
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One interesting thing that I've found (and I don't know why it's taken me so long to see this) is that there is much more 'headroom' built into the Sonys. By that I mean Canon is apparently using more in-camera sharpening than Sony.

It's easy to see the effect of this when I tinker with my Pioneer Kuro's sharpness control. With the Canon (HG21), raising sharpness just 2-3 clicks will bring about some ringing and edge enhancement. But with the XR, I can raise sharpness 8 clicks and still see no evidence of ringing or edge enhancement.

What this does is to allow you to raise the sharpness of your HDTV when playing the XR footage. This has a pretty dramatic impact on the apparent sharpness of the video and makes the Canon and Sony much closer in appearance with regard to sharpness.
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Old May 18th, 2009, 06:00 PM   #86
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First week with 520V

I am a bit late to this party but only found it in the last couple of days and then had to wait the weekend to get validated.

I went between the HFS10 and 520V for a good while and settled on the 520V. The creative-geek in me much favored the Canon, but with my wife being as much of a user of this particular camera as I, I went for the 520V. I'm waiting for Sony to update something like the A1 which I sold to get this one that is along the lines of the JVC HM100, but the 520V makes a lot of sense for the time being.

I put up a couple of first runs at the links below.

First few days of footage: First Footages ~ Sony HDR-XR520V on Vimeo

Smooth slow record montage: Sony HDR-XR520V ~ Smooth Slow Record Shots on Vimeo


-Michael
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Old May 19th, 2009, 12:46 PM   #87
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HDR-520V Stabilizatin Stress Test

I just posted a short example of my running backwards while filming. It has a clip with and without iMovie's own stabilizer processing.

Sony HDR-XR520V Stabilization Stress Test on Vimeo

-Michael
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Old May 19th, 2009, 04:57 PM   #88
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Just courious but what happens if you use both stabilizers?
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Old May 19th, 2009, 09:58 PM   #89
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Just courious but what happens if you use both stabilizers?
That's what you can see in action in that video. I have one part with just what the camera does on its own and then the same clip with the camera IS as well as some IS from iMovie 09's new stabilization processing.


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Old May 19th, 2009, 11:42 PM   #90
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Interesting - a lot of the frame is cut off using the iMovie stabilizer... but does seem to help a bit.

I'd think that a small bracket rig/homebuilt fig rig type device would smooth that out even more as well, but the new super OIS does an amazing job. I've run a few test runs with some of my stabilizing rigs, and am very happy with the results.
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