AVCHD -- new HD format from Sony & Panasonic

Jemore Santos · May 14th, 2006, 07:19 AM

I don't know if it would be the same codec because the panasonic codec is called AVC-Intra (i-frame based) and not AVCHD (this could be codec based)

Wayne Morellini · May 14th, 2006, 06:20 PM

So, it says the codec to be used in the HVX200 is AVC-intra, not just for the pro-camera Pana codec in general?

Jemore Santos · May 14th, 2006, 07:02 PM

http://home.nestor.minsk.by/computer...6/04/2402.html

This is one of the more detailed articles about AVC-Intra.

Dan Euritt · May 15th, 2006, 11:45 AM

there was a post last month from someone who claimed to be Steve Mahrer (Panasonic Broadcast)... i'm not going to put up the link, 'cause i don't know if that's kosher out here, but he said it was going to be the h.264 hi-10 profile, which is 10-bit 4:2:0... i believe that he inferred that it would be 50 Mbps?

he pointed out that since it has an intra frame structure, it will be a lot easier to encode/decode, which is contrary to some of the things that have been said out here about h.264.

he also stated that the panasonic booth at nab would be playing 16 Mbps h.264 on a 65" 1920x1080 plasma monitor... did anyone see that footage?

Chris Hurd · May 15th, 2006, 11:57 AM

Sure, you can post that link, but AVC-Intra is not the same thing as AVCHD.

Wayne Morellini · May 15th, 2006, 09:28 PM

Intra means that it compresses each frame separately, unlike the AVCHD which compresses across frames for motion and higher efficiency. Intra is less efficient, why they have higher data rates, but it is easier to edit and has more consistent quality under extreme scenes, where the higher efficiency of inter coding (AVCHD) can't compress highly complex unstatic scenes enough to fit into the smaller 19mb/s stream.

Sina Basy · May 15th, 2006, 09:32 PM

more on the AVCHD format!

http://lifestyle.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=5620

Mark Kubat · May 15th, 2006, 10:01 PM

This is a great article - wow - nice info - so any guesses then how much 1080/24p will fit on 1 DVD-R since they postulate it's 720p or 1080i that will be 12-20 minutes...???

I'm guessing from what they're saying it will be less - maybe 8 min?

Chris Hurd · May 15th, 2006, 10:16 PM

Yeah, sure appreciate you posting that link (and welcome to DV Info Net). That's probably the best of all the various AVCHD articles I've seen so far.

Yi Fong Yu · May 16th, 2006, 08:27 AM

will the quality be comparable or better than today's HDV codec?

Barry Green · May 16th, 2006, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yi Fong Yu

will the quality be comparable or better than today's HDV codec?

Quality should be substantially superior to today's HDV.

H.264 is generally twice as efficient as MPEG-2 at the same bitrate. So 18mbps H.264 should be equivalent to somewhere around 36mbps of MPEG-2; HDV only offers 19 or 25 megabits. AVC-HD offers the same 4:2:0 color sampling and the same 8-bit color depth, but it adds full-raster resolution, true 24p support, and more efficient encoding. AVC-HD is going to be the replacement for HDV.

Pierre Barberis · May 16th, 2006, 12:29 PM

IMO

1/ this format will be better exploited with HARD DISK DRIVES rather that DVDs....and i have some hints that this is what the next gen of ProSumer and Pro cams are going to have...

2/ independently of the Througput, the quality of the codec IMPLEMENTATION is key. As we already saw many times, due to the REAL TIME encoding situation, compliant compressed stream are often delivered, which are FAR WORSE than what can be achieved by an async encoder. ( For the worse, look at the sanyo encoder on HD1)... so we bettre see before elaborating on abstarc specs...

3/ AVCHD editing is going, IMOO, to be the key acceptance factor for this new format. Or will the guys at Cineform support this as just another input format for their wawelet encoder?

Yi Fong Yu · May 16th, 2006, 12:58 PM

will it take more processing to edit mpeg4's? my experience with divx/xvid playback (a mpeg4 variant) has been very pleasant and low CPU-intensive. much less than H.264 playback.

PS just like HD/BR disc format war, now us DV creators will face a codec war =(. i wonder if XL H1 can take advantage of the codec through SDI out.

Magnus Helander · May 16th, 2006, 01:02 PM

4:2:0 - the future looks pale... my grandpa's super-8 footage of myself
as toddler looks crisp and fresh compared to DV of my three year old son...

Barry Green · May 16th, 2006, 07:24 PM

There are two different systems under discussion here. What Panasonic has planned for their big cameras is an I-frame-only version of H.264, probably 10-bit 4:2:2, no GOP issues and no motion artifacting issues. They'll have an upgrade codec board available for the HPC2000 that will let it use this new H.264 format.

AVC-HD is something entirely different. That's the new consumer-oriented format designed to replace HDV; Sony plans to record it to mini-DVDs, Panasonic may also do mini-DVDs but they've announced that they'll record it to SD cards too. AVC-HD is an 8-bit, 4:2:0 codec (like HDV), but it's based on H.264 instead of MPEG-2 so it should be about twice as efficient at encoding; an 18-megabit stream of H.264 AVC-HD may be able to match 35 megabits of MPEG-2. AVC-HD also has a few more things going for it over HDV; it offers uncompressed audio, or Dolby 5.1 AC-3 audio recording, and it offers a native 24p mode in both 1080 and 720 resolutions, and it records the full raster. Sony and Panasonic both have eventual eyes towards recording AVC-HD on blu-ray discs, and apparently AVC-HD material will play on a blu-ray player. But blu-ray camcorders can't happen yet because affordable blu-ray isn't ready yet, so they're launching the format initially on mini-DVDR and on SD cards.

May 14th, 2006, 07:19 AM	#46
Jemore Santos Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Tokyo/Sydney Posts: 297	I don't know if it would be the same codec because the panasonic codec is called AVC-Intra (i-frame based) and not AVCHD (this could be codec based) __________________ "eyes through a digital world"

May 14th, 2006, 07:02 PM	#48
Jemore Santos Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Tokyo/Sydney Posts: 297	http://home.nestor.minsk.by/computer...6/04/2402.html This is one of the more detailed articles about AVC-Intra. __________________ "eyes through a digital world"

May 15th, 2006, 11:57 AM	#50
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Sure, you can post that link, but AVC-Intra is not the same thing as AVCHD. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

May 15th, 2006, 10:01 PM	#53
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	great find, thanks! This is a great article - wow - nice info - so any guesses then how much 1080/24p will fit on 1 DVD-R since they postulate it's 720p or 1080i that will be 12-20 minutes...??? I'm guessing from what they're saying it will be less - maybe 8 min?

May 15th, 2006, 10:16 PM	#54
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Yeah, sure appreciate you posting that link (and welcome to DV Info Net). That's probably the best of all the various AVCHD articles I've seen so far. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

May 14th, 2006, 06:20 PM	#47
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	So, it says the codec to be used in the HVX200 is AVC-intra, not just for the pro-camera Pana codec in general?

May 15th, 2006, 11:45 AM	#49
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	there was a post last month from someone who claimed to be Steve Mahrer (Panasonic Broadcast)... i'm not going to put up the link, 'cause i don't know if that's kosher out here, but he said it was going to be the h.264 hi-10 profile, which is 10-bit 4:2:0... i believe that he inferred that it would be 50 Mbps? he pointed out that since it has an intra frame structure, it will be a lot easier to encode/decode, which is contrary to some of the things that have been said out here about h.264. he also stated that the panasonic booth at nab would be playing 16 Mbps h.264 on a 65" 1920x1080 plasma monitor... did anyone see that footage?

May 15th, 2006, 09:28 PM	#51
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Intra means that it compresses each frame separately, unlike the AVCHD which compresses across frames for motion and higher efficiency. Intra is less efficient, why they have higher data rates, but it is easier to edit and has more consistent quality under extreme scenes, where the higher efficiency of inter coding (AVCHD) can't compress highly complex unstatic scenes enough to fit into the smaller 19mb/s stream.

May 15th, 2006, 09:32 PM	#52
Sina Basy Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: San Diego, Ca Posts: 37	more on the AVCHD format! http://lifestyle.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=5620

May 16th, 2006, 08:27 AM	#55
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	will the quality be comparable or better than today's HDV codec? __________________ bow wow wow

May 16th, 2006, 12:29 PM	#57
Pierre Barberis Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MANILA Philippines Posts: 117	IMO 1/ this format will be better exploited with HARD DISK DRIVES rather that DVDs....and i have some hints that this is what the next gen of ProSumer and Pro cams are going to have... 2/ independently of the Througput, the quality of the codec IMPLEMENTATION is key. As we already saw many times, due to the REAL TIME encoding situation, compliant compressed stream are often delivered, which are FAR WORSE than what can be achieved by an async encoder. ( For the worse, look at the sanyo encoder on HD1)... so we bettre see before elaborating on abstarc specs... 3/ AVCHD editing is going, IMOO, to be the key acceptance factor for this new format. Or will the guys at Cineform support this as just another input format for their wawelet encoder?

May 16th, 2006, 12:58 PM	#58
Yi Fong Yu Trustee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vulcan Posts: 1,564	will it take more processing to edit mpeg4's? my experience with divx/xvid playback (a mpeg4 variant) has been very pleasant and low CPU-intensive. much less than H.264 playback. PS just like HD/BR disc format war, now us DV creators will face a codec war =(. i wonder if XL H1 can take advantage of the codec through SDI out. __________________ bow wow wow

May 16th, 2006, 01:02 PM	#59
Magnus Helander Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Sweden Posts: 221	4:2:0 - the future looks pale... my grandpa's super-8 footage of myself as toddler looks crisp and fresh compared to DV of my three year old son... __________________ Magnus Helander, Crossmediageek on G+

May 16th, 2006, 07:24 PM	#60
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	There are two different systems under discussion here. What Panasonic has planned for their big cameras is an I-frame-only version of H.264, probably 10-bit 4:2:2, no GOP issues and no motion artifacting issues. They'll have an upgrade codec board available for the HPC2000 that will let it use this new H.264 format. AVC-HD is something entirely different. That's the new consumer-oriented format designed to replace HDV; Sony plans to record it to mini-DVDs, Panasonic may also do mini-DVDs but they've announced that they'll record it to SD cards too. AVC-HD is an 8-bit, 4:2:0 codec (like HDV), but it's based on H.264 instead of MPEG-2 so it should be about twice as efficient at encoding; an 18-megabit stream of H.264 AVC-HD may be able to match 35 megabits of MPEG-2. AVC-HD also has a few more things going for it over HDV; it offers uncompressed audio, or Dolby 5.1 AC-3 audio recording, and it offers a native 24p mode in both 1080 and 720 resolutions, and it records the full raster. Sony and Panasonic both have eventual eyes towards recording AVC-HD on blu-ray discs, and apparently AVC-HD material will play on a blu-ray player. But blu-ray camcorders can't happen yet because affordable blu-ray isn't ready yet, so they're launching the format initially on mini-DVDR and on SD cards.