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AVCHD Format Discussion
Inexpensive High Definition H.264 encoding to DVD, Hard Disc or SD Card.


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Old February 15th, 2007, 02:05 PM   #31
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle
Guy, I'm with Jerry on this one. As a developer of these tools, and working closely with a couple of NLE companies, it's the raw processing power required that is the main current challenge, plus some decode to timeline issues. The image quality on these camcorders is weak, no doubt, but that's not the format, it's the quality of the glass, imagers, encoders, and bitrates. As the bitrates rise, it gets easier, but it's still serious horsepower, even a dual quad AMD machine chokes.
Spot, your experience with the dual quad AMD machine pretty much confirms what I suspected and, wow, that is significant; that's huge.

That Tore Nordahl fellow is still predicting that there will be an "AG-HVX200-style" pro AVCHD model introduced at NAB.

If that rumor is confirmed, then perhaps the questions about image quality will subside.

But the decode to timeline issues you mention also seem significant to me.

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Old February 15th, 2007, 05:13 PM   #32
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I don't disagree that it will take a robust computer to edit AVCHD. I see now what you meant by 'proxies', Jerry. I read that as 'intermediates' instead of your meaning. No, as far as I know, Nero doesn't offer 'takes' or 'proxies'. I suppose Vegas will after they update it like Sony said they would.

At last NAB, Panasonic said they would offer camcorders with H.264 Intraframe at 50 Mbps this April. I presume that means using it on P2 camcorders since that makes sense...doubles the record time. The HVX200 is an obvious recipient.
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Old February 15th, 2007, 05:28 PM   #33
 
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As mentioned before, Vegas already allows for proxies/switchout, via plugins like GearShift.
For the short term, this is the only way that AVCHD will be easy to edit.

It'll be a huge achievement if Panasonic can make these camcorders fly; I'm not sure why they're using AVCHD if they're not taking advantage of the GOP structure; that's entirely what makes AVCHD what it is and the benefits AVCHD offers. Looking forward to seeing their results.
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Old March 1st, 2007, 03:46 AM   #34
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Agreed. Let's see a AVCHD camcorder with its max 24mb/s, a decent glass, pro features, etc.

As far as AVC intra 50mb/s goes, you probably won't see it available for HVX 200. It is reserved as an option for its higher end HPX models, which also record DVCProHD. It would be a nice space-saving option, but be advised the codec's 50mb/s is announced as 4:2:0 and 1440 x 1080i, unlike its higher quality AVC intra which is announced as 100 mb/s, 4:2:2 and true 1920 x 1080i. Also be advised that AVC intra is different than AVCHD.

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Old March 1st, 2007, 07:22 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by John Bosco Jr. View Post
Agreed. Let's see a AVCHD camcorder with its max 24mb/s, a decent glass, pro features, etc.

As far as AVC intra 50mb/s goes, you probably won't see it available for HVX 200. It is reserved as an option for its higher end HPX models, which also record DVCProHD. It would be a nice space-saving option, but be advised the codec's 50mb/s is announced as 4:2:0 and 1440 x 1080i, unlike its higher quality AVC intra which is announced as 100 mb/s, 4:2:2 and true 1920 x 1080i. Also be advised that AVC intra is different than AVCHD.

John
DVCPRO-HD was reserved for higher end full size cameras but if Panasonic was able to put DVCPRO-HD into the HVX200, then there is no reason why Panasonic wouldn’t put at least the 50 Mbps Intra codec into the successor. I bet they will also put in the 100Mbps version.
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Old March 2nd, 2007, 02:31 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post
DVCPRO-HD was reserved for higher end full size cameras but if Panasonic was able to put DVCPRO-HD into the HVX200, then there is no reason why Panasonic wouldn’t put at least the 50 Mbps Intra codec into the successor. I bet they will also put in the 100Mbps version.
They might, but they would have to redesign the camera to allow for the extra board. Most likely they would come out with a higher model, like an HVX250 or 300, adding a couple of grand to the price.
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Old March 2nd, 2007, 10:37 AM   #37
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Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you meant that these new codecs will never be in a HVX200 replacement. Yes, the camera as is, is not compatible.
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Old March 2nd, 2007, 05:46 PM   #38
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Anyone try this Camera yet?

I am interested in this camera and cosidering. I have seen good reviews on Amazon. I would like to know what you professionals think of this new technology. I am leaning between this camera or one of the small hard drive cameras that have come out recently.
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Old March 11th, 2007, 05:36 PM   #39
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I said earlier in this thread http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=88523 that I went to a pro video show and this is one of the camcorders that I tried out.

Well here is a hands-on expression and please note that Panasonic told me that it’s a preproduction model.






The first thing you’ll notice when you hold on to the camcorder is that it’s extremely light and doesn’t feel as bulky as the HV20 that I also tried at the show. It was hooked up to a 50” plasma display and I couldn’t believe how clear the picture quality is. Except for videotaping some shadows in the ceiling, there were no gain present at all and this was inside a college basketball court.

The high resolution LCD screen is just as impressive. At first when I saw the live picture feed on the TV I thought that the picture quality was so good that it was fed through HDMI and that it couldn’t be that clear once you tape something to the memory card. It ended up being hooked up to the TV through component and when they reviewed the footage that the people have shot, the picture quality was just as impressive. The camcorder literally through people off guard when they walked passed the TV being shocked that a camcorder this small produced a picture quality this good.

I did spend about an hour playing with it and the memory card that was inside the camcorder belong to one of the Panasonic representatives. I truly wish I had my own memory card because I would have been able to upload the footage to this site. I would have actually done a comparison shot with the HV20 and the AG-HSC1U videotaping the same thing but since I came unprepared, it never happened. Believe me, next time I go to an electronics show I will be bringing just about every type of blank media so I can show you guys the footage.

For an AVCHD camcorder that records at 13mbps, it’s incredibly but I earnestly couldn’t tell you if the picture quality is better than the HC7 or the HV20 during good lighting. Compared to my HC1 the motion looks better but then again the HC1 is not a fair comparison because the HC1 is known to having a roiling shutter meaning the motion looks better than the HC1 but compared to the HC7 or the HV20, I’m clueless. Based on lowlight capability alone, it looked a lot better than the HV20 but the HV20 wasn’t hooked up to a TV so I could only judge by looking at the HV20’s LCD screen.

I still can’t believe Panasonic decided to leave a focusing ring out. For anyone who is wondering, AG has nothing to do with professional. It’s just something that they use for industrial camcorders. Even the Panasonic representatives consider it a consumer camcorder. Anyway, If you have the money, I strongly advise you to pick up the AG-HSC1U instead of the HDC-SD1 because I believe it has a better decoder inside.






This hands-on impression is a bit unorganized but hopefully some of you got something out of it and like I said, it’s a preproduction unit so the final model may even be better, but as is, I couldn’t find anything wrong with the camcorder.

Last edited by Paulo Teixeira; March 11th, 2007 at 07:48 PM.
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Old March 13th, 2007, 01:19 AM   #40
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in regard to editing h.264/avchd, Sigma Designs have had a chipset which allows u realtime encoding/decoding..
In fact thatyve only recently reworked a chipset for standalone players to do just this (playback avchd/h.264), and the XCard (which is long in the tooth now) has had the old variation now for over 2 years..

it WILL be possible to edit h.264 or avchd in realtime, if and only if the NLE producers think laterally and tap into HW chipsets like the one from Sigma

with Software it may be possible to edit, however performance wise, im assuming that it will end up going in the same direction as HDV when it was first released

What i find difficult to understand is that with the technology of today, i would have thought we'd be working alot smarter, not harder... it seems that with all these "workarounds" were wasting time and money trying to delivery the goods as opposed to actually focussing on the work at hand..

These new formats are all good, but in the end, how much more work will be required??
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Old March 13th, 2007, 08:10 AM   #41
 
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Peter, there is a significant issue with NLE's tying to hardware that isn't standardized; what happens when the NLE bases on one chip, and that chip goes away? So then the challenge becomes standardizing certain aspects of the chip, which may or may not fall into budget constraints, or competition may drive similar chips that don't quite meet the spec (remember the early 1394 cards?) This leaves consumers in a bad way and leaves the NLE with a bad image.
It would be great if every vid card had a built in decoder that allowed the NLE to access and encode/decode from it, but then the above could also apply. My feeling is that if these decoder companies want it to really happen, they'll offer completed SDK's and even go farther by writing the drivers for all the popular specific applications. By example, if I'd like Ultimate S to work well in Premiere, I can't expect the Adobe team to write the code to make my product plug into theirs. I need to pay for the SDK and develop my plug to function in their tool so users can access the tools in that particular NLE.
I guess what I'm saying is that just because the tools are available, doesn't mean they're necessarily accessible nor is it perhaps the best global option.
Hopefully someone will exploit the technology, such as CineForm or other HDI.
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Old March 15th, 2007, 09:54 AM   #42
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So what do you guys think?

I should buy this cam?

I found out that the codec that comes with HD7 won't play in realtime on FCP. It needs rendering.

I sold all the other cams and only with HV10 right now. HD7 is not that expensive, I got to sell my Glidecam, so I can afford this.
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Old March 16th, 2007, 10:20 AM   #43
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You know what bugs me about this camera?

That they didn't include a 24P option. I know 24P means nothing to a bunch of folks, but it's something I would like. I know there are plenty of HDV cams with this option, but I was so excited to read 1080/24P as one of the specs for AVCHD, and no one has taken advantage of it yet. 24P on an SD card! Why didn't they include this? Somebody please release a camera that is capable of this.

I'm reading that Blu-Ray players are now being given AVCHD playback options, and I can just imagine how cool it would be to shoot 1080/24P burn it to a BluRay disc, and play it back on my 1080P lcd tv.

Honestly, I just don't see the point in this camera. For me that is.
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Old March 16th, 2007, 10:30 AM   #44
 
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Putting 24p in the hands of a consumer is just plain silly. They'll complain about stuttering, jerky motion, etc.
This camera is aimed at consumers, not prosumers, and certainly not pro's.
That's the point of the camcorder.
The format will grow. It's the "next big thing." It *can* host a 24p stream, should the manufacture decide to put it in. But 24p in a low cost, consumer accessible cam is a bad thing, not a good thing. I've said it at least a hundred times, "The DVX100 was responsible for more bad video than any other video camera" and it's not a comment on the camcorder. :-)
The bigger issue with AVCHD right now, is editing it.

As an aside, BD isn't "just now getting AVCHD options" but rather, it's always been there and is part of both BD and HD DVD spec.
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Old March 16th, 2007, 11:01 AM   #45
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DSE,

I will not generalize that it's silly to put 24p in a consumer camera. But Panasonic is marketing this as a pro camcorder.

To quote the Panasonic press release:
"Panasonic AG-HSC1U (3CCD AVCHD)
PANASONIC INTRODUCES AG-HSC1U, WORLD’S SMALLEST
PROFESSIONAL 3-CCD HIGH DEFINITION CAMCORDER"


And as both a film maker and a consumer, I want 24P. And would love to have it in the AVCHD format. I did say in my post "Honestly, I just don't see the point in this camera. For me that is."

Emphasis on "for me that is"

I am on a budget. If I could afford any $10,000.00 or less camera, I would buy a Panasonic HVX200 or a Sony HVR-V1U. But I can't. I can't even afford a Canon A1. The HV20 seems fun, but limited in the amount of control you have over the image.

This Panasonic gets announced, and I'm excited at the prospect of a "professional" AVCHD camera, for a price point I could take advantage of. But no 24P. As I said, I don't see the point of this camera FOR ME THAT IS. Panasonic calling it a Pro model is misleading. And I doubt run of the mill consumers will buy a $2000.00 camcorder.

And the last time I checked, the Sony HVR-V1U is also a camcorder, marketed as a pro version, and has a 24P option.
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