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AVCHD Format Discussion
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Old April 13th, 2007, 11:54 AM   #16
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I have a PS3 and have been playing raw m2t's and edited m2t's since it has been out of the box. It plays them off of standard data DVD's or off of a usb drive.

It will also play HD mp4's rendered from vegas with the main concept mp4 encoder.

It will not play half of the mp4 hd trailors from apple.com or even recognize them. When I load them in vegas to re-render to another media type vegas won't recognize the audio.
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Old April 13th, 2007, 12:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Atilano View Post
I have a PS3 and have been playing raw m2t's and edited m2t's since it has been out of the box. It plays them off of standard data DVD's or off of a usb drive.

It will also play HD mp4's rendered from vegas with the main concept mp4 encoder.

It will not play half of the mp4 hd trailors from apple.com or even recognize them. When I load them in vegas to re-render to another media type vegas won't recognize the audio.
Thanks for the info. I am coming from HDV footage (on a Sony FX1) and exporting from Final Cut Express (still on 3.0)

I have done a bit of research and I think I can make Quicktime re-export the H.264 ".mov" file as an MP4/H.264 and in theory that should work.

Found some other (more complex) tutorials also.
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Old April 13th, 2007, 03:07 PM   #18
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I bought the PS3 mainly to be able to play my HD home videos and picture slidshows in HD. and it is worth it just for that to me. But I cant wait for GTA4 .
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Old April 21st, 2007, 09:00 PM   #19
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Just incase some of you donít know it yet, the PS3ís firmware was just recently upgraded to 1.7.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 02:00 PM   #20
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Canon HG10 24p files?

Hi all,

I realize this thread has been stagnant for a while, but I recently purchased a Canon HG10 and I'm wondering if it's worth it for me to pick up a PS3 for playback. I don't have one yet and was wondering if someone who did would be willing to try some test files out on their PS3 for me.

Ideally, it would be someone who has a PS3 hooked to a true 1920x1080 display that supports true 1080p24, and someone who knows what all this means. The HG10 AVCHD 24p files are 24p frames telecined inside the 60i fields. I'd like to know if the PS3 can inverse telecine the progressive frames out of the stream correctly, and then whether it's capable of sending it out at a true 1080p24 rate.

Let me know and I'll whip something up.

Thanks!

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Old November 11th, 2007, 10:39 PM   #21
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I can verify that the PS3 does playback 24p files from this camcorder but my HD TV isnít 1920X1080. Sorry, itís the best I can do until I win the lottery and buy myself a Sony XBR4. That TV would be perfect for this test.

Last edited by Paulo Teixeira; November 12th, 2007 at 03:32 PM.
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Old November 12th, 2007, 10:15 PM   #22
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Thanks...

Paulo,

Thanks for the info. Based on your feedback and that of another forum member who contacted me privately, I feel comfortable that the PS3 will play these files back.

In fact, I went out and bought one yesterday, and I can now verify personally that it works (I got a "discontinued" PS3 60GB [the last one they had] for $400 after a $100 rebate from FYE - For Your Entertainment - at my local mall). Updated to latest firmware, 2.00, as well.

One thing that was confusing to me so I'll spell it out here in case it's messing with someone else's mind - I used HGBackup (comes with the cam) to get the files directly off the cams HDD and copied them exactly to a 2 GB SD card. When I put this card into the PS3 and went to video, chose SD and hit the X button to play, it told me something like "no titles" and wouldn't go any further. This had me head-scratching for a while, I tried a bunch of stuff, and finally figured out that I needed to hit the "option" button on the SD card (Triangle) and tell it to "Display all". Then the PS3 showed me the subdirectories. I treed into BDMV -> Stream and it showed me the .MTS files, which I could then play.

Now, I still don't know if the PS3 can display the 24p video to a 1920x1080p24 display because I don't have one, but I can verify that it certainly worked to my SDTV at 480i (I tested both 60i and 24p). When I get myself a component cable I can test 720p and 1080i, at least. And when I win the lottery (especially after my first foray into HDTV here with the HG10 and PS3), I'll pick up a nice 1920x1080p24 display and give it a proper run-through.

Thanks for listening...

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Old February 27th, 2008, 06:48 AM   #23
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PS3 24p playback when outputting 1080p

Has anyone tried having the PS3 play back 24p HG10 files while outputting 720p, 1080p24, 1080p60 to the TV?

Does it correctly do IVTC as when Mike tested with 480i output?

What I am looking to find out specifically is - When the PS3 is playing back 24p AVCHD files and is set to output 1080p to the TV (either 24p or 60p) whether it does so correctly (without jaggies, combing, tearing, etc that appear when the IVTC is not done right)

Mike verified that it correctly did IVTC when the PS3 was outputting 480i but I think that a test at 480i may not neccessarily mean that it does it correctly when outputting at 1080p (I guess a 720p test would be closer) which is what I want to find out.

Thanks.
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Old February 27th, 2008, 08:43 PM   #24
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The PS3 will playback AVCHD at 1080p24 to a supporting monitor. If the video stream is 24p contained within a 60i stream (as Canon 24F is), it's going to playback at 1080i60 unless you force 24p. Although you can do that, it's going to look like crap with an uneven motion cadence because the native stream contains repeat frame flags.

If you can strip the repeat flags and author at the native 24p, the PS3 will play it back properly. Good luck finding an authoring application that doesn't reinsert the repeat flags, which Ulead and Nero do.

To summarize, if you can author it to disk as 24p without the pulldown flags, the PS3 will playback the AVCHD disk at native 1080p24 to a supporting monitor. If you can't, you can still force the PS3 to playback in 1080p24 mode, but if the 24p is contained within a 29.97 stream it will look bad. You have to strip the repeat flags, and use an authoring app that doesn't reinsert them to make it work right.
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Old March 1st, 2008, 12:28 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
To summarize, if you can author it to disk as 24p without the pulldown flags, the PS3 will playback the AVCHD disk at native 1080p24 to a supporting monitor. If you can't, you can still force the PS3 to playback in 1080p24 mode, but if the 24p is contained within a 29.97 stream it will look bad. You have to strip the repeat flags, and use an authoring app that doesn't reinsert them to make it work right.
Hi Tom, I'm not sure I understand why I would need to author the files at all? I am looking to play back the raw M2TS/MTS files, not authored ones.

Currently when I play back raw HG10 files on a windows PC via windows media player to a PC monitor running at 60Hz (coreAVC v1.6 is installed and the deinterlace option is set to hardware because it does not have a deinterlacer off option) the files play back absolutely fine, no combing, jaggies, etc. What I understand is happening is that the 24p stream is being correctly pulled (i.e. correctly IVTC'd and deinterlaced) from the 1080i60 stream and then outputted in a 3:2 frame repeat cadence to the 60Hz monitor.

(Now there is probably some "judder" caused by the fact that the 24p frames are being repeated in a 2:3 cadence to be displayed on a 60Hz monitor but this judder is not really noticable to me and not of particular concern to me because the fix is simple - if the monitor was running at 48 or 72 or 96Hz instead of 60Hz then the frames would be repeated at a cadence of 2:2, 3:3, 4:4 respectively and judder would not be an issue).

So, if the raw files are 24p in a 1080i60 stream and yet they play fine on the PC without any authoring why would the PS3 not be able to do exactly the same when outputting 1080p60? or taking it one step further, let the PS3 output 1080p24 so it doesn't even have to do the 3:2 frame repeat (we can let the TV can handle that).

The question is whether the PS3 can -

1. deinterlace and IVTC the 60i stream correctly (no combing or jaggies) to get the original 24p stream and then
2. output it either at 1080p24 or after doing 3:2 frame repeat at 1080p60?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
The PS3 will playback AVCHD at 1080p24 to a supporting monitor. If the video stream is 24p contained within a 60i stream (as Canon 24F is), it's going to playback at 1080i60 unless you force 24p. Although you can do that, it's going to look like crap with an uneven motion cadence because the native stream contains repeat frame flags..
By "uneven motion cadence" do you mean "judder" caused by frames being repeated with a 3:2 cadence?

Thanks for Listening :)
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Old March 2nd, 2008, 11:40 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Amit Mantri View Post
The question is whether the PS3 can -

1. deinterlace and IVTC the 60i stream correctly (no combing or jaggies) to get the original 24p stream and then
2. output it either at 1080p24 or after doing 3:2 frame repeat at 1080p60?

The PS3 does not normally deinterlace 1080i. The exception is that you can force 24p/60p playback, but it judders if the stream has pulldown.

The PS3 does deinterlace 480i, just like any other progressive scan DVD player.

The PS3 will pass through true 24p as with a Hollywood movie, but not 24p from a Canon camcorder because the latter is carried inside a 1080i stream with pulldown.

It will still playback Canon 24F/P without jaggies or combing in 1080i mode, because the stream contains progressively encoded frames instead of 540 line fields.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 12:36 AM   #27
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The PS3 does not normally deinterlace 1080i. The exception is that you can force 24p/60p playback, but it judders if the stream has pulldown.
Yes, I am talking about forced 24p/60p playback. (Have you done this yourself?) In that case I am assuming the PS3 will "correctly" IVTC and deinterlace the 24p stream out of the 60i stream and the result will be combing/jaggies free (which I understand is normally caused by incorrect deinterlacing or rather more accurately - not IVTC'ing correctly before deinterlacing). By judder, if you are talking about uneven (3:2) frame repeat then that's not an issue I am bothered with especially when the PS3 outputs 24p to a 48Hz (2:2 frame repeat) or 72Hz (3:3) plasma TV that can accepts 24p.

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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
The PS3 will pass through true 24p as with a Hollywood movie, but not 24p from a Canon camcorder because the latter is carried inside a 1080i stream with pulldown.
I'm not expecting it to pass through 24p. I understand that that's only on 24p source material like Blu-ray disc, while the HG10 files are different in that they are 24p in 60i. Hence I am expecting (and hoping) that it IVTCs and deinterlaces to get that 24p stream.

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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
It will still playback Canon 24F/P without jaggies or combing in 1080i mode, because the stream contains progressively encoded frames instead of 540 line fields.
I would want to avoid having the PS3 output 1080i because the deinterlacers in most TVs fail to correctly detect the 3:2 cadence in 1080i film based material (see the '3:2 Tests' section in - http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1107hook2/ I assume the canon 24F in 60i stream is similar to how film based 24p material is TC'd into 60i in say a 'Discovery HD' 1080i broadcast). And so I would rather have the PS3 do the IVTC and deinterlacing assuming it can do it right. If it can't I would have to take my chances with the TV's deinterlacer but I don't have high hopes for that :)

Hence I was looking for people who have actually played back 24p HG10 files from the PS3 to a progressive display while (forced) outputting 720p, 1080p60, 1080p24....etc.

Paulo Teixeira mentioned he did play back 24p files....if you read this - what format were you outputting?
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Old March 4th, 2008, 08:49 AM   #28
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Yes, I am talking about forced 24p/60p playback. (Have you done this yourself?)
Yes I have done this. I would not comment if I had not. My TV accepts 1080p24/p60 directly.


Quote:
In that case I am assuming the PS3 will "correctly" IVTC and deinterlace the 24p stream out of the 60i stream and the result will be combing/jaggies free (which I understand is normally caused by incorrect deinterlacing or rather more accurately - not IVTC'ing correctly before deinterlacing). By judder, if you are talking about uneven (3:2) frame repeat then that's not an issue I am bothered with especially when the PS3 outputs 24p to a 48Hz (2:2 frame repeat) or 72Hz (3:3) plasma TV that can accepts 24p.
My observation of the PS3 24p forced output mode is that it does not correctly IVTC and deinterlace the 24p stream out of the 60i stream. It combs and jags in the forced 24p mode when playing 24p embedded within a 60i stream. I used the term judder loosely before, I'm sorry.


Quote:
I'm not expecting it to pass through 24p. I understand that that's only on 24p source material like Blu-ray disc, while the HG10 files are different in that they are 24p in 60i. Hence I am expecting (and hoping) that it IVTCs and deinterlaces to get that 24p stream.
DGPulldown.exe can strip the pulldown flags from the Canon 24p stream. It could be possible to play such a .m2t stream from a flash drive or hard drive with the PS3. Doing it that way, removes the deinterlacing processing from the PS3. I will try this.

Quote:
I would want to avoid having the PS3 output 1080i because the deinterlacers in most TVs fail to correctly detect the 3:2 cadence in 1080i film based material (see the '3:2 Tests' section in - http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1107hook2/ I assume the canon 24F in 60i stream is similar to how film based 24p material is TC'd into 60i in say a 'Discovery HD' 1080i broadcast). And so I would rather have the PS3 do the IVTC and deinterlacing assuming it can do it right. If it can't I would have to take my chances with the TV's deinterlacer but I don't have high hopes for that :)
That is true about the deinterlacers in many (but not all) TVs failing to correctly detect the 3:2 cadence. But my observation is that the PS3 does not correctly do the IVTC and deinterlacing. I have tried this, and it jags and combs, and has an irregular "beat" or pseudo (not 3:2) judder that can be observed when panning. In summary, it looks horrible. And there's nothing I did wrong. It was simply a native .m2t file played back by the PS3 in forced 24p to a TV that accepts native 1080p24 input.

Quote:
Hence I was looking for people who have actually played back 24p HG10 files from the PS3 to a progressive display while (forced) outputting 720p, 1080p60, 1080p24....etc.
I have done this (actually with the XH-A1) because I have the same goal in mind. The logical approach is to relieve the responsibility for IVTC and deinterlacing from the PS3, and encode to 24p without the pulldown, thus no deinterlacing would be required. This is very easy to do without rendering. The hurdle is authoring such a stream with affordable tools. I haven't found anything within my budget that authors native 24p to Blu-ray disk. But again, I think it is possible to test the concept by just removing the pulldown from the stream with DGPulldown.exe, and playing back the .m2t stream from a flash drive or the PS3's hard drive.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 09:42 AM   #29
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Just a clarification...

The PS3 does inverse telecine (IVTC) fine. In other words, it can pull up native 1080p24 to 1080i60.

What it doesn't do is reverse-pulldown the 1080i60 3:2 cadence to 1080p24 properly. It won't even try to do this unless you force 24p output mode.

Canon 24p is already IVTC'd to 1080i60. To make it playback properly from the PS3 in 24p output mode, the IVTC needs to be removed. Once that is done, it will not be necessary to "force" the PS3 into 1080p24 output mode. It will just switch to it by default as happens with a Blu-ray movie. (Of course the TV has to support 1080p24 inputs.)

There is confusion about Canon 24p because many NLE's report it as 23.976 frames/sec. Although true, the native stream is already IVTC'd to 29.97. The logical thing to do is to undo the IVTC (strip out the pulldown flags) so that the PS3 does not have to. That way, the PS3 will output 1080p24 by default and won't have to be forced, just as with a Blu-ray disk.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 08:46 PM   #30
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Amit, upon further review the PS3 appears to handle deinterlacing, inverse telecine and 3:2 pulldown/pullup with equal aplomb to my 50 inch 1080p Pioneer Elite plasma, which is one of the TVs on Gary Merson's list that deinterlaces and does 3:2 cadence properly. I basically can't see any difference between letting the TV deinterlace, versus letting the PS3 do it, and the same for 3:2.

24p still looks horrid to me, but I'm coming to the realization that I just suck with it. It needs to be shot very steady, on a tripod, which is counter to my mostly run 'n gun style.
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