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Old February 10th, 2007, 02:36 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Oakley
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Avid gets me bonkers. I've used it and I find it so incredibly limiting and flawed its amazing, this is what I mean:

1. extremely linear editing. I'd liken editing in avid as a computer simulation of editing on tape. all you do is mark I and O all day long and that gets to wearing thin. its a slow and wasteful way to work when there are better ways of doings.

2. you just can't grab and move clips around in the TL... at least not without changing tools, and living in fear of knocking stuff out of sync. this is never an issue in FCP. I find it simply unspeakable that audio and video of a single clip don't have explicit sync. they instead are not locked together. even iMovie has sync lock between A and V of a clip. You can turn this off in FCP if you want BTW, which I do use when mixing sometimes.

3. much more tool switching in avid than FCP for basic editing

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I don't want to start an Avid vs FCP thing here but simply would like to point out that all of these things are exceptionally easy and doable with Avid. A quick perusal of the Avid Help would certainly dispell any mis-perceptions about what the Avid interface is capable of, for example from the Help...

"Using Sync Lock
The sync lock feature allows you to maintain sync among several tracks while adding, moving, trimming, or removing frames in a sequence. For example, if you insert an edit into one track that is sync locked to a second track, the system automatically inserts filler in the second track to maintain sync between the two.

You activate sync locking by clicking the Sync Lock button in the Track Selector panel to display the Sync Lock icon. You can also switch all sync locks on or off by clicking the Sync Lock All button.

You can sync lock any number of tracks in any combination. The tracks do not require matching timecode or common sources, and can include multiple video tracks as well as audio tracks.

Sync locking affects entire tracks. This means that parallel segments in other sync-locked tracks are affected when you add, move, trim, or remove material anywhere in the sequence."

Quite simple when you are familiar with the interface.

I've heard from a few FCP converts that have come back to Avid that they found the FCP interface to be "cumbersome and clunky" and not something they could depend on in regard to consistenly finding media, not dropping frames, etc. To each his own.

My 2 cents
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Old February 10th, 2007, 02:38 PM   #32
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well, my advice is not to be learning something new while having a paying client, unless its a simple job. that said, there is a book called FCP for Avid editors. the version that came to me though was FCP V3, and I don't know if its been updated.

when I've done training, its usually been about a 5 day course. Don't let that scare you though, that goes from the basics to the advanced stuff like color correction, track mattes, and getting into al the corners of the app. I think that with about two days, you can have basic skills. I would also say its not a total ground up re-learn because FCP does many things the same or in a smiliar enough way its not going to take much to figure out. You can sit and mark I and O in fcp all day long if you like, and pretty much edit just like you would in avid, but its not the most effecient way to work. There are about a dozen keystrokes you need to learn in FCP to be reasonably effecient. So the best thing I can say is, and I think you know it already, if you don't try to edit in FCP the same way you do in avid, you're 1/2 way there.

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Old February 10th, 2007, 03:12 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Cerar
"Using Sync Lock
The sync lock feature allows you to maintain sync among several tracks while adding, moving, trimming, or removing frames in a sequence. For example, if you insert an edit into one track that is sync locked to a second track, the system automatically inserts filler in the second track to maintain sync between the two.

You activate sync locking by clicking the Sync Lock button in the Track Selector panel to display the Sync Lock icon. You can also switch all sync locks on or off by clicking the Sync Lock All button.
Sync locking affects entire tracks. This means that parallel segments in other sync-locked tracks are affected when you add, move, trim, or remove material anywhere in the sequence."
I'm quite familar with sync locks. its a bandaid to cover up the fact that if you place a clip into the TL which came in with sync sound, the clip itself has no sync lock between its matching A and V. there is no way to defend this huge short coming. sync locks are track based, not clip based. in avid you can't grab a video clip with sync sound and using only the mouse pick it up and move it somewhere else. its audio will stay put. I know you will next say you can do by doing.... but its not a single step of simply grabbing the clip and moving and everything goes for the ride - in sync.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Cerar
I've heard from a few FCP converts that have come back to Avid that they found the FCP interface to be "cumbersome and clunky" and not something they could depend on in regard to consistenly finding media, not dropping frames, etc. To each his own.
FCP dropping frames is no different than avid dropping frames - media through put from the drives is not up to par, the machine isn't configured right - mismatched drivers, OS, misconfigured hardware, trying to play media that requires a higher data rate than the drives will support, and any number of user errors, ect. I've found FCP in general be far less picky about this and Avid. Avid has far more specific specs on Avid software version and OS X version than FCP does. I'm not sure what you mean by "not finding media". if you mean relinking clips to files, it works ok. its not automagic like M100 had and which I think no other NLE has ever done as well, but certainly in V5.x its solid and works. as for FCP's find function for searching for a clip in a project, sometimes it works, sometimes not. Its not something I ever even use because I generally have things organized enough that I know where it is, or can find it fast enough by simply opening the right bin.

and don't get me wrong, if something better than FCP came along that gave me intergated masking, tracking, paint, maybe full 3D with camera, I'd dump FCP in a instant... provided it wasn't $100k

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Old February 10th, 2007, 04:36 PM   #34
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"its a bandaid to cover up the fact that if you place a clip into the TL which came in with sync sound, the clip itself has no sync lock between its matching A and V. there is no way to defend this huge short coming. sync locks are track based, not clip based. in avid you can't grab a video clip with sync sound and using only the mouse pick it up and move it somewhere else. its audio will stay put. "

Uh... no... you CAN lasso a segment with the mouse, and move it anywhere you want, and the audio goes with it. You WILL have to decide if you want the segment (that's what avid calls a clip once it's on a timeline) to OVERWRITE or INSERT where you place it. It can't read your mind. But the audio most definitely goes with it in synch.

But theres an assertion here, that working with a mouse is somehow 'better' or 'faster' than working with a keyboard or mouse/keyboard combination. Might be one thing for one person, something else for another. With AVID there's several ways to do things, either keyboard only, mouse only or combination.

Once you understand you don't edit in Avid the same way you do in FCP, you're half way there...
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Old February 10th, 2007, 06:17 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Oakley
I'm quite familar with sync locks. its a bandaid..... track based, not clip based. in avid you can't grab a video clip with sync sound and using only the mouse pick it up and move it somewhere else. its audio will stay put. I know you will next say you can do by doing.... but its not a single step of simply grabbing the clip and moving and everything goes for the ride - in sync.
Steve Oakley
Steve,

Maintaining sync in Avid is clip based and segment based. You can alt/option/ctrl/lasso drag in overwrite or segment, trim, head/tails all day in the timeline and not lose sync. How can someone who trains on Avid completely misinform everyone on Avid sync.? Hell, Avid can even Auto Sync clips. This has all reminded me why companies like Media 100, EMC2, IMIX, and a host of other edit platforms are extinct. (Media 100 is somewhere out there I guess) They didn't have a fool proof way of ensuring you don't loose your media. And if you're a producer with a multi million dollar feature film budget or me when I have an agency client spending 20k, the last thing you want to do is say OOOOPS, my sequence time line no longer links to the media. Now I'm not saying FCP has media management problems. I don't know because I'm not an FCP user. But in the end, there is a reason that Avid is in the big facilities. Media managment baby.

I'm keeping an eye out for FCP, it seems it has great bell & whistles. But, I was talking to a friend of mine who works for a Time Warner facility here and they have 2 older Media Composers and 2 new FCP's. On several occasions they've gone back to projects on on FCP's a few weeks old and the media (especially imported grfx) are unlinked. Now I don't know they may be doing something wrong. But he said (His opinion) FCP media management is currently too open for working in a networked facility with multiple projects and editors.

Now on Media Composer and Xpress Pro I can move my project and media from my desktop to my notebook to a facility with a Symphony Nitris and not lose a thing. I haven't lost one piece of media in 13 years. That is why all of the networks and large post facilities have Avid's. They have clients spending big bucks. Avid applies a defined media database OMF/MXF file structure to every piece of media. If something gets moved, it goes and scans (on app launch) for it and puts in back into the database. You would have to be a numskull to lose media (or sync for that matter) with Avid. And it's been that way since the beginning.

(Back to the original issue of the thread.)
My own reality check: Yes it is unfortunate that Avid doesn't support HDV1 24p yet and can be a hassle converting 24p to DNXHD. However, of all of the hundreds of issues when considering how I'm going to edit my next paying gig, I think that I can say with confidence to my clients, that my Avids are flexible and reliable and I will be able to finish any paying project on time and on budget. After all, this is how I make my living and hence I do sleep well at night.

But guys it doesn't do anyone any service to turn this into a FCP vs Avid thread. From what I can tell Apple has done a wonderful job of offering an easy to use affordable integrated software solution with great 3rd party support to a new generation of editors and someday I may be one of them . And Avid Media Composer/Xpress is a mature and proven enterprise class edit solution used by editors all over the globe.

I think there will always be room for both solutions.
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Old February 10th, 2007, 08:07 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Parks
Steve,
Maintaining sync in Avid is clip based and segment based. You can alt/option/ctrl/lasso drag in overwrite or segment, trim, head/tails all day in the timeline and not lose sync. How can someone who trains on Avid completely misinform everyone on Avid sync.? Hell, Avid can even Auto Sync clips.
David, please re-read my post - "I have trained dozens of avid editors to use FCP" I don't train on avid, but FCP. The last time I used avid professionally was 8 years ago and hated it. I did it because I got some work and thought it would lead to more work, but I grew to dislike it enough that I'd rather quit editing than have to use it. its editing tools were just too crude, and required too much fliping around of tools.


I have a current (legit) copy of Xpress and it does not have explicit clip sync. if you have not used another NLE, then you may not understand what I am talking about. In FCP, Prem, or other editors you can simply grab a AV clip in either the V or A section, and simply move it by click and drag with the arrow tool. Both pieces are locked together, period, unless you are in non-sync mode. no alt / opt / control /command / lasso. drag box required. you just click and drag the clip to where you want it. In FCP, add the option after you grab the clip and you do a insert edit. if you put down the option key before dragging a clip, you get a duplicate. very handy for titles or background clips.

in avid, you have to change tools, then hold down the modifiers, then make sure you grabbed everything, then move. in FCP its one step. and tell me, if you happen to miss selecting a clip because the clip does not have explict sync lock.... then what ? undo, grab the item you missed and move again, or move the piece you missed to where it needs to go ?

I've also seen examples of how sync locks split clips and fill with space, ect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Parks
And if you're a producer with a multi million dollar feature film budget or me when I have an agency client spending 20k, the last thing you want to do is say OOOOPS, my sequence time line no longer links to the media. Now I'm not saying FCP has media management problems. I don't know because I'm not an FCP user. But in the end, there is a reason that Avid is in the big facilities. Media managment baby.
FCP does not have problems loosing its media "by accident". the only way FCP looses its media is the same way avid does - you take a drive offline, its not connected, you move the project to another system and miss a file.
FCP has a pretty good abiltiy to relink media now and its not an issue. As a matter of fact, I now edit in FCP, send the project to the producer where they have a drive with matching media. they relink, make some suggestions or changes, send the file back to me where I continue on. BTW, they are not across town, but 1800 miles away from me.

=======
On several occasions they've gone back to projects on on FCP's a few weeks old and the media (especially imported grfx) are unlinked. Now I don't know they may be doing something wrong. But he said (His opinion) FCP media management is currently too open for working in a networked facility with multiple projects and editors.
=======

you can almost count they are doing something wrong with moving media around, or even taking it offline, or worse, trying to manually manage FCP media files. FCP in its current version does very well with most things.

===========

that said, I do wish FCP would automatically relink media as some other NLE's did and when using media manager with multiple timelines, it worked. its not perfect, but is anythhing ?

I think there will always be room for both solutions.

there is always room, the question is how will the market vote with its $

Steve Oakley
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Old February 10th, 2007, 09:01 PM   #37
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Basically what us Avid guys are saying is we like Avid better but are absolutely fed up with the company's attitude and lousy, slow, under par, ridiculous support for certain formats. Oh yes, let me also add, while I am at it, the refusal to allow third party hardware to work with Avid software is also maddening. Avid is simply an ARROGANT company that thinks that they will weather this FCP ambush by having a better and more established product. Well, this time, they might just be wrong...

On the other hand I am thinking that they might WANT us to move to FCP because they just don't want to further service this particular segment of the market. Too much hassle for too little money. The fact that they are pushing MC on the slightly higher end and Liquid on the low end would suggest exactly that. The days of AXP are numbered.
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Old February 10th, 2007, 10:19 PM   #38
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yes, let me also add, while I am at it, the refusal to allow third party hardware to work with Avid software is also maddening.

On the other hand I am thinking that they might WANT us to move to FCP because they just don't want to further service this particular segment of the market. Too much hassle for too little money. The fact that they are pushing MC on the slightly higher end and Liquid on the low end would suggest exactly that. The days of AXP are numbered.
You're right Jeri. If I could use a Black Magic card ($900)with Xpress vs. the $2500 Mojo SDI which is only standard def, I would be very happy. And I'm getting the same feeling too about servicing this market (Small boutique shops cannot afford 6 figure installs of Unity/Adrenaline/Nitris I/O boxes and network). Maybe NAB in April will force Avid to wake up. Stephen Noe said in a post back a few weeks ago that a forthcoming new version of Liquid looks very promising. We'll see.

Steve, I did misread your post and I'm sorry you had such a traumatic experience with Avid 8 years ago.
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Old February 10th, 2007, 11:15 PM   #39
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As a side note, I bought a demo VCR that had been used at 2006 NAB from a dealer somewhere in the mid south. I asked him how he (his company, he was working for a larger organization) got into the business of selling demos from shows. He said that he had been selling Avid only, but with the declining prices and the shrinking market, this didn't pay the bills anymore.

Perhaps there is a greater change happening that is not totally obvious yet at the high end market. But to paraphrase a former President, there may well be a trickle up effect.

Also, the bad taste that arrogance gives people seems creep in slowly, but then it has a long lasting effect.
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Old February 10th, 2007, 11:44 PM   #40
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"in avid, you have to change tools, then hold down the modifiers, then make sure you grabbed everything, then move. in FCP its one step."

That is simply. Not. True.

Lasoo the segment, left to right, then move it. It stays in synch. You don't NEED to press alt, control or anything else.

But lots of commands in FCP require CONTROLL click to make them happen, it's not a big deal.

If you're going to criticize the app, make sure you can use it... in EVERY variation.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 07:22 AM   #41
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I do enjoy cutting on an Avid, but this 24P nonsense is making my head explode. If it is not delivered in this next release, I may be done with Avid.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 08:29 AM   #42
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Absolutely. I suspect that an important - if not critical - issue for most of us here is the ability to work with HDV1 at any frame rate - particularly 24P and 25P. Although Avid do occasionally issue statements to the contrary, it is crystal clear from (lack of) action, not words, that HDV1 is not even close to being a priority in Avid product development.

We provide post facilities for external clients and we also produce our own stuff- some of which is shot on the HDxxx series of JVC cameras. We have the HDV1 issue with Avid, the general arrogance issue with Avid and the ridiculous price paradigm issue with Avid. We have to weigh these problems against our preference for the core application (yes, I've used lots of others on paying jobs, so I'm not all that blinkered) and the huge advantages of integration that using Avid brings - particularly here in the UK.

It's a tough situation because I'm not convinced there's a suitable alternative out there. FCP is probably the closest but that means a platform switch that we just aren't in a position to make right now. I have actually used FCP for paying work and I was impressed at the price/feature ratio but I'd rather cut on Avid any day of the week! I'm not sure I agree with those Avid criticisms above. There are simple ways to do nearly all those things. Avid is much more flexible than many people think. You can drag/drop etc with ease. I actually work much faster with keyboard shortcut controls anyway.

Are there any former Avid professionals out there who have made the switch to another PC-based NLE and are happy with the result?
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Old February 11th, 2007, 10:17 AM   #43
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INtegration is the big stumbling block to changeovers for large houses. It's much easier for a single suite shop to say "Well that's it, as soon as it's time to upgrade computers, we'll go with FCP, and be done with it." Since it's all done in house, it's easily done. But if youre moving in and out of broadcast suites, finishing suites, other post houses, working with HUGE files on networks with many suites co-producing... then it's a hard sell.

Yes, AVID is much faster to cut on with keystrokes than mouse movements, but that's neither here nor there, as you can also point and click/drag and drop for every action as well if that's your preference.

I really suspect there is some sort of 'political' or 'proprietary' stumbling block in place that no one inside is talking about. I don't have any reasons for assuming as much, except THIS - My wife is an intellectual property attorney. We live in Silicon Valley (close enough). It's not uncommon for all sorts of issues to arise between software/hardware companies that become stumbling blocks because of proprietary licensing or integration or other arcane/legal issues that prevent what SHOULD be a simple acquisition or integration from occurring. And no one is allowed to discuss it. That is SORT of what this smells like. Am I just whistling in the wind? Absolutely. It's just a wild guess on my part. But as others have pointed out, there shouldn't be any real 'technical' reason for not doing it, therefore the only reasons would be 'business'.

Occams razor.
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Old February 12th, 2007, 11:14 AM   #44
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Well Avid may be in all the big houses but that started along time back, I would say if final cut pro makes some big improvements this year and ends up in alot of the smaller facilities and maybe even in some larger ones it will be a big plus for them.
Remember everyone starts some where and with the growing maket in small buisness over the years and the newer improved tool's available to that market what's avid going to do as some of these smaller companys with with the new power in affordable tool's at hand start getting bigger and better. There are more in the playing field then ever before and those company's as they grow small or not will more than likely stay with the platform that took them there this is what avid should be concerned about.
Back in the day only big company's with big money could be on top in most cases, that's not the way it is today or will be in the future. Like I said as more of these smaller company's get bigger and take there platform's that have worked for them over the year's up the hill with them so shall the market for avid change.
Many say that avid may not see small business as a big profit or a place to invest for big returns, I say that would be a grave mistake on thier part this is a different arena than in the past all the small company's avid dogs in thier ingnorance in the present shall in my opinion come to haunt them in the future as these smaller companys grow and prosper. (just ask Spock)
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Old February 12th, 2007, 11:15 AM   #45
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The above is merely and opinion only time will tell
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