XL H1 with AvidExpress Pro Hd at DVinfo.net

Benjamin Richardson · February 21st, 2007, 08:18 PM

Right now I'm editing on Premiere Pro 2.0, and have been very disappointed with its performance and Product Quality. Editing HD you basically have to buy Cineform.

Avid still hasn't released support for 24F mode. Although they are now finally supporting 30F

I Have Adobe Production Studio Premium Bundle, so I'm wondering how well the rest of my programs will ingrate with Avid.

I know about the open timeline, and DNxHD codec, well I've read about it. I'd like your opinions on the two programs, and why else i might be interested in Avid.

P.S.-is it really the "industry standard" and is that that important?

Geoff Dills · February 25th, 2007, 09:52 AM

I can't speak to PPro (left Premiere at 6.5 and moved to Avid) but the strength of Avid over most other editing software is media management. But I have heard excellent things on PPro and the way it integrates with the other Adobe apps is touted very highly. I would suggest keep working with PPro and see if you can get acceptable results (should be doable). Avid, to me, is primarily interested in the big clients and offers the "cheap" versions for those users to do "offline" on their basic units and then move everything to a finishing platform (read expensive) for final post.

You say Avid supports 30f....where did you hear that? AFAIK, only 60i is supported in ExpressPro.

Benjamin Richardson · February 26th, 2007, 12:06 AM

Avid supporting 30F was in one of my avid newsletters (very recently), I'll see if i can find it again...

http://www.avid.com/community/indie/Canon_FactSheet.pdf

-there it is, i must have misread it, the 30F needs to be in a 59.94 project. My apologies.

Thanks for the feedback.

Geoff Dills · February 26th, 2007, 01:46 PM

No need to apologize...I'm thrilled to find out I could use 30F in 60i projects. Thanks for the nugget.

Christian Magnussen · February 27th, 2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Dills

the strength of Avid over most other editing software is media management. But I have heard excellent things on PPro and the way it integrates with the other Adobe apps is touted very highly.

Oh yes, Avid is "all" about media managment, its rock solid. The interface and learning curve is quite steep, but when into it you will be able to work FAST! Iæm pretty shure i edit almost 50% faster in Xpress than i did in Avid Liquid.

And with Avid it's very much the editing software does what it's supposed to do, an nothing else fancy, the impression I have is: Edit in xpress/composer, finish in Symphony and Protools, for the High end productions.

Although you have the AVX to add for example the Digital Film Tools effects or Magic bullet for use in Xpress.

I'm currently using Xpress Pro with Digital Film tools and magicbullet, and Sonic Dvdit/Adobe Encore for the dvd stuff and edit mostly DV.

The big problem with avid for us in europe is the lack of hd/framerate support in Xpress, no support for 720p25/50 yet

Benjamin Richardson · March 1st, 2007, 12:03 PM

That lack of frame rate support is why i haven't gotten it yet. Avid seems to be the only company that doesn't support the canon XL H1's 24F and 30F natively.

Forgive me if this question is a bit on the ignorant side, but what exactly is the difference of finishing on an Avid Nitris system for example rather than with express pro HD? Is it just for the final delivery format?

David Parks · March 1st, 2007, 09:20 PM

Quote: Forgive me if this question is a bit on the ignorant side, but what exactly is the difference of finishing on an Avid Nitris system for example rather than with express pro HD? Is it just for the final delivery format?
Benjamin,

Big big differences. Nitris is the I/O breakout system for Avid/DS and Symphony editors. The DS can handle DI files formats like DPX, Cineon, etc. and edit 2K and 4K files along with uncompressed HD, with real-time secondary CC. Basically you can edit in up to film resolution.

The Symphony can handle DPX files and multiple streams of uncompressed HD along with secondary color correction, lots of real-time support, etc.

Other than the fact these systems are turn-key and cost over $100k, Avid Xpress doesn't even begin fit the market for that level of finishing. You can however conform anything edited in Xpress in both Symphony and DS. Xpress has all of the keycode/film edge tracking to offline feature films and then conform on a DS. The main difference is Xpress Pro I/O can only handle the Mojo Break out device, which is Standard DEf. only. Of course HDV and DV via 1394 is also supported. There are a lot of other differences that I'm not covering. But NITRIS is the designation for the BOB that handles HD-SDI, SDI, Dual Link HD-SDI, 1394, component analog, etc.

Now that I've confused eyeryone.....who has $120k on them.

Benjamin Richardson · March 2nd, 2007, 01:06 AM

Thanks David, maybe I'll be editing on one of those systems one day.

Steve Benner · March 2nd, 2007, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Richardson

Thanks David, maybe I'll be editing on one of those systems one day.

You may want to look into the Media Composer Software Only Edition. Right in between the two, and if you chose to one day, you can add the Adrenaline Hardware.

http://www.avid.com/products/media-C...itor/index.asp

Of course, this would assume Avid having to add 24 Frame support from the HDV cameras (JVC owners are just as pissed off).

Benjamin Richardson · March 3rd, 2007, 12:45 PM

If they were to add 24F support...and I don't see why they haven't

Benjamin Richardson · March 3rd, 2007, 12:46 PM

Avid Media Composer is a VERY impressive program!

Richard Alvarez · March 3rd, 2007, 01:17 PM

MC is a very impressive program. A lot of people coming to AVID from other programs are frustrated by AVID's inability/unwillingness to incorporate feature sets that other NLE's have. The thing to remember is that AVID HAS every feature set you can imagine, and MORE... on it's high end systems. Migrating those features 'down' to XpressPro takes a LOT of pressue. They don't want to piss off the big 'houses' that have already spent money on the hardware solutions, and they don't want to lose clients to FCP in the small boutiques. It's a lose/lose proposition for them.

Now that systems are running so much faster than when AVID was 'invented', the legacy hardware systems are 'dragging down' the development of the software only systems. FCP, PREMIER and VEGAS don't have the legacy hardware systems to support, and in fact, farm the various hardware cards/converters out to third party vendors. The basic AVID SOFTWARE is the same, from Symphony all the way down to Xpress- only the 'features' are locked in the lower versions. (Or so I'm told by a hacker.)

AVID hears the complaints. I'm taking their relative silence at this point, as a 'damned if we do, damned if we don't ' answer. NAB will be a turning point, expect some major changes for everything from feature sets to the industry standard interface.

Lester Marston · March 3rd, 2007, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Magnussen

The interface and learning curve is quite steep, but when into it you will be able to work FAST!

I have often read this same comment but disagree wholeheartedly with it.

The learning curve is actually quite smooth and logical. The printed manuals included with Avid Xpress Pro HD are simple to follow and the user will be performing the basics of putting together a timeline confidently within a few hours, if that.

I use Avid professionally (broadcast television) and we have many students coming through our edit suites who have been editing on Premiere or myriad other NLE's and all say exactly the same thing when they see us perform the simplest edit actions (such as applying a standard dissolve), "is that all you have to do?".

Avid Prosumer software employs the same straightforward and logical workflow as its professional counterparts.

The most conspicuous shortcoming of Avid software (both Professional and Prosumer), for me, is it's limited capabilities when it comes to importing video files. It will import QT files and DV files directly but that's about it. If you plan on using MPEG's, VOB's, AVI's etc, you'll have to transcode them to a Quicktime file first. This limitation is truly frustrating but at least there's an easily accessible workaround.

cheers.

Christian Magnussen · March 4th, 2007, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lester Marston

I have often read this same comment but disagree wholeheartedly with it.

The learning curve is actually quite smooth and logical. The printed manuals included with Avid Xpress Pro HD are simple to follow and the user will be performing the basics of putting together a timeline confidently within a few hours, if that.

It's logical, yes, but for some the interface feel a bit intimidating. That was the case for me a few years ago and why I ended up with Pinnacle Liquid, before coming back to Xpress.

The only reason for me to consider anything else than Avid is the lack of framerate support in "EU mode" and the pricetag on MediaComposer why I'm using Xpress....

Peter Moretti · March 11th, 2007, 01:12 AM

I would LOVE some clarification on all this.

Is there a reasonable workaround for the fact that Avid Xpress Pro HD does not support Canon's 24F format? Does Media Composer support 24F (I know it's a much more expensive program, but I would qualify for the academic version--which is still $1K :()?

If not Avid, then what PC compatible NLE progs would you recommend for working with footage shoot at 24F with a Canon XH-A1?

THANKS VERY MUCH.

February 21st, 2007, 08:18 PM	#1
Benjamin Richardson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 143	XL H1 with AvidExpress Pro Hd Right now I'm editing on Premiere Pro 2.0, and have been very disappointed with its performance and Product Quality. Editing HD you basically have to buy Cineform. Avid still hasn't released support for 24F mode. Although they are now finally supporting 30F I Have Adobe Production Studio Premium Bundle, so I'm wondering how well the rest of my programs will ingrate with Avid. I know about the open timeline, and DNxHD codec, well I've read about it. I'd like your opinions on the two programs, and why else i might be interested in Avid. P.S.-is it really the "industry standard" and is that that important?

March 1st, 2007, 09:20 PM	#7
David Parks Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 789	Avid Nitris Quote: Forgive me if this question is a bit on the ignorant side, but what exactly is the difference of finishing on an Avid Nitris system for example rather than with express pro HD? Is it just for the final delivery format? Benjamin, Big big differences. Nitris is the I/O breakout system for Avid/DS and Symphony editors. The DS can handle DI files formats like DPX, Cineon, etc. and edit 2K and 4K files along with uncompressed HD, with real-time secondary CC. Basically you can edit in up to film resolution. The Symphony can handle DPX files and multiple streams of uncompressed HD along with secondary color correction, lots of real-time support, etc. Other than the fact these systems are turn-key and cost over $100k, Avid Xpress doesn't even begin fit the market for that level of finishing. You can however conform anything edited in Xpress in both Symphony and DS. Xpress has all of the keycode/film edge tracking to offline feature films and then conform on a DS. The main difference is Xpress Pro I/O can only handle the Mojo Break out device, which is Standard DEf. only. Of course HDV and DV via 1394 is also supported. There are a lot of other differences that I'm not covering. But NITRIS is the designation for the BOB that handles HD-SDI, SDI, Dual Link HD-SDI, 1394, component analog, etc. Now that I've confused eyeryone.....who has $120k on them. __________________ David Parks: DP/Editor: Jacobs Aerospace at NASA Johnson Space Center https://www.youtube.com/user/JacobsESCG

February 25th, 2007, 09:52 AM	#2
Geoff Dills Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 85	I can't speak to PPro (left Premiere at 6.5 and moved to Avid) but the strength of Avid over most other editing software is media management. But I have heard excellent things on PPro and the way it integrates with the other Adobe apps is touted very highly. I would suggest keep working with PPro and see if you can get acceptable results (should be doable). Avid, to me, is primarily interested in the big clients and offers the "cheap" versions for those users to do "offline" on their basic units and then move everything to a finishing platform (read expensive) for final post. You say Avid supports 30f....where did you hear that? AFAIK, only 60i is supported in ExpressPro.

February 26th, 2007, 12:06 AM	#3
Benjamin Richardson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 143	Avid supporting 30F was in one of my avid newsletters (very recently), I'll see if i can find it again... http://www.avid.com/community/indie/Canon_FactSheet.pdf -there it is, i must have misread it, the 30F needs to be in a 59.94 project. My apologies. Thanks for the feedback.

February 26th, 2007, 01:46 PM	#4
Geoff Dills Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 85	No need to apologize...I'm thrilled to find out I could use 30F in 60i projects. Thanks for the nugget.

March 1st, 2007, 12:03 PM	#6
Benjamin Richardson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 143	That lack of frame rate support is why i haven't gotten it yet. Avid seems to be the only company that doesn't support the canon XL H1's 24F and 30F natively. Forgive me if this question is a bit on the ignorant side, but what exactly is the difference of finishing on an Avid Nitris system for example rather than with express pro HD? Is it just for the final delivery format?

March 2nd, 2007, 01:06 AM	#8
Benjamin Richardson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 143	Thanks David, maybe I'll be editing on one of those systems one day.

March 3rd, 2007, 12:45 PM	#10
Benjamin Richardson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 143	If they were to add 24F support...and I don't see why they haven't

March 3rd, 2007, 12:46 PM	#11
Benjamin Richardson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 143	Avid Media Composer is a VERY impressive program!

March 3rd, 2007, 01:17 PM	#12
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	MC is a very impressive program. A lot of people coming to AVID from other programs are frustrated by AVID's inability/unwillingness to incorporate feature sets that other NLE's have. The thing to remember is that AVID HAS every feature set you can imagine, and MORE... on it's high end systems. Migrating those features 'down' to XpressPro takes a LOT of pressue. They don't want to piss off the big 'houses' that have already spent money on the hardware solutions, and they don't want to lose clients to FCP in the small boutiques. It's a lose/lose proposition for them. Now that systems are running so much faster than when AVID was 'invented', the legacy hardware systems are 'dragging down' the development of the software only systems. FCP, PREMIER and VEGAS don't have the legacy hardware systems to support, and in fact, farm the various hardware cards/converters out to third party vendors. The basic AVID SOFTWARE is the same, from Symphony all the way down to Xpress- only the 'features' are locked in the lower versions. (Or so I'm told by a hacker.) AVID hears the complaints. I'm taking their relative silence at this point, as a 'damned if we do, damned if we don't ' answer. NAB will be a turning point, expect some major changes for everything from feature sets to the industry standard interface.

March 11th, 2007, 01:12 AM	#15
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	I would LOVE some clarification on all this. Is there a reasonable workaround for the fact that Avid Xpress Pro HD does not support Canon's 24F format? Does Media Composer support 24F (I know it's a much more expensive program, but I would qualify for the academic version--which is still $1K :()? If not Avid, then what PC compatible NLE progs would you recommend for working with footage shoot at 24F with a Canon XH-A1? THANKS VERY MUCH.