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Jon Springer March 6th, 2007 10:56 AM

Avid Xpress Users?
 
I'm thinking of purchasing Avid Xpress Pro HD 5.5 to run on an HP workstation... does anyone here used Avid Xpress with the JVC HDV codec? I just wanted to make sure that this version of software is compatible with the codec and that it performs well in HD.

The PC is a HP xw8000 2 x 3.2GHz Xeon/2GB RAM/SCSI/Quadro FX3000. Thanks all.

Steve Benner March 6th, 2007 11:02 AM

Another chance for me to rant about Avid.

The company has NO Support for HDV 1 at all outside of VERY POOR support for HDV 30P. That's it. No 24/25/50/60P at all. Avid has been blatantly LYING for well over a year and half about when the support was coming.

Do not expect it in the next release of Avid either. Last we heard from the horrible liars is beginning of 07'. Still not here, nor will it be here with the Universal Binary 2.7 release. The whole situation is absurd. By FCP for Mac, or Canopus or Premiere for PC.

May Avid please prove me wrong.

The only option is to capture the raw .m2t in some third part program (or use a Firestore) and transcode it in MPEG Streamclip to DNxHD). This will work in Avid.

Jiri Bakala March 6th, 2007 11:27 AM

Let me add to Steve's rant; I am leaving the ProHD camp (HDV1) and Avid's total lack of support is partly to blame. There are other reasons, of course, but my painful experience with Avid was certainly not helping to keep me within the ranks of HDV1 users.

You have two choices; use other NLE or other cameras. Plain and simple.

Jon Springer March 6th, 2007 12:35 PM

Work-around...
 
Steve,

Is there a third party capture program that you would recommend to achieve this work-around? I assume it could exist side by side on the PC? The reason I prefer the Avid product is that I already own a Meridian system and need the project compatibility....that and I just can't stand the alternative NLE's (I was spoiled on an $120K Avid when I learned NL Editing). Thanks.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Benner (Post 636941)
Another chance for me to rant about Avid.

The company has NO Support for HDV 1 at all outside of VERY POOR support for HDV 30P. That's it. No 24/25/50/60P at all. Avid has been blatantly LYING for well over a year and half about when the support was coming.

Do not expect it in the next release of Avid either. Last we heard from the horrible liars is beginning of 07'. Still not here, nor will it be here with the Universal Binary 2.7 release. The whole situation is absurd. By FCP for Mac, or Canopus or Premiere for PC.

May Avid please prove me wrong.

The only option is to capture the raw .m2t in some third part program (or use a Firestore) and transcode it in MPEG Streamclip to DNxHD). This will work in Avid.


David Parks March 6th, 2007 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Springer (Post 636935)
I'm thinking of purchasing Avid Xpress Pro HD 5.5 to run on an HP workstation... does anyone here used Avid Xpress with the JVC HDV codec? I just wanted to make sure that this version of software is compatible with the codec and that it performs well in HD.

The PC is a HP xw8000 2 x 3.2GHz Xeon/2GB RAM/SCSI/Quadro FX3000. Thanks all.

Jon, In response to your original question, your HP workstation should work more than fine with editing HDV1 especially in DNX HD110 which is a very efficient and good looking codec. There is a 3rd party capture program called CapDVHS and used in conjunction with MPEG streamclip you can capture and convert 720/24p. However, you should be able to capture 720/30p directly into Avid Xpress Pro. Once you edit your sequence you will need the Mojo for real-time downconvert back to tape, (Betacam SP).

As you can tell, there is a lot frustration with Avid and the overall workflow on Xpress isn't near as straightforward as it should be. Another program that has good JVC HDV support is Avid Liquid. The pro version that comes with a breakout box is under $1,000, however you won't have the project/bin exchange with your Media Composer. But, I use a combined workflow Liquid/Xpress, (when I'm not on a super tight deadline). If i need to work fast in 24p I use Avid Liquid. Check this thread,

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=81159

Good Luck, David

Jiri Bakala March 6th, 2007 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Parks (Post 637022)
However, you should be able to capture 720/30p directly into Avid Xpress Pro. Once you edit your sequence you will need the Mojo for real-time downconvert back to tape, (Betacam SP).

David, yes, you can capture 720/30p directly via FW but Avid MOJO does not support HDV1 and it will not downconvert it to SD. In fact, it won't even provide client monitor, neither in a single field SD nor any other form. As far as I understand your described workflow will work with HDV2 material - in other words HDV 1080i - but there is no easy way of getting 720p out of Avid in SD.

On a recent project I ended up exporting the m2t stream back to tape and recapturing the tape back into a 30i SD project via downconversion through the JVC HD50 deck. But any type of colour correction or effects you are flying blindfolded using only your computer monitors. Avid will tell you that they have a full screen function but that is not good enough for CC. Pain, pain , pain.... what can I say.

Jon Springer March 6th, 2007 02:45 PM

David,

Thanks for your response. Is the Liquid interface/functionality similar to Media Composer? I'm just getting tired of re-adapting to different interfaces all the time. Also, I'm shooting alot of material with the M2 adapter and need to re-invert...I heard the Liquid can do this inversion without resolution loss...is this true, or is there a third party software involved?

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Parks (Post 637022)
Jon, In response to your original question, your HP workstation should work more than fine with editing HDV1 especially in DNX HD110 which is a very efficient and good looking codec. There is a 3rd party capture program called CapDVHS and used in conjunction with MPEG streamclip you can capture and convert 720/24p. However, you should be able to capture 720/30p directly into Avid Xpress Pro. Once you edit your sequence you will need the Mojo for real-time downconvert back to tape, (Betacam SP).

As you can tell, there is a lot frustration with Avid and the overall workflow on Xpress isn't near as straightforward as it should be. Another program that has good JVC HDV support is Avid Liquid. The pro version that comes with a breakout box is under $1,000, however you won't have the project/bin exchange with your Media Composer. But, I use a combined workflow Liquid/Xpress, (when I'm not on a super tight deadline). If i need to work fast in 24p I use Avid Liquid. Check this thread,

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=81159

Good Luck, David


David Parks March 6th, 2007 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala (Post 637061)
described workflow will work with HDV2 material - in other words HDV 1080i - but there is no easy way of getting 720p out of Avid in SD.

On a recent project I ended up exporting the m2t stream back to tape and recapturing the tape back into a 30i SD project via downconversion through the JVC HD50 deck. But any type of colour correction or effects you are flying blindfolded using only your computer monitors. Avid will tell you that they have a full screen function but that is not good enough for CC. Pain, pain , pain.... what can I say.

Jiri, This process works for me. Capture with 720/30 HDV Project preset. Once everything is captured, start a 30i project and then import the 720/30p bins into the 30i. Apply a 16:9 or 14:9 format to the timeline. (Scaling tools in Xpress suck 4:3 squeezes) You will have to do a transcode to layback without Mojo but it should work otherwise. I know the project tab in 1080i flips back and forth to 30i, but this is a workaround for 720/30. Try it if you get a chance.

Jon, Once you understand the symbols and nomenclature it works a little like MC, but the interface is much more ridgid. So it won't be an automatic "WOW this is like Media Composer. There is a Cineform capture tool called HDLink ($200). It has an auto M2 flip function when selected that will image flip upon capture that was developed specifically for the Red Rock Micro by the two companies. I'm not sure Liquid does this inversion upon capture.

Jon Springer March 8th, 2007 11:35 AM

Huh?
 
OK...everyone please forgive my ignorance. I looked at the Avid Xpress Pro interface and I saw an option for 720p / 23.### HDV. What am I missing here? Is it just the JVC codec it doesn't accept?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Benner (Post 636941)
Another chance for me to rant about Avid.

The company has NO Support for HDV 1 at all outside of VERY POOR support for HDV 30P. That's it. No 24/25/50/60P at all. Avid has been blatantly LYING for well over a year and half about when the support was coming.

Do not expect it in the next release of Avid either. Last we heard from the horrible liars is beginning of 07'. Still not here, nor will it be here with the Universal Binary 2.7 release. The whole situation is absurd. By FCP for Mac, or Canopus or Premiere for PC.

May Avid please prove me wrong.

The only option is to capture the raw .m2t in some third part program (or use a Firestore) and transcode it in MPEG Streamclip to DNxHD). This will work in Avid.


Steve Benner March 8th, 2007 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Springer (Post 638338)
OK...everyone please forgive my ignorance. I looked at the Avid Xpress Pro interface and I saw an option for 720p / 23.### HDV. What am I missing here? Is it just the JVC codec it doesn't accept?

I have the latest version of Xpress Pro (5.6.4) and there is NO 720/24P HDV option. There is a 720/23.976 option, but it does not include HDV. There is no other Camera in HDV that uses 720P at 24 frames besides the JVC and it DOES NOT work.

David Parks March 8th, 2007 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Benner (Post 638354)
I have the latest version of Xpress Pro (5.6.4) and there is NO 720/24P HDV option. There is a 720/23.976 option, but it does not include HDV. There is no other Camera in HDV that uses 720P at 24 frames besides the JVC and it DOES NOT work.

Jon,

Steve is absolutely 100% correct. There is not a preset for 720/24 HDV in Xpress or even Media Composer. The preset he is referring to will edit/capture DVCPro HD 720/24.

If you want to edit 720/24p HDV in Avid you have to convert it using MPEG Streamclip ($25 by the time you add Apple QT MPEG support) If you want to edit in HDV then that conversion converts with 3:2 pulldown to 720/30p and DNXHD 110. This process takes me around 1 min per 10 to 20 seconds of material. Not a very fast process. Then you set up a 720/30 HDV project and import the converted clips into a bin.

It's no doubt a pain getting everything into and out of Avid with HDV1.

Jon Springer March 8th, 2007 01:48 PM

Steve and David,

Thanks for the clarification. This whole thing is disheartening because I love Avid and I don't like FCP much at all. It seems to me that Avid is phasing the Xpress product. Also, someone said there is software that can make FCP function somewhat like an Avid, just in terms of the interface. Is this true?

Antony Michael Wilson March 8th, 2007 02:00 PM

Well, you can map keyboard shortcuts in FCP (a bit late coming, that feature ;) to mimic what you're used to on Avid but if you love Avid the only real solution is using another app like Liquid to capture and transcode or get hold of the Convergent Design HDConnect LE or SI or MI, depending on your needs. However, you'd need at least MC Adrenaline to capture HD SDI. If you're happy with SD, then the Mojo SDI will work with these boxes from HDV1 acquired footage. It'll look much better than if you shoot in DV and you can always conform the footage later once Avid supports HDV1 properly. Yeah, right...

I think it's more likely that we'll see a cheaper I/O board for MC and AXPro that features HD SDI I/O before we'll see full HDV1 support, so I'm going the Convergent route and finishing in uncompressed SD for now. Btw, those Convergent boxes are superb.

Jiri Bakala March 8th, 2007 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Parks (Post 637085)
Jiri, This process works for me. Capture with 720/30 HDV Project preset. Once everything is captured, start a 30i project and then import the 720/30p bins into the 30i. Apply a 16:9 or 14:9 format to the timeline. (Scaling tools in Xpress suck 4:3 squeezes) You will have to do a transcode to layback without Mojo but it should work otherwise. I know the project tab in 1080i flips back and forth to 30i, but this is a workaround for 720/30. Try it if you get a chance.

Thanks David, I will try it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antony Michael Wilson
I think it's more likely that we'll see a cheaper I/O board for MC and AXPro that features HD SDI I/O before we'll see full HDV1 support, so I'm going the Convergent route and finishing in uncompressed SD for now. Btw, those Convergent boxes are superb.

Tony, I will look at the Convergence route again. Just like Jon, I would prefer to stay with Avid but the frustrations that they put me (and everybody else) through sometimes gets to me and makes me seriously look at the 'dark side'.

Patrick Synnott March 9th, 2007 07:11 AM

Avid does not work with 720/30 capture from JVC GY-HD100 or 200 or BR-HD50 or have consistent import .m2t from the FS4ProHD.

I have been back and forth with Avid since June 2006 (Doug Hansel and Avid engineer) and also with Focus (since early January this year).

So both parties are aware of the problem - each without solution to date. I do NOT want a workaround.. why, because I shouldn't have to. Avid is meant to work with the JVC gear (NAB 2005 press release).

Focus and Avid work GREAT in OMF.. .m2t Avid reports issues:

http://www.avid.com/exchange/forums/thread/185043.aspx

http://www.avid.com/exchange/forums/thread/44259.aspx

- even attempting to capture without TC or control from the drive (using it as a deck) the video (within Avid and within a few moments of hitting capture) begins skipping. This is the same results when trying to capture from deck/camera.


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