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Old March 27th, 2007, 10:17 PM   #16
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for Steve

Steve this is the answer from an Avid customer service guy to MikeyMic that was really angry and got so many replies to his post. He is talking about HDV1 unless he does,nt know what he is talking for... that I think also is the case:

Hi MikeyMic,

* no support for 24p non-drop even tho avid claimed they would support the hd110 camera
* My project is a 24p ntsc project...is this the first problem? should i be cutting on a normal ntsc timeline?

IMHO the 720p format provided by both JVC and Panasonic is far superior and more flexible than any other format on the market today. Case in point: Most 720p cameras have a cinema like filter that provides for richer blacks and better depth of color and detail. The one caveat to this filter is that it is only available in progressive frame rates (24p, 23.98p, etc...). It sounds as though you've already shot your material at 24p and have noticed that your Xpress Pro 5.6.4 does not have a corresponding format/project type for your tape. Here is where the flexibility of the format comes into play.

With your camera/deck attached via firewire open a 720p/59.94 project. Set your deck configuration for camera/deck control* and open up the capture tool. One new feature to Xpress Pro 5.6.4 is the "Preserve Varicam Frames" button in the Capture Tool. The way this button operates is if the button is checked the Avid will disregard the 24 frame information on your tape and capture the full 60 frames instead. This results in gorgeous fluid motion without having to worry about the 24p pulldown cadense on the tape (more than likely the cause for your video jitter). Conversely if the button is not checked during capture the resulting video will playback at a little over twice real time speed. Michael Phillips has an excellent article about this on 24p.com (http://www.24p.com/VFR.htm).

Please note this form of capturing and all forms of HDV capturing are only supported through firewire. Which means no Mojo necessary.

This information is going under the assumption that you've shot HD 24p instead of SD 24p. If this is not the case please let us know.

* Deck control is iffy at best on decks they claim to support

What deck templates have you tried to come to this conclusion? Most often times deck control issues through firewire can be attributed to one file in your Avid DIO Runtime not being registered. There is a technote about this issue at the following URL.

http://www.avid.com/onlineSupport/su...contentID=7965

* audio output to deck is not functioning

So long as your deck configuration settings are properly set up to output to your deck there should be no discrepancy in audio output. Are you able to record video to your deck/camera? If so is your deck/camera set up to capture audio on a channel other than firewire?

* why can't i do rubber band edits on an hd timeline?

Make sure that Audio Auto Gain is selected from your fast menu in the lower left hand corner of your timeline. Once that has been checked you can use the N key to insert keyframes on your audio. If the N key is not working check out your Keyboard inside your Settings tab on your main project window to see which is your keyframe key. Once you have inserted a keyframe on your audio you can adjust it up and down or hold down the ctrl+alt do ajust from left to right. For more information on rubber banding open your help menu and run a search for "rubber banding".

* no video output unless you do digital cut (makes it impossible to do color correct)

I understand the need for a broadcast monitor for acurate color correction, however Avid does offer many tools within the color correction mode for waveform monitoring. For more information on how to enable these tools, run a search in your help menu for "waveform".

Although this will alleviate the need for digital cut it is not a 100% accurate way for HD color correction. Currently the only tools that will allow you to properly color correct HD in realtime with a client monitor is the Media Composer Adrenaline HD and the Symphony Nitris which offer HD SDI and HD Component outputs.

* this is sold as an hd system...why can't i output hdv in real time? why only ntsc?

HDV (not to be confused with HD or DVCPro HD) as a format is compressed in order to fit through the firewire pipeline. Once it has reached its destination (your drives) it is then uncompressed in order for you to use it. Since the file on your drives is uncompressed it can no longer fit through the pipeline it came in on. The process of compressing and sending out HDV material to your deck in realtime would utilize far to many resources for your computer to be functional while editing. Instead we have the option for "Output to HDV Device" once you're done cutting your HDV sequence. This option is available within the 1080i/59.94 HDV and 720p/29.97 HDV projects. NTSC SD footage such as DV25 is natively small enough to easily fit through the firewire pipeline without having to compress the signal and send it out.

Let us know if this has answered your questions and if you have any other questions. We are listening and are here to help.
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Old March 28th, 2007, 01:11 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panos Bournias View Post
He is talking about HDV1 unless he doesn't know what he is talking for... that I think also is the case:
I think he is talking about Varicam - DVCPRO HD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panos Bournias View Post
With your camera/deck attached via firewire open a 720p/59.94 project. Set your deck configuration for camera/deck control* and open up the capture tool. One new feature to Xpress Pro 5.6.4 is the "Preserve Varicam Frames" button in the Capture Tool. The way this button operates is if the button is checked the Avid will disregard the 24 frame information on your tape and capture the full 60 frames instead.
I just tried it. Recorder some test footage with HD100 in HDV 720/24p, set up AXP at 720p/59.94 project, opened the Capture Tool with HD50 deck connected via FW. I do have a machine control but as soon as I select the video track I get "Exception: PassThroughManager ::CreateVideoPassThroughInterface cannot create PassThroughInterface" (gee, can I get paid for creating incomprehensible error messages?).

Anyway, unless this error has something to do with some other problem, the above-described workflow doesn't seem to work. Somebody enlighten me, please...

BTW, my AXP is version 5.6.3 and it does have the Preserve Varicam Frames box in the Capture Tool.
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Old March 28th, 2007, 01:28 PM   #18
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Just to add to my quick test, I tried a couple other things:

-I created a 720p/23.976 project and received the same error message
-when using 720p/29.97 HDV project Avid gives different error message - the capture was stopped because of dropped frames. Well, we know that a 24fps video has some 'missing' files in 30fps DF project.

So, as far as I am concerned, we are exactly where we've been for the last year or so...
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Old March 28th, 2007, 05:38 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala View Post
Just to add to my quick test, I tried a couple other things:

-I created a 720p/23.976 project and received the same error message
-when using 720p/29.97 HDV project Avid gives different error message - the capture was stopped because of dropped frames. Well, we know that a 24fps video has some 'missing' files in 30fps DF project.

So, as far as I am concerned, we are exactly where we've been for the last year or so...
I mispoke and vs. Preserve Varicam Rates my version 5.5 checked as Preserve Varicam Frames as well. I don't think it is a new workaround in 5.7.
DVCPro and HDV aren't the same and the only option you have for capture through Firewire on those particular presets is DVCPro HD MXF. No HDV. You have to convert IEEE 1394 to HD SDI into an Adrernaline for this to possibly work.

Panos, this guy got our hopes up,
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Old March 28th, 2007, 07:08 PM   #20
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No way

The above post is a guide from avid customer support to a guy like us that was trying to digitize and edit 24p footage from a JVC GY HD100...
So, it is really confusing the way they describe a workflow that is ... not ment to work. Unless we miss something, anybody else?
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Old March 30th, 2007, 05:34 AM   #21
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How About Using DVMaker as Workaround?

http://dvfilm.com/maker/index.htm

DVFilm is a first class operation. Maybe this product it the answer to using cameras with usupported formats in Avid.

Essentially shoot in 60i and then have DVMaker convert it into 24P. The software is $145, and if it works like claimed, it could be a useful workaround, no?

Anyone trying this?
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Old March 30th, 2007, 12:05 PM   #22
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Peter,

MPEGstreamclip http://www.squared5.com/ is sort of the main conversion utilility that we JVC ProHD owners using Avid Xpress/Media Composer rely on to get around our 720/24p issues. It's free and you pay $25 to Apple to download the MPEG 2 QT component (A lot cheaper than $145). The other problem is that you really don't want to shoot interlaced then deinterlace to progressive. You lose a lot of quality and then what's the point of shooting with a progressive camera? With the above solution you can stay in progressive all throughout your workflow until you master.
The problem we have is that it is a render intensive time consuming process.
Image wise it works fine but we would rather digitize straight into Avid with a 720/24p HDV preset. It would save us time.

Cheers
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Old March 31st, 2007, 12:06 PM   #23
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Preserve Varicam Frame Mystery

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/HD...amcorders.html

Note the features of the HD 250. The HD SDI out of the camera works with Varicam Flags. I think that maybe this is what the guy from Avid was referring to, except he was wrong to say you can digitize with the Preserve Varicam Frame button through Firewire. So, if you have a 250 and Adrenaline
then it looks like you have a pretty efficient 24p workflow.

Maybe Avid will announce Mojo with HD SDI?
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Old April 1st, 2007, 04:35 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Moretti View Post
http://dvfilm.com/maker/index.htm

DVFilm is a first class operation. Maybe this product it the answer to using cameras with usupported formats in Avid.

Essentially shoot in 60i and then have DVMaker convert it into 24P. The software is $145, and if it works like claimed, it could be a useful workaround, no?

Anyone trying this?
Just wanted to reinforce what David already said. No point in having a progressive camera and shooting interlaced to deinterlace in post. It's like going back in time 5 years when we were all crazy to have a real progressive camera and using deinterlacing programs as a workaround. Now that we finally have progressive 24 frames per second cameras, shooting interlaced for deinterlacing in post makes no sense whatsoever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Parks View Post
Peter,

MPEGstreamclip http://www.squared5.com/ is sort of the main conversion utilility that we JVC ProHD owners using Avid Xpress/Media Composer rely on to get around our 720/24p issues. It's free and you pay $25 to Apple to download the MPEG 2 QT component (A lot cheaper than $145).
The problem we have is that it is a render intensive time consuming process.
Image wise it works fine but we would rather digitize straight into Avid with a 720/24p HDV preset. It would save us time.
Cheers
So much trouble, so many workarounds and compromises. And Why? If they don’t want to support us, just let Avid go. Why being loyal to a brand that is not caring about us?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Parks View Post
Maybe Avid will announce Mojo with HD SDI?
Or just get FCP instead of keep waiting for Avid’s charity.
That’s what I’m doing. Hate Macs but I’m going FCP soon.
And that’s how Avid is losing market to Apple everyday .
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Old April 1st, 2007, 11:11 AM   #25
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So much trouble, so many workarounds and compromises. And Why? If they don’t want to support us, just let Avid go. Why being loyal to a brand that is not caring about us?

.
Michael,

I hear you. I'm with you guys, but NAB convention is only 2 weeks away and I see a possible JVC 24p workflow on MC for myself in the future.

IF... Avid releases an affordable HD SDI injest solution or HDV1 FW injest.

I've got 13 years of use and money invested in Avid interface editing. That's why it appears that I'm stupidly and stubbornly loyal to Avid when in fact I'm willing to wait a measly 2 weeks in order to give it one more chance. But I'm not stupid if it doesn't work then it's time to change.

But my future decisions are basically this. I do have plans this year to upgrade my editing suite. If Avid at NAB presents a solution that allows HDV 24p straight dig into the app. with proper pulldown or an HD SDI injest that is affordable then I'm upgrading from AXP to Media Composer. Why? Well one I already have a PC and wouldn't have to buy a MAC Pro and two, I know that once you start editing in Avid Media Composer, it is a workhorse.

However, if Avid doesn't present a workable solution for JVC 24p, then I'm with all of you guys and I will take my money put aside for Media Composer and move on down the road and transition to FCP.

Cheers.
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Old April 1st, 2007, 11:55 AM   #26
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If Avid at NAB presents a solution that allows HDV 24p straight dig into the app. with proper pulldown or an HD SDI injest that is affordable then I'm upgrading from AXP to Media Composer.
So you'll believe them this year even if they are the same promises made two years ago? I ordered Final Cut as I think they're not interested in servicing this part of of the food chain and won't admit it.
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Old April 1st, 2007, 01:29 PM   #27
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However, if Avid doesn't present a workable solution for JVC 24p, then I'm with all of you guys and I will take my money put aside for Media Composer and move on down the road and transition to FCP.
I run a business. I cannot make emotional decisions. I will do what's best for my clients and my business. Even if a certain amount of trust has been broken.
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Old April 1st, 2007, 01:45 PM   #28
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I totally agree. That's why it's easy for me to dismiss Avid at this point in time based on their track record. Any promises they make now ring hollow as we've seen how well they keep their promises from the past. It's an easy, non-emotional decision to make the move to Final Cut which seems much more interested in servicing the market segment using HDV 1. It's a shame cause I did enjoy using Avid and will miss its rock solid media management tools.
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Old April 8th, 2007, 02:08 PM   #29
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Abandoning JVC

My workaround has been this:

No more JVC HD100... I had enough of trying to get this to work! ...now I shoot on Panasonic HVX200 & P2 (and plan to move to the 500 wen it is available). It is so simple to use and the quality is as good (I find both HVX200 & HD100 comparable). I know some have concerns around archiving and we have done this currently with DVD-R or HDD's (BluRay will be future of this tho)... it does take a little to get used to this idea of working...

I am also entrenched in Avid and don't want to re-invest in another platform/product.

So far we have been very successful in using 720p24 and 30. The P2 copies over quickly and is immediately available.

I now have no more worries about this, only about content!

Cheers
Paul
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Old April 8th, 2007, 07:30 PM   #30
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No more JVC HD100... I had enough of trying to get this to work!
Hi Paul,

with the JVC ProHD I have arrived to the same place as you. Except I haven't gotten any new camera yet. I am looking at a number of solutions - Red, Panasonic AG-HPX500, XDCAM HD and even HDV2 - in this case the Sony V1 camcorder. Its 24fps mode is not supported by Avid yet but if that happens by NAB, I might just go that route.

I am using Avid on a Mac and I am curious about the P2 workflow on that platform. Is that what you are doing... and if yes what do you use for ingest, the camera or did you get the P2 Store?

Jiri
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