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Old May 1st, 2006, 10:40 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Forman
The Mirror Mirror Universe is a cool idea, but Jason just redisoverd Enterprise. We all know how well that worked out. I was probably one of the few that enjoyed it.
Well, Enterprise was a good idea overall, but suffered from poor execution. It got better as it went on. The last season was actually very good, with the exception of the abominable final episode.
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Old May 1st, 2006, 10:48 AM   #47
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They only put half an effort into Enterprise, and it showed. When they got the word it would be cancelled, they rushed the finale... and again, it showed. It was pretty close to Roddenbery's vision though.
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Old May 1st, 2006, 01:36 PM   #48
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For me, it's all about the cool plots. . .forget about all the race wars and stuff. I just like the cool plots where some anomaly is discovered, and is all, like, cool and stuff. Next Gen was good at that. More of that. Yes. That's what I say. That's how I like my sci fi.
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Old May 1st, 2006, 03:36 PM   #49
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Trouble is, while naming something is more important than explaining it and real physics can take a running jump, star trek fans get really anal about trivial little details. They'll complain loudly about episodes that contradict meaningless asides in completely different series. That more or less puts to death any idea of reinventing it.

In any case the established way of redoing and improving on a previous plot is to redo it with a new captain and pretend the original never happened, as with a great many next generation episodes simply redid plotlines from the original series.

For me Enterprise failed because it pretended to be a prequal and wasn't. In every way other than a few minor tie ins it was just another stale sequal with a very rare few inspired episodes. DS9 did rather better because they stole much of the premise from the Babylon 5 proposal paramount rejected. That put the whole series on a totally different footing.
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Old May 1st, 2006, 03:48 PM   #50
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The main problem for me with Enterprise was how easy it all went. This is the
first time the human race is exploring space. The spaceship is flying smoothly
(when has complex technology ever worked reliably out of the gates!). The
transporter is brand new but just works as well. How nice.

If the human race ventures out into space like that a lot of bad stuff will
probably happen before everything runs smoothly. Advanced technology such
as a transporter will not be there (I think). True, they did a lot of shuttle flying
but it still felt too comfy to me most of the time.

I guess that's why I liked Deep Space 9 so much and I like Battlestar Galactica
(the current show) and 24. People we know and care about are put into harms
way and bad stuff happens. Especially with those latter shows.

Now that is not to say I need all the dark and bad stuff, but I guess it feels
more "real". I loved The Next Generation because of the good stories, so that
worked as well. I even liked a lot of Voyager, although it was definitely below
TNG & DS9 for my tastes.

The one thing I do not understand is TOS or "the obsession" with that era or
any other prequel idea. I did not grow up with TOS and I just can't watch it
in this day and age because of how it looks. I'm sorry. It may be teriffic story
telling but I just can't get over how it looks. That's another reason Enterprise
failed for me. I know how the TOS era looks and it the older Enterprise era looks
like it came after TOS. Sorry, but I'm just not buying that.

I also cannot imagine anyone playing Kirk, Spock, Sulu etc. Even if I never
really watched TOS. In my very humble opinion it is time to let go of that era
and move forward. It is like longing back to how things were in the past because
it was so great. It will never be like that again.

Now you might be able to pull of a mirror mirror thing because that kind of makes
it "new". But I'd rather see the future of what humanity will achieve. Perhaps
something like in Stargate where you can ascent to another plane of existence,
virtual reality (like Avalon or The Matrix), artificial intelligence societies (they've
touched on that briefly in general and as a villian with the Borg).

It feels to me they are trying to get a new success by doing things from the
past (literally) with Enterprise and now a new movie.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what will happen....
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Old May 1st, 2006, 03:49 PM   #51
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I almost wouldn't mind a series focused on the young Cadet Kirk, and his early adventures. Almost. Problem is, a series about a cadet would be dull. For a while, they were talking about Sulu's adventures as the Captain of the Excelsior.
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Old May 1st, 2006, 04:18 PM   #52
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Rob, I also found it funny wondering how they went from grey and dark toned uniforms to primary colors.

Unlike you I did grow up with TOS. Back with only 12 .. then 28 channels TV stations filled a lot of time with old television so even though I wasn't young enough to see Trek primetime, it was part of a lot of the TV I watched along with Outer Limits, Twilight Zone, Bonanza, The Wild Wild West, etc. So it was interesting at the time comparing the older shows including the black and white shows with the crap that was on prime time when I was growing up such as Airwolf, A-Team... Some really not so good stuff.

To me, watching Trek is almost like watching a theatrical production or listening to a radio serial. It is not modern style but much of it is still good. No one stands up in the audience and guffaws at the sword fighting in Macbeth. Kirk posturing is very stagey and I can accept that just like I can accept a guy in a lizard costume hurling a cardboard rock.

But like you I want any new Trek to go forward not backward.

There was one moment during The Next Generation when I was hoping they would take a gamble and turn their back on the past forever. That's when the Borg attacked the Earth. I kept hoping that the Picard would fail and the Earth would be destroyed. That would have been mind blowing for its time. There would have been no going back. The human race would have had to somehow persevere and rebuild elsewhere.

Wait a second. That's called BSG!
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Old May 6th, 2006, 08:31 PM   #53
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I've seen all the series, I watched TOS as reruns in the 70s and my favorite is DS9 hands down. Babylon 5 was a close second. Best writing, best ensemble cast.

Voyager was the beginning of the end. Just all around bad writing and rediculous plots with a tepid series finally. Good acting won't make up for a lousy script.

The plots on Enterprise, esepcially the season where the aliens sent a 'test' weapon against earth to see if it worked, were awful. I mean an advanced civilization tests it's weapons against it's intended victoms instead of picking some uninhabited planet, and gives away it's hand. Right, sure...insulted everyones intelligence. Showed the producers utter contempt for it's audience. The whole Tpol trip romance thing


As far as I'm concerned what destroyed the franchise was/is many of the fans who turned themwselves into some sort of high priests of the Star Trek universe. When I went to my fist and only convention at Vegas last year, fan after fan got up and complained about the post TNG series dystopian outlook. They literally wanted hippies in space. Crud.

I suggested to some we try making a fan film based around Section 31 shown in the DS9 series. You could really take some chances, while staying whithin the canon. The insults I got emailed were amazing.

After 30 years I no longer consider myself a trek fan because of both Paramount and the fans themselves. Similar thing happened with New Genesis Evangelion. Enough is enough.
Dont' care about the new movie since I won't be going to see it.
Okay, rant off.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 11:05 PM   #54
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I don't care what all of you say. . .I like Voyager. A lot. I defecate upon all of you who don't. So *poop* *poop* *poop*, go I, as I defecate upon you. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe everyone else is right, but I still like it. So there. Poo on you.
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Old May 7th, 2006, 12:12 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Bass
I don't care what all of you say. . .I like Voyager. A lot. I defecate upon all of you who don't. So *poop* *poop* *poop*, go I, as I defecate upon you. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe everyone else is right, but I still like it. So there. Poo on you.
You're just having fantasies about Jerry Ryan aren't you? Admit it. We all did, just admit it Josh. Still couldn't make up for bad writing.

On the other hand, I've been impressed with the production qualities of newvoyages. Hidden frontiers is getting better with each season as CG and keying improves.
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Old May 7th, 2006, 12:56 AM   #56
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Nope. I really did like it. It had a few weak episodes, but I thought of it as the "next next generation." I had this discussion in another thread already, so let's just say that I, as I often do, have the unpopular opinion here.


I'm gonna subscribe to one o' them fancy mail order video services and get me them Babylon 5 DVDs at some point. 'Cause I was into that show too, from what little I saw of it.
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Old May 7th, 2006, 05:02 AM   #57
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Babylon 5 - now that was great sci-fi - and DS9.
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Old May 7th, 2006, 05:55 AM   #58
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Usually I have trouble finding other people who really liked DS9, guess there are
plenty here. Good! I also liked Voyager, but not as much as I did DS9 or TNG.

Speaking of TNG. I recently ordered the Timetravel DVD box. Watched the
series finale last night and must say it was a pretty nice way to end the
series. It could've been better, but at least the focus was on the characters
and not on something else (Enterprise especially and Voyager's ending as well,
yikes).

Why did I buy that box instead of the regular seasons? Money and quality. I've
got two seasons boxes here at home. DS9 season 1 and TNG season 3. It's
unbelievable how bad they look on DVD. It is definitely a straight dump from
some (analog?) tape format. I can't believe this is the quality they are giving
the fans, especially for the absurdly high prices.

The extras on the boxes are far below my expectations as well. Yes, it is pretty
good compared to everything else Star Trek on DVD. Compare the Star Wars
movie DVD's to the Star Trek ones. Now those discs have extras.

They should have tons and tons of material on the TV series. I want to really
go behind the scenes on DS9. I want to see the awesome sets inside and out.
Why can't we have a Voyager bridge tour or something.

The Timetravel box I got is of the same bad quality. I would really like to own
TNG, DS9 & Voyager series on DVD (or whatever format). But that won't
happen until they restore it and it looks awesome.

I've also been to the Star Trek Experience in Vegas which was okay, but
nothing special. As with everything Star Trek / Paramount it feels like a let
down. The easy way out. Just to make money. Why isn't the TNG bridge there
in it's full and original glory, even if it is behind glass. And of course you can't
take any photos of the "fake" ones (yes, there are two there). Sigh.

Then there is the Paramount studio tour. We didn't even had a mention of
Star Trek on that one (not even in the history of the studio the tourguide
gave us) until someone asked. We went to the costume department and again
no Star Trek uniforms to be found. When asked the guy simply said that all
Star Trek stuff was somewhere else, he didn't know.

I talked to another Trek "fan" on the tour and said, why aren't they putting up
DS9 ops and the Voyager bridge (they've got them stowed away somewhere)
in some warehouse behind glass so people can see those amazing sets. That
would get them a lot of fans visits and again money.

It all feels like they are taking the easy / cheap way out whenever they can.
I guess I'm done with that. I just hope any new stuff gets the attention it
deserves. I won't be holding my breath though...
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Old May 7th, 2006, 09:24 AM   #59
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I very much like DS9 as well. I didn't watch it 'til around the last season or two when it was on, always telling myself I would start watching when "This whole war/dominion storyline is over" (not realizing that the was the entire series), and I started to catch up on the insane backstory through reruns, and then got into it. I have a friend who dismisses it as a "soap opera in space" (and he's right, to a degree), but that's good stuff there.


P.S. I met Brent Spiner once. I won't tell you where. He was cool, but I get the impression he's an ass in real life. Mostly 'cause of the documenatry "Trekkies."
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Old May 7th, 2006, 09:51 AM   #60
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The war with the Dominion didn't start until the end of season 5 (if I remember
it correctly). Of course the whole dominion thing started way earlier (first
introduced in the season 2 finale), but I wouldn't say the series was just
about that. For example, much of season 3 was about something else:

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/vie....html?season=3

I didn't see this before, but startrek.com announced the new film as well:

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/vie...cle/15891.html

Joe: have you finished the section 31 script yet? If so we can start making it :)
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