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BlackMagic Cinema Camera
EF & MFT lens mount / 2.5K CinemaDNG RAW


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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:22 AM   #46
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

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1. 16mm sensor design - Most people with low budgets switched to DSLRs for the FF and Super 35-like DOF characteristics. If that is the case, the T3i and GH2 offer more value for money, doesn't it?
I guess it depends on how you define 'value for the money'. They are both certainly cheaper, but you're getting significantly better quality just in terms of the compression options. You also get software that purchased on it's own would cost more than either of those cameras. You won't get the super shallow DOF (except maybe with specialty lenses like the Noktor) but you do have the ability to get shallow-enough DOF if you want to. It's still a significantly larger sensor than any traditional video camera format.

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2. Poor audio connectivity - The BlackMagic website harps on about how quality cannot be compromised, and yet they compromise on one-half of any production's quality - it's audio. I for one would have welcomed a couple of XLR inputs for an additional $1K. Why did they overlook this fact?
They didn't - it includes balanced, mic/line switchable 1/4" audio inputs. XLR probably didn't fit into the form factor well, and you can still connect them with a simple adapter cable without any loss in quality. Doesn't mention phantom power at all though.

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6. If the sensor is only 16mm, why is the mount specifically EF? What's the point? By having smaller mounts one can technically use lighter glass to reduce the effect of the poor form factor. Is this going to be a future upgrade/downgrade?
Because there are far, far more EF mount lenses out there than any smaller format... and it's easy to adapt most other mounts to it. I'm sure they'll consider other mounts in the future as the camera takes off, but considering the market this is targeted at it's likely many purchasers will use it with the Canon lenses they are currently using with their DSLRs.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:56 AM   #47
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

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Originally Posted by Sareesh Sudhakaran View Post
6. If the sensor is only 16mm, why is the mount specifically EF? What's the point? By having smaller mounts one can technically use lighter glass to reduce the effect of the poor form factor. Is this going to be a future upgrade/downgrade?
Agreed, m43 would have been great at least as an option - much more suited to the form factor and sensor size (and Panny/Oly are putting out some lovely, tiny, and relatively inexpensive m43 primes). And there's a pretty large Gh1/Gh2 fan base that are prime candidates for this camera.

But I'm sure Evan's right, a larger share of the target market are likely to already own EF mount lenses so it's an easier transfer, even if less than optimal for the camera.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 01:05 AM   #48
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

In my opinion, this camera is a step in the right direction for many reasons, cost obviously being a significant one.

Shallow Depth of Field is not a requirement for telling a great story. There are have been many 16mm and SD Video Shorts/Features over the years which did not suffer audience appeal or success because there was no shallow depth of field.

For Feature/Narrative/Short work, even at low budgets, most crews record sound double system, so 1/4" on camera audio inputs are adequate for a scratch track or even decent audio recording, if double system can't be done.

The footage is promising, and I can easily see this camera being adopted by someone who doesn't care what tool is used to tell his or her story, provided the quality of the image is there.

This model seems to be an excellent way to step into the fray and create a user base from which further feedback could be gleaned to possibly launch another slightly more expensive model which addresses any shortcomings this model may possess - I don't see much to realistically complain about until I see more footage, and then edit/grade it's raw files.

For my part, I would love to see a line of cameras with this being the first, and a healthy array of accessories to outfit the base camera for whatever need arises.

Well done BMD: a Camera and Resolve for under 3K. That is quite the accomplishment. If I had the cash laying around, I would order one asap.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 01:45 AM   #49
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

Jumping Jehosephat, that is right up my alley.
Still salivating over the FS700 or the KineRaw high speed potential though.
These here are crazy times.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 03:37 AM   #50
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

I suspect that high speed frame rates are out of the question for bandwidth issues. There was a comment about needing ~5 MB per frame. To support 60 fps you'd need around 300 MB / second (that's bytes not bits) throughput, and I'm not sure how many SSDs would sustain that.

I'd love to see a version with the P+S Technik IMS mount on it. That's that the Ikonoskop uses, and it can be adapted for Leica M, PL and various other things, as well as the more common Canon and Nikon lenses. It would probably bump the price up, but it'd be worth it.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 05:06 AM   #51
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

I'm surprised at the amount of people already asking for m4/3 mounts. This shows the demand is there and if this camera sells like I think it will, then the race is on to produce a good quality m4/3 mount.

IMS would have been nice, which Ikonoskop were smart enough to include as standard. But at the listed price of the BM, they've already included enough!
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Old April 17th, 2012, 05:09 AM   #52
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

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Originally Posted by Josh Dahlberg View Post
But I'm sure Evan's right, a larger share of the target market are likely to already own EF mount lenses so it's an easier transfer, even if less than optimal for the camera.
I'm not sure that would have been very smart on the part of BlackMagic. For one thing, how did they come to the conclusion that the target market uses EF mounts exclusively?

E.g. Let's take the 7D vs the XF105. The XF105 has better audio, bit rate, form factor, video options etc. Considering the addition of lenses, media and accessories, etc to bring them up to par, they both cost roughly the same, and as far as I can tell, the only major advantage the 7D has is the sensor size + interchangeable lens option.

So, even if we stay within Canon country, where does the BlackMagic camera fit? It does not top the 7D/T3i sensor in terms of DOF and does not take 18MP RAW images. It does not top the XF105 as far as audio or form factor is concerned, but one could make a case to use it rather than the XF105, only if one were shooting a major production that needed RAW or DNxHD, etc. The XF105 allows one to edit native and finish quickly.

Let's bring in the 5DIII. Considering the 5DIII can shoot exceptionally well in low-light, and shoot brilliant 22MP stills as well, with an intraframe codec to boot, would a cash-strapped indie filmmaker sacrifice all this for a small sensor camera only for RAW capability? I'm not sure. Maybe BlackMagic knows the answer. What were they hoping for? Someone who has invested in a 10-22mm or a 11-16 Tokina lens would be happy to switch their entire cinematic style and go no wider than 25mm? Or that someone who has invested in a 50mm 1.4 would be happy to see his/her FOV change to 125mm, and to get that 50mm back, he/she would have to buy a 20mm f2.8, and console themselves on the loss of two stops of light?

Even though BlackMagic have to be applauded for their effort, and I'm sure within the specifications the camera will be a great performer, I'm just not convinced enough to make a switch from my existing Canon gear, and as an independent filmmaker I would hope I'm their target audience.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 06:00 AM   #53
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

There is a misconnection in the industry that only XLR equals good audio and this is just not true at all. There is nothing wrong at all with balanced 1/4" audio, especially if you are talking short cable runs which will cover most mic setups that will be used with this camera. XLR is nice but it is not the end all to good audio. I would take a high quality mic plugged in via 1/8" over a average quality mic plugged in via XLR. 1/4" balanced is not the same as 1/8".

By target audience we mean a large user base. There is insane overly large user based of Canon DSLR users out there. Some how the Canon DSLR line really caught on with indy film makers and now there is a massive user base of EF lens out there who shoot video. That doesn't mean the EF lenses are better just that a lot of that glass is floating around out there. If BM had to pick one lens mount they clearly picked the one that would have the most impact on sales and help them grow the largest user base quickly. While the lens mount choice may not be the best for some of us we are in the minority compared to the amount of EF users out there.

As a M43 user myself dealing with crop factor is nothing new. Both the GH1 and GH2 have to deal with a 2x crop factor when adapting other lenses such as FD lor Nikon lenses. Others have tried to say this was unacceptable but a lot of M43 users have proved there is nothing wrong with this type of crop factor and have dealt with it with very little problems. Perhaps we have to be a bit more careful when shooting wide but it has not been the impossible situation some said it would be. So dealing with the crop factor on the BM camera will be a bit more difficult but no where near impossible.

Yes Raw is a pretty big deal. It's like shooting jpegs for years and suddenly being able to shoot raw photos. The amount of control one has over the entire image is insane. Some film makers realize that resolution is the least important image quality component and have always strived for the least amount of compression and the highest gradable range. This has been the holy grail of the GH1/GH2 camera hacks to minimize compression and attempt to bring back as much of the raw sensor image as possible.

This camera may not be for everybody but watch as a massive amount of indy shooters buy these cameras and start producing work at 2k that can only be touched by cameras costing 3x or 4x as much. The camera is only a tool but this camera is a tool that gives a lot of creative options to users instead of forcing them into a hole. Forget hacking of cameras. This camera is already hacked out of the box to give raw sensor data.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 07:00 AM   #54
 
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

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Originally Posted by Henry Coll View Post
BMD should change its name to Disrupting-Technology-INC

Once again taking everyone by surprise and releasing a product as capable as the rest, at a 10th of the price.

If the BMD camera delivers, this is the death of DLSRs as video cams and a very serious wound to RED, Canon, Sony and the rest.

This thing will fly off the shelves.
Maybe its time independent camera makers did undercut the greed of the big boys.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 08:04 AM   #55
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

John Brawley, the shooter of the Vimeo footage, advises that M4/3 and other mounts are on the to do list for BMD.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 08:29 AM   #56
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

That's good news! I'm sure BM are working on better features, and it's exciting to see them in the camera race.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 08:47 AM   #57
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

Guess this thing has hit a nerve everywhere.

I get the feeling that when everyone has calmed down the the sensor size will be the most sobering factor, certainly to the legions of Canon DSLR users that have grown accustomed to the depth of field. If BM had designed it with a larger sensor then this would have been the new undisputed king of the hill. Interesting to see where it lands.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 09:01 AM   #58
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

In all our years as a camera sales and rental shop, we've never seen such demand for a camera overnight.

We were already getting requests for purchase for this camera yesterday when it was first announced.

And since there are so many Blackmagic resellers in the country, to think that we were only seeing a small portion of the requests boggles my mind.

That said - I need to throw in the obligatory plug for us and say we are taking per-orders for the camera, so drop by our website or give us a call for details and your place in line. We do happen to be one of the leading Blackmagic dealers and I assure you we will be stocking plenty of inventory on this piece!

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Old April 17th, 2012, 09:12 AM   #59
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

The people who are at NAB say the BMD booth is a madhouse. This is what happens when a company listens to the wants and the needs of their user base. Look how many new customers BMD will gain - and how many Sony, Panasonic, Nikon, RED and especially Canon will lose.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 09:42 AM   #60
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Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

OK, so who's gonna make an 6 or 8mm EF-mount prime so this camera can capture a proper wide-angle shot? Maybe someone will come up with an adapter to let it use old cine C-mounts. And future owners better be buying those vintage lenses before they all become unobtainium.

Crop-factor aside, hats off to BlackMagic. This is fantastic news for the industry. I could say mean things about Red or Canon here, but I won't. And I feel really, REALLY bad for those who donated to the Kickstarter Bolex.

I disagree that this will cause even a ripple in the DSLR world, since 90% of those are sold to take stills, and the cine market compared to photo pros, semi-pros, wannabe pros, and soccer moms is almost negligible. But BlackMagic will no doubt be selling these babies as fast as they can make 'em.
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