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Old August 13th, 2013, 01:31 PM   #1
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What got fixed?

I'm looking at the BMCC 2.5K for some corporate gigs I have coming up.

I've read the early reviews and also seen Philip Bloom's video review. Any other good video reviews I should watch?

Philip Bloom brought up a few good points and i wondered what (if any) of these have been fixed in firmware updates since his review, such as:

1) Battery Indicator? Is it still 75%, 50%, 25% etc?
2) Can you delete files from the SSD ?
3) What is a good (but not extortionate) external battery solution?

What else got fixed in firmware?
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Old August 13th, 2013, 05:53 PM   #2
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Re: What got fixed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Partington View Post

1) Battery Indicator? Is it still 75%, 50%, 25% etc?
On the shipping firmware in the POCKET cinema camera it has single percentage battery indication. I believe that the next firmware update will add this to the other cameras. Firmware updates seem to come historically every 3 months or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Partington View Post

2) Can you delete files from the SSD ?
No. And it's not likely this will ever be "fixed" as many believe this is a feature (myself included).

No high end camera has single clip deleting. (RED or Alexa)

What I would really really like is SSD formatting in camera.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Partington View Post

3) What is a good (but not extortionate) external battery solution?
Not my area of expertise as I've always just used VLOCKs as they are uniform across the other cameras I use. Many have jerry built other solutions.

jb
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Old August 13th, 2013, 10:48 PM   #3
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Re: What got fixed?

My DIY battery solution.

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Old August 15th, 2013, 12:01 AM   #4
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Re: What got fixed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Brawley View Post
No. And it's not likely this will ever be "fixed" as many believe this is a feature (myself included).

No high end camera has single clip deleting. (RED or Alexa)

What I would really really like is SSD formatting in camera.



jb
Could you elaborate on this a little? Why do you consider it a feature? I have found the
ability to delete single clips very useful on my FS700 when I pulled the old 'hit record on
accident' and had 35 minutes of me walking, setting the camera in the car, and the inside
of the car as I drove. Or when a take is ruined by a low flying helicopter...or a multitude
of other reasons. Kind of 'editing in camera' where you can get rid of takes that you KNOW
are bad. The fact that a RED or Alexa doesn't do this has absolutely no bearing on if I think
it's a good or useful idea or not, I'm not influenced by the 'well the pro's don't need it so
neither should you' type of thinking. There has got to be more to it than that, just wondering
what it is.
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Old August 15th, 2013, 07:02 AM   #5
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Re: What got fixed?

Surprised to hear that one can't delete single clips in SSD. I can delete files in my C300. When one is shooting outdoors, not having ability to delete single files can be unpleasant if the record button has been accidentally pressed. And when you are doing a number of takes, then ability to delete single files becomes important. Else, it is an inefficient process. RED and Alexa not having this feature is like the story of king not having clothes and every body is expected to follow suit?

BMC has ambitious goals. I am sure all it needs is time to refine its products.
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Old August 15th, 2013, 08:00 AM   #6
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Re: What got fixed?

I have to agree, being able to delete a known bad take it extremely useful when out in the field. I don't want to have to scrub through a take in post that I know was trashed while filming.

The idea that if Red or Alexa don't have it then we don't need it is crazy. There will be people using Red and Alexa that want this feature too.
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Old August 15th, 2013, 10:19 AM   #7
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Re: What got fixed?

When looking for features, you should bear in mind the price of this camera. If it's a simple process to add a clip delete feature that fine, but the C300 is in a much higher price bracket. Useful and essential are two different things and I say this having once accidentally shot off 200 ft of 16mm film when the run switch got knocked

You have to decide how far up the priority list such a feature world be. The only time when it possibly becomes essential is when you're in a really heavy situation when you agree to remove clips featuring a heavy or whatever otherwise you lose the SSD. I can only recall doing this once, when we recorded bars over some shots on a tape.
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Old August 15th, 2013, 10:29 AM   #8
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Re: What got fixed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe Strong View Post
. Or when a take is ruined by a low flying helicopter...or a multitude
of other reasons. Kind of 'editing in camera' where you can get rid of takes that you KNOW
are bad.
The rule is that you should never ever exclude choice from yourself or editorial in the field. How do you know it's bad ? What if the other take is out of focus and the one with bad helicopter sound which you could replace or ADR is the only one in focus which you only find once you're back in the edit suite ?

See where I'm going ?

Shooting on film meant you could never delete.

It's amazing how often mistakes end up in the edit. I'm in the habit now of always rolling a few extra seconds after I hear cut. You almost always get something interesting from an actor relaxing or still in their moment. These "stolen" shots ALWAYS get used at some point in an a show.

Why make it possible to delete something when you don't know what you might need or might not need till the project is delivered ?

Why have something that can accidentally erase the wrong thing ?

Media is cheap. You don't need to make those decisions in the field. You make them in the edit.

Clip deleting is an accident waiting to happen. Hence why you typically don't see it on high end cinema cameras.

Once you've rolled out a 400' mag of film you know to always make sure the camera doesn't accidentally roll.

Once you've shot 35 minutes of setting up your BMCC that you can't delete I bet you also learn to check and not do it again.

Not deleting clips in camera is a choice by BMCC and it's a feature.

jb
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Old August 15th, 2013, 10:47 AM   #9
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Re: What got fixed?

To follow on, deleting takes costs time, which is the expensive thing when you're filming. It's quicker just to do another take, rather than digging into a browser, selecting a clip and deleting it. You could've got a few more shots in the time wasted.
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Old August 15th, 2013, 01:32 PM   #10
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Re: What got fixed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale View Post
To follow on, deleting takes costs time, which is the expensive thing when you're filming. It's quicker just to do another take, rather than digging into a browser, selecting a clip and deleting it. You could've got a few more shots in the time wasted.
No offense but that is just not true. Deleting would only take seconds. I would rather do that then take time in the editing suite forgetting which one you wanted. It would take longer just trying to remember.
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Old August 15th, 2013, 02:28 PM   #11
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Re: What got fixed?

I suspect the time element depends on how your camera menus are structured and there should also be safety checks to ensure you don't accidentally delete. However, as John mentioned you could find for various reasons you're preferred take is unusable. The editing room is the place to look at your takes with a fresh eye and there are occasions when you use part of a "bad" take cut with part of the preferred take. What felt bad at the time may have an on screen verve that the preferred take lacks. There may be an unseen continuity issue that means you can't use the planned take.

When shooting the pressure is to go straight for the next take, the only time that it relaxes is when you've got what is called the good take. However, that take mightn't be the one that's used, it's possible that the performance peaked a couple of takes earlier.

By deleting you're taking options out of the editing process and surprises found there are the things that make for better films.
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Old August 15th, 2013, 05:34 PM   #12
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Re: What got fixed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Brawley View Post
The rule is that you should never ever exclude choice from yourself or editorial in the field. How do you know it's bad ? What if the other take is out of focus and the one with bad helicopter sound which you could replace or ADR is the only one in focus which you only find once you're back in the edit suite ?

See where I'm going ?

Shooting on film meant you could never delete.

It's amazing how often mistakes end up in the edit. I'm in the habit now of always rolling a few extra seconds after I hear cut. You almost always get something interesting from an actor relaxing or still in their moment. These "stolen" shots ALWAYS get used at some point in an a show.

Why make it possible to delete something when you don't know what you might need or might not need till the project is delivered ?

Why have something that can accidentally erase the wrong thing ?

Media is cheap. You don't need to make those decisions in the field. You make them in the edit.

Clip deleting is an accident waiting to happen. Hence why you typically don't see it on high end cinema cameras.

Once you've rolled out a 400' mag of film you know to always make sure the camera doesn't accidentally roll.

Once you've shot 35 minutes of setting up your BMCC that you can't delete I bet you also learn to check and not do it again.

Not deleting clips in camera is a choice by BMCC and it's a feature.

jb
That's kind of silly. I mean I can use that argument as well:
'once you delete a good take, you will know to always make sure you don't
accidentally do that again' and 'once you delete a good take, I bet you learn to check
and not do it again.' I know enough not to delete 'marginal' takes. I also know when the stuff is
just a big mistake and will never see the light of day. When I have stuff like that, I'd prefer to have
the choice to delete it. Taking that choice from me does not make things 'more pro' in my eyes,
high end still cameras allow you to do it. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Old August 15th, 2013, 06:00 PM   #13
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Re: What got fixed?

Media is cheap.

What's the advantage of deleting in camera over deleting in the edit suite ?

The risk of deleting something accidentally on top of the time and interruption to process to delete in camera.

I shoot with mutiple cameras all the time on fast turnover TV. We don't even playback clips unless it's for reviewing a stunt or something that will take a long time to re-set.

If you've got time to start reviewing then you just go again. Why not have two takes than one you think is OK.

It's about time and momentum on set.

You're alos in a different mental "space" when you're shooting.

Obviously it's a philosophical choice in terms of the protocols on set. I think it speaks more about the workflow differences of narrative drama (where I work) to owner operators doing other forms of production.

The cost of most of what I do is astronomically expensive to re-do because someone deleted a take accidentally. So the choice just isn't there in the first place. You don't need to do it other than to save media.

If it's a choice between the risk of accidentally deleting media and saving a few bucks on low cost media I'd rather not have the risk there thanks.

And that's why not just the BMCC that doesn't have single clip deleting. You don't HAVE to have it. The fact that BMD Arri and RED exists and have sold in their current form without changing this long established protocol prove it.

JB
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Old August 15th, 2013, 06:50 PM   #14
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Re: What got fixed?

There's probably even less reason to use delete as a standard part of your shooting protocol on other types of production. Narrative production is more controlled than other types. The argument seems to be that delete saves looking through material, but the usual assumption when cutting quickly by an editor is that the last take is the best one. So I can't see what's being gained, since the media costs are relatively low and reusable.

I can understand the need for printing selected takes when printing 35mm work prints because of costs, but that doesn't apply and the neg is still available in any case.
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Old August 15th, 2013, 09:15 PM   #15
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Re: What got fixed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Brawley View Post
Media is cheap.

What's the advantage of deleting in camera over deleting in the edit suite ?

The risk of deleting something accidentally on top of the time and interruption to process to delete in camera.

I shoot with mutiple cameras all the time on fast turnover TV. We don't even playback clips unless it's for reviewing a stunt or something that will take a long time to re-set.

If you've got time to start reviewing then you just go again. Why not have two takes than one you think is OK.

It's about time and momentum on set.

You're alos in a different mental "space" when you're shooting.

Obviously it's a philosophical choice in terms of the protocols on set. I think it speaks more about the workflow differences of narrative drama (where I work) to owner operators doing other forms of production.

The cost of most of what I do is astronomically expensive to re-do because someone deleted a take accidentally. So the choice just isn't there in the first place. You don't need to do it other than to save media.

If it's a choice between the risk of accidentally deleting media and saving a few bucks on low cost media I'd rather not have the risk there thanks.

And that's why not just the BMCC that doesn't have single clip deleting. You don't HAVE to have it. The fact that BMD Arri and RED exists and have sold in their current form without changing this long established protocol prove it.

JB
That's a good point. I don't do narrative which probably biases
what I want. For example, I just finished working for American
Eagle. We were doing interviews and had many ruined by the crazy
summer Alaska tourist stuff (low flying choppers). Can't do ADR on
an interview. I guess that as other forms of production (other than
narrative) start using super 35 cameras there will be some of these
issues.
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