Picking a camera - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Most Recent Additions... > BlackMagic Cinema Camera

BlackMagic Cinema Camera
EF & MFT lens mount / 2.5K CinemaDNG RAW


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 19th, 2013, 07:25 AM   #16
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Posts: 9,068
Re: Picking a camera

Most of us know here about raw, the question is, are you ready for a raw workflow, if you get the pocketcam and shoot raw you would need tons of harddrive space, probably a new computer, a lot of large cards for the camera, a bunch of batteries, a lot of time grading the footage etc...Even for it's larger brother you need to add at least the double it's price on accessories to make it production ready, and don't forget the cost of lenses. Don't expect that getting a black magic camera will give you instant high quality cinematic like footage, there are a lot of examples online proving otherwise and in many cases looking worse then what an 8 bit camera can do. Raw camera's require a lot of expertise to get the most from it.

I don't want to discourage you but based on your reactions I can see you have not been up to date about the latest camera technology and what camera are able to do, you might be surprised if you compare to a HDV camera.
Noa Put is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 19th, 2013, 08:04 AM   #17
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Posts: 1,137
Re: Picking a camera

Well, I may not have been up to the date on using post-HDV technologies, but I have been following what was being released. There has been plenty on-line tests to view things.

That's how I had picked the Sony FS100 as a much better deal than a Canon 5D Mk II or III, and checking with a friend of mine working a big production company, whose programs are broadcasted world around.

My comparison of technologies has always been to film, which is where I come from, not to other video cameras. And my quest is to find what approaches more to film, be it in 16mm or 35mm. We all have our "trade views", and mine was probably super-16 film, that I found was the highest quality you could get for affordable budgets. I'm probably doing the same in video.

Yes, HDD space is the issue for post-production, and you certainly have to consider that as a MAJOR issue. But an even major problem is how many cards you would need with a Pocket camera.

I'm not sure what you mean by "getting instant high quality cinematic like footage". Neither am I sure on what reactions have I had to your concepts.
Carlos E. Martinez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2013, 04:13 AM   #18
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Posts: 1,137
Re: Picking a camera

OK, I have reconsidered, and maybe I might be able to live with the Pocket, recording ProRes, for some time.

It would be essential to add an external cage, like the Contineo, to hold at least an external battery, a 7" monitor and an audio recorder.

http://max-aperture.com/wp-content/u...0/P1100095.jpg

What basic zoom should I pack it with for a starting kit? Besides that, just one more fixed lens for now.

Later on I would try recording RAW and see what happens.
Carlos E. Martinez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2013, 10:16 AM   #19
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posts: 3,782
Re: Picking a camera

Just to be clear one reason the Pocket is important for Doc work, which you've sort of alluded to, is that it's discrete. You can get into places with a camera that looks like a consumer point and shoot, that you couldn't even with the BMCC.

For hand held work the Panasonic 12-35 f2.8 is good because of the OIS.
For night work and interviews, etc. would be the Sigma 18-35 f1.8 Nikon Mount with new Metabones Pocket SpeedBooster. This will be excellent low light performance.
For wide work the Tokina 11-16 f2.8 Nikon Mount with Metabones Pocket SpeedBooster.
Note that the NEW Pocket SpeedBooster gets you very close to typical APS-C Super35 Field of View.

Batteries get the Blackmagic ones for $15 US. They last over 50 minutes for me. If you can get the Nikons they last over 60 minutes for me but they cost around $45 US (price fluctuates).

For ProRes recording get 128GBSandisk Extreme or Extreme Plus (will give you faster offload) and you'll get about 77 minutes per card.
For those occasions were you must shot RAW (that really should be rare and extreme fix in post circumstances) you can get one or two 64GB Extreme Pro cards.

The above gives you a good kit that fits in a small bag. You'll look like a very non threatening consumer photo enthusiast.

There's nothing else on the market that really comes close to this kind of flexibility and quality in a small package.
Craig Seeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2013, 10:38 AM   #20
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Posts: 1,137
Re: Picking a camera

Thanks, Craig. Your suggestions are absolutely logical.

There are two things that I find too fragile on the Pocket that I think need adapter protection, like it was done with 1/8" mini-plug connector: the micro-HDMI interface and the DC socket.

My idea is to put the Pocket on a cage, like Contineo's, and put at least 1-ft cabled adapters to something more solid. On the battery case, I think it's a great idea to plug in a Sony L-Battery adapter, which should hold a long time. The photo I put above has such an adapter.

There's a chance a friend of mine brings the camera to me from NY, so I will have to keep things as minimum as possible. Like just one lens, at most two. So I would have to choose between the Pana zoom or the Sigma, perhaps with the Metabones.

Mem cards would be alright, and I will probably get a few. like four Extreme Plus and two Extreme Pro.
Carlos E. Martinez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2013, 10:55 AM   #21
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Round Rock, TX
Posts: 110
Re: Picking a camera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos E. Martinez View Post
Yes, HDD space is the issue for post-production, and you certainly have to consider that as a MAJOR issue. But an even major problem is how many cards you would need with a Pocket camera.
If you are shooting ProRes, you can probably get by with a pair of 64 GB cards if you dump the cards as you fill them up. If you won't have the time or ability to dump the cards while shooting, then plan on 37 minutes per 64 GB card. I would go with Sandisk Extreme for ProRes on a budget. Of course, these will not work with raw, although I was able to get a short test shot at 24 fps. A longer test failed miserably, dropping probably 25% of the frames.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos E. Martinez View Post

It would be essential to add an external cage, like the Contineo, to hold at least an external battery, a 7" monitor and an audio recorder.

http://max-aperture.com/wp-content/u...0/P1100095.jpg

What basic zoom should I pack it with for a starting kit? Besides that, just one more fixed lens for now.

Later on I would try recording RAW and see what happens.
Many field monitors will not work with the BMPCC due to the progressive output. I believe the Sony in that photo is one of them. I returned 3 different monitors (2 Ikans and a Marshall) before finding one that would work with the pocket cam and cost less than $400. I settled on the Lilliput 663, which is actually pretty nice for the price. I do wish it was 2" smaller though. It comes in a nice looking (but kind of cheap feeling) case, which is great for keeping it from getting scratched up while it is packed away.

External batteries. I have an Anker Pro battery pack - 10,000 mAh, switchable 9 and 12 volt out, plus 2 USB taps that output 5 volts, and can be adapted to a normal power plug. I can power my camera with it, or I can power both my external audio (5 volt) and my monitor (12 volt) with it. A second pack lets me power all 3, and should get me through a whole day of shooting (have not tested duration yet, but a couple of hours is no problem). There are other battery options too, but I think these "smart" packs like the Anker are the best bet. You will have to buy or build your own plug for the camera if you go this route - the Anker comes with some 18 adapters, but none fit the pocket cam. The only other downside is that you have to roll your own mount - there are no mount points on the battery.

Zoom lens - I have an Angenieux 12-120 which is actually a nice lens, but vignetting is an issue under certain conditions. I also have an old Canon 16-100 video lens. It covers the frame, but image quality is poor until it is stopped down a bit. The cheap Panasonic and Olympus kit zooms are actually decent, if not a bit slow. Just be aware that the OIS on the Panny 14-42 will not work with BMPCC, as there is no way to activate it in-camera.

If I could start over, I would go straight for the Panasonic 12-35 - it seems to be a very good match for the pocket cam. There are a *lot* of options out there though. The c-mount stuff is the most interesting, but also the most risky, as many vignette, or will not mount on a MFT adapter without modification to the lens. There is a good group on Facebook for discussing c-mount on MFT and super 16 - lots of information to be had there if c-mount is appealing...
Jay Bratcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2013, 11:43 AM   #22
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Posts: 1,137
Re: Picking a camera

Thanks, Jay. Good tip about the monitors, as I didn't know there might be a problem with them. Particularly if I'm not buying it myself.

I'm looking for something a bit more complete, like this Ikan:

D7w: 7" 3G-SDI LCD Monitor w/ IPS Panel (Waveform) | ikan

I think an on-monitor waveform might improve my capacity to use the whole dynamic range the Pocket allows.

I haven't yet looked at the battery adapter options that can plug on the Pocket, but I would like something that may allow me to use the Sony L-batteries, which I already use on my Sony Z1.

I'm sorry to disagree on the C-mount options. I suffered C-mounts on Bolex years, and they are a real pain. Give me a good bayonet type and off I go. Though I would love an Angenieux 9.5-57 if it can be adapted so as not to vignette. Apparently my options are between the Pana 12-35 and the Sigma 18-35.

I would like something a bit longer at the end, like 12-50 or 12-75, if there's such a thing.
Carlos E. Martinez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2013, 12:08 PM   #23
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Posts: 1,137
Re: Picking a camera

These are some of the Micro Four Thirds zooms I could find at B&H:

1) Tamron 14-150mm f/3.5-5.8 (no price yet)
2) Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 ($299)
3) Olympus 12-50mm f/3.5-6.3 ($499)
4) Panasonic LUMIX G VARIO 14-140mm f/3.5-5.6 ($698)
5) Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm f/4.0-5.6 ($699)
6) Olympus M. Zuiko Digital ED 12-40mm f/2.8 ($999)
7) Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6 (299)

My bets would be on the Olympus lenses, as I'm not sure about the quality of the others.

Now, if I get a Speedbooster that allows me to use Nikon G lenses, there are more options. But I'm not sure what's the crop factor for Micro Four Thirds.
Carlos E. Martinez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 21st, 2013, 12:17 PM   #24
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posts: 3,782
Re: Picking a camera

If you're looking at external batter options that are still compact there's the Switronix PocketBase.
PocketBase

While the camera isn't quite as discreet with it as you can see it doesn't need to be on a rig so you still have good portability. I've heard 5 hour runtime. It'll justify getting the 128GB Extreme Plus cards for ProRes recording. That means you can go straight through a 77 minutes interview without changing a thing. That battery and four of those cards can get you the through the better part of a day's shoot.
Craig Seeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 21st, 2013, 12:36 PM   #25
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posts: 3,782
Re: Picking a camera

Already mentioned the lenses and why for each.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Seeman View Post
For hand held work the Panasonic 12-35 f2.8 is good because of the OIS.
For night work and interviews, etc. would be the Sigma 18-35 f1.8 Nikon Mount with new Metabones Pocket SpeedBooster. This will be excellent low light performance.
For wide work the Tokina 11-16 f2.8 Nikon Mount with Metabones Pocket SpeedBooster.
Note that the NEW Pocket SpeedBooster gets you very close to typical APS-C Super35 Field of View.
The new Pocket Speed Booster is 0.58x. The Pocket itself is 2.88x crop factor. That gives you a crop factor of 1.67 which is just about APS-C which is about 1.6.
It'll also make lenses 1 2/3 stops faster.

I'm not sure why you're looking at all those lenses. If you want OIS your options are limited to Panasonic with the OIS Switch.
The 12-35 f2.8 is the all around best. It's the equivalent of about 35-100mm Full Frame.
The Tokina with Speed Booster is equivalent to 18-27mm at about f1.6 I believe
The Sigma with Speed Booster is equivalent to 30-58 at about f1 (!!!) I think.
So with those three lenses you're covered from about 18 - 100mm Full Frame and pretty good low light.

Of course getting a good long lens to go beyond 100mm Full Frame might be good though.
Keep in mind these are Full Frame lengths so APS-C equivalents (S35) are actually longer and what people are used to (unless shooting with a Canon 5D).

I'm mentioning all this because if you're traveling and shooting a doc, a box full of lenses and having to change them often, will both weigh you down and slow you down IMHO. Of course it's good to have a bunch of lenses, especially primes, if you're shooting narrative.
Craig Seeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 22nd, 2013, 11:45 AM   #26
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Posts: 1,137
Re: Picking a camera

Hi Craig,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Seeman View Post
If you're looking at external batter options that are still compact there's the Switronix PocketBase.
I've seen a YouTube review of the Switronix, and I found it rather rough. Maybe there are other better options using the Sony L battery.

About the lenses, I generally tend to agree with you on what you say, but with a few maybes.

To start with, I don't have such a problem with non-OIS lenses, if that means adjusting the stop by hand. That's why I want a monitor that shows me the scene waveform.

Perhaps it's a preconception, but I'm not sure about the Panasonic lenses quality once the image is blown to typical theater screen sizes. I'm planning to shoot theater features with this camera, so the quality has to stand being blown up. Not IMAX sizes, of course, but I'm imagining something 8 or 10 meter wide.

As this would be my first lens, I'm not yet sure what to start from.

Prime lenses are out at this stage, at least for this doc feature I'm shooting now, but they might be a necessity if I can go forward with some of my projects.

I think of the Pocket as a Super-16 film camera, where the image can be transferred to 35mm film and shown on theaters.
Carlos E. Martinez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 22nd, 2013, 12:11 PM   #27
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posts: 3,782
Re: Picking a camera

OIS is image stabilization. Nothing to do with adjusting aperture. Small cameras tend to be hard to hold steady. OIS is built in lens stabilization to lessen the shakes.

AbelCine tested the Switronix and like it a lot. It keeps the camera compact. Obviously there are better options for rigs but if you want to keep it "Pocket" portable the Switronix is it. Bescor may have a similar option soon.

The Panasonic 12-35 is an EXCELLENT lens. REALLY.
There are nominally better lenses. It's just whether OIS is important and IMHO you MUST have at least ONE good OIS lens. Otherwise if you're only going to be on a rig, the BMCC might be a better choice.

As mentioned the Sigma 18-35 f1.8 with Pocket SpeedBoost is a good option but that's not going to be great for hand held.
Craig Seeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 22nd, 2013, 12:21 PM   #28
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Posts: 1,137
Re: Picking a camera

Of course you're right, Craig. I mixed the terms up.

OIS seems like a debatable question to some. Some claim that if the camera is fixed and OIS is on, there might some problems with micro-movements of the objects on screen.

But of course I should have one lens that is OIS, and maybe that's the one you mention.

Don't worry too much about hand held work: I abhor camera hand-holding.

But movement of any kind is good, as long as on wheels or pretty steady steady-cam.
Carlos E. Martinez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 22nd, 2013, 12:34 PM   #29
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posts: 3,782
Re: Picking a camera

If you're not going to be handheld the Sigma 18-35 with Speed Booster would be the better lens in some respects.

Of course you'll probably want to get a longer lens as well. You'd probably be better off with a Nikon mount lens in that regard as well. Since you can have both Speed Booster and "standard" Nikon to MFT adaptor one lens can be either 1.67 and faster or 2.88, which will be longer but slower.
Craig Seeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 22nd, 2013, 02:09 PM   #30
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Posts: 1,137
Re: Picking a camera

You did not comment on the issues that might be involved in my blowing up what I shot with the lens onto a large projection screen, and how the Panasonics would hold.

On Super 16 you needed the lens to be very top quality to endure that. But I can't afford the Zeiss lenses that should be the answer to my demands.

So maybe second or third best. I heard about the Voightlander primes quality, and Olimpus lenses, particularly the expensive ones, when I was looking into that for the Panasonic GH2 and GH3.

What can you say about the Nikon lenses? What will a Nikon lens become once it's on an MFT to Nikon adapter + Speedbooster?

Going wider to 12mm instead of 18mm is also a plus, as well as having another lens that can get longer, perhaps up to 100mm.

I know this type of information, on what you get when you blow up every lens image, is not easy to get.
Carlos E. Martinez is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Most Recent Additions... > BlackMagic Cinema Camera

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:40 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network