Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?

Rob Katz · May 27th, 2015, 06:28 AM

larry-

"is it better?"

you chose a very high contrast scene to "test" the bm.

i thought the white of the snow was dead-on.

have you checked your scopes to see if it is legal?

(looks legal but could be close)

i think the young lady in scene has skin tone which is okay, it looked normal.

again, the sunlight cast a shadow and is so harsh.

there is plenty of blue and subtly in the sky to the right of frame.

and when she leaves frame that breath of red in her clothing also appears very natural.

i am no blackmagic guru or even user.

but i am a VERY interested bm lurker who is oh so close to leaping on one of the blackmagic cameras.

i just don't know if i should wait till autumn and the release of all that was shown at nab 2015 or buy a bmpcc for $500 and play around.

that said, i think you are on the right track.

thumbs up.

ymmv

be well.

rob
smalltalk productions/nyc

Larry Secrest · May 27th, 2015, 11:14 AM

Thanks Rob.

I don't know if you can buy bmpcc for $500 anymore, I think that deal is gone!

PS: What you call young lady is my 70 year old neighbor, the wife of the guy to whom the cam belongs!

Jim Andrada · May 27th, 2015, 03:50 PM

Hi Larry

The snow looks right on as Rob said, and skin tone looks OK.

I think it's "better" (whatever that means, since everyone has their own idea of good better best. You can play with this stuff forever so it's really a matter of what you WANT it to look like. To my (admittedly aging) eye(s) it looks more like I imagine it was. Bright, contrasty, but not (I think) blown out.

Looking at it again, it seems like the front of the house behind her MIGHT be on the verge of blown out - maybe dialing it back a "skosh" would be a good idea.

Best idea would be to shoot a variety of scenes with the camera. Maybe you can hold onto it under the guise of protecting it/checking it out for the owner.

I wonder what there is about the BMCC that appeals to us 70+ individuals?

Larry Secrest · May 29th, 2015, 12:05 PM

Jim,
I think you're right about the front of the house. I realize I got the snow right, for some reason.

Ok, I"m going to see if I can play more with his camera and see how I do. I'm happy to have the opportunity to be able to actually play with somebody's cam before buying mine. I guess if I can't get something decent out of it through Resolve I might as well save the money!

Jim Andrada · May 29th, 2015, 03:22 PM

Good luck!

The way I look at Black Magic is that they don't sell cameras, they sell boxes with a sensor and recorder and you get to buy all the bits and pieces needed to turn the box into a camera. My C-100 out of the box is actually a complete camera, not so my BMCC and BMPCC's.

But having said all that, you can get VERY good results with the BM products. Takes a bit of work, but when you get it down it's worth it IMHO.

And Resolve is great - strange interface due, I think, to it's history as a stand alone workstation. I'll be really interested to get my hands on Resolve 12 in a couple of months.

See if you can find the Warren Eagles tutorials. I got mine from FXPHD. I don't know that he distributes them any other way but I'm pretty impressed with them.

Larry Secrest · May 29th, 2015, 04:33 PM

To keep things in perspective, check this footage, and check which cam did that!

Jim Andrada · May 29th, 2015, 10:15 PM

As in the guy behind the camera is more important than the camera itself?

I still use my JVC HD 110 - although I've chickened out and record to a Ninja-2 instead of tape.

And I still get great results from my 110 year old wooden 8x10 film camera with a 120 year old lens on it.

Noa Put · May 30th, 2015, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Secrest

To keep things in perspective, check this footage, and check which cam did that!

Cadereyta Promotional on Vimeo

But this is a thread about the bmpcc, not the xh-a1 :)

Larry Secrest · May 30th, 2015, 04:30 AM

I understand, Noa, but if somebody had retrieved that footage from online, remove all references and post it here as footage from one of the BMC, nobody would have been able to tell it was not. Nobody would have been able to tell that it was actually produced by a cam shooting 1440x1080 made in 2006.
That's my point and it is relevant to the BMC.

Noa Put · May 30th, 2015, 10:00 AM

I still don't understand what the xh-a1 has to do with the pocket cam, I can find gopro 4 footage shot in 4K that under the right circumstances will look better then what a xh-a1 can produce, but what would I be proving with that? I have shot for several years with a xh-a1 and know very well what it can do, it can produce some nice images in good light and also some very ugly ones in not so good light, the xh-a1 is no match when it comes to dynamic range if you compare it with a pocket camera once you start shooting and grading in raw, there is no comparison. Every camera has it's pro's and cons, in the right hands and under the right conditions any camera today can look good, the trick is to show what a camera can do best and to work around it's limitations.

The footage from a pocket cam can be pushed further then any other camera in it's price range, the secret seems to be able to know how to get beyond that point where most other camera's give up. That's why I find so much footage from Black magic camera's that don't look good and just a handful that does as many people just don't know how to shoot and edit with this camera and it's based on that footage other people, including you, think you might as well be shooting with a xh-a1.

I probably won't be able to get the best from the pocket cam either but I most certainly am going to try to make an attempt very shortly, and it's not going to be some handheld footage from my garden or cat. :)

Craig Seeman · May 30th, 2015, 10:40 AM

I think some people may be missing the advantage the BMPCC has over many other cameras. It's not simply how good but how much control you have.

With the BMPCC recording in ProRes flavors and especially in cDNG, you control the look. You can grade it any number of ways, not break the codec and, create any number of looks.

I think a telling test, rarely done, is to take the same video and create two entirely different looks and show that each looks good. That's the thing you can do with the BMPCC that you can't do with other cameras.

With a good DP, most cameras can look good, knowing how to work within the limits of the codec, dynamic range, noise floor, color science. With the BMPCC you have just about the widest door to make changes in post of any camera on the market.

Whether the BMPCC is the right camera for you depends on how important the post grading control is for you.

Larry Secrest · May 30th, 2015, 12:51 PM

Sure, both comments are fair.
I don't feel bad not having done a good job with the BMCC as I don't own one to play with it at leisure.
But what Noa says is very intriguing: "That's why I find so much footage from Black magic camera's that don't look good....."
I'm not sure what this means, but I too haven't seen any footage I like shot with any of the BMC, as a matter of fact. I've seen amazing stuff shot with a GH4.
I understand what you are both saying, but I'm wondering if most people are simply not just "wasting" money buying that cam. Wouldn't it be better to download the free version of Resolve, learn how to become a colorist, them buy the cam?

Noa Put · May 30th, 2015, 12:59 PM

Quote:

I'm not sure what this means

That means many don't know how to color correct footage from a bmpcc, or they think they do and call it "cinematic".

Jim Andrada · May 30th, 2015, 06:47 PM

Exactly - +1!!!!!

John McCully · May 31st, 2015, 12:05 AM

It is perhaps useful to recall that when the BMPCC was first offered for sale the loud and pulsating headline was '13 stops of dynamic range'. Of course the file format meant that pushing and pulling things around in post, serious color grading, was doable. That was way back when Grant Petty didn't have any grey hair, perhaps a couple of years or more ago. It is fair to suggest that Black Magic was targeting the would-be movie maker, or at least the videographer including the home and garden variety, the same way that Panasonic did when they introduced the DVX100 cam that shot 24p can you believe (which of course was all that you needed to make movies just like you see at the movies).

That was way back when Adam was a cowboy.

Things have changed dramatically from a technology point of view. Today even point and shoot cams sport high bit rate XAV-C and relatively decent dynamic range. Every day, it seems, Sony do what they never did in the past; they issue firmware updates and quicker than you can say Jack Robinson.

The BMPCC is not all that unique all of a sudden. Seems to me folks who are fluent with capable grading software can push and pull footage from most any cam including a state-of-the-art cell phone and produce 'art', sort of.

And what with the action cam craze (I refuse to say GoPro), selfies and such like, who cares about making movies anymore! It's for Facebook, YouTube and sharing on cell phones, stupid.

How things have changed, and continue to change...

So when it comes right down to it what is it that the BMPCC brings to the table that is so special these days?

Nostalgia perhaps!

May 27th, 2015, 06:28 AM	#61
Rob Katz Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: new york city, new york Posts: 594	Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying? larry- "is it better?" you chose a very high contrast scene to "test" the bm. i thought the white of the snow was dead-on. have you checked your scopes to see if it is legal? (looks legal but could be close) i think the young lady in scene has skin tone which is okay, it looked normal. again, the sunlight cast a shadow and is so harsh. there is plenty of blue and subtly in the sky to the right of frame. and when she leaves frame that breath of red in her clothing also appears very natural. i am no blackmagic guru or even user. but i am a VERY interested bm lurker who is oh so close to leaping on one of the blackmagic cameras. i just don't know if i should wait till autumn and the release of all that was shown at nab 2015 or buy a bmpcc for $500 and play around. that said, i think you are on the right track. thumbs up. ymmv be well. rob smalltalk productions/nyc

May 27th, 2015, 11:14 AM	#62
Larry Secrest Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 404	Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying? Thanks Rob. I don't know if you can buy bmpcc for $500 anymore, I think that deal is gone! PS: What you call young lady is my 70 year old neighbor, the wife of the guy to whom the cam belongs!

May 27th, 2015, 03:50 PM	#63
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying? Hi Larry The snow looks right on as Rob said, and skin tone looks OK. I think it's "better" (whatever that means, since everyone has their own idea of good better best. You can play with this stuff forever so it's really a matter of what you WANT it to look like. To my (admittedly aging) eye(s) it looks more like I imagine it was. Bright, contrasty, but not (I think) blown out. Looking at it again, it seems like the front of the house behind her MIGHT be on the verge of blown out - maybe dialing it back a "skosh" would be a good idea. Best idea would be to shoot a variety of scenes with the camera. Maybe you can hold onto it under the guise of protecting it/checking it out for the owner. I wonder what there is about the BMCC that appeals to us 70+ individuals?

May 29th, 2015, 12:05 PM	#64
Larry Secrest Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 404	Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying? Jim, I think you're right about the front of the house. I realize I got the snow right, for some reason. Ok, I"m going to see if I can play more with his camera and see how I do. I'm happy to have the opportunity to be able to actually play with somebody's cam before buying mine. I guess if I can't get something decent out of it through Resolve I might as well save the money!

May 29th, 2015, 03:22 PM	#65
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying? Good luck! The way I look at Black Magic is that they don't sell cameras, they sell boxes with a sensor and recorder and you get to buy all the bits and pieces needed to turn the box into a camera. My C-100 out of the box is actually a complete camera, not so my BMCC and BMPCC's. But having said all that, you can get VERY good results with the BM products. Takes a bit of work, but when you get it down it's worth it IMHO. And Resolve is great - strange interface due, I think, to it's history as a stand alone workstation. I'll be really interested to get my hands on Resolve 12 in a couple of months. See if you can find the Warren Eagles tutorials. I got mine from FXPHD. I don't know that he distributes them any other way but I'm pretty impressed with them.

May 29th, 2015, 04:33 PM	#66
Larry Secrest Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 404	Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying? To keep things in perspective, check this footage, and check which cam did that! Cadereyta Promotional on Vimeo

May 29th, 2015, 10:15 PM	#67
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying? As in the guy behind the camera is more important than the camera itself? I still use my JVC HD 110 - although I've chickened out and record to a Ninja-2 instead of tape. And I still get great results from my 110 year old wooden 8x10 film camera with a 120 year old lens on it.

May 30th, 2015, 04:30 AM	#69
Larry Secrest Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 404	Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying? I understand, Noa, but if somebody had retrieved that footage from online, remove all references and post it here as footage from one of the BMC, nobody would have been able to tell it was not. Nobody would have been able to tell that it was actually produced by a cam shooting 1440x1080 made in 2006. That's my point and it is relevant to the BMC.

May 30th, 2015, 10:00 AM	#70
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,509	Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying? I still don't understand what the xh-a1 has to do with the pocket cam, I can find gopro 4 footage shot in 4K that under the right circumstances will look better then what a xh-a1 can produce, but what would I be proving with that? I have shot for several years with a xh-a1 and know very well what it can do, it can produce some nice images in good light and also some very ugly ones in not so good light, the xh-a1 is no match when it comes to dynamic range if you compare it with a pocket camera once you start shooting and grading in raw, there is no comparison. Every camera has it's pro's and cons, in the right hands and under the right conditions any camera today can look good, the trick is to show what a camera can do best and to work around it's limitations. The footage from a pocket cam can be pushed further then any other camera in it's price range, the secret seems to be able to know how to get beyond that point where most other camera's give up. That's why I find so much footage from Black magic camera's that don't look good and just a handful that does as many people just don't know how to shoot and edit with this camera and it's based on that footage other people, including you, think you might as well be shooting with a xh-a1. I probably won't be able to get the best from the pocket cam either but I most certainly am going to try to make an attempt very shortly, and it's not going to be some handheld footage from my garden or cat. :)

May 30th, 2015, 10:40 AM	#71
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying? I think some people may be missing the advantage the BMPCC has over many other cameras. It's not simply how good but how much control you have. With the BMPCC recording in ProRes flavors and especially in cDNG, you control the look. You can grade it any number of ways, not break the codec and, create any number of looks. I think a telling test, rarely done, is to take the same video and create two entirely different looks and show that each looks good. That's the thing you can do with the BMPCC that you can't do with other cameras. With a good DP, most cameras can look good, knowing how to work within the limits of the codec, dynamic range, noise floor, color science. With the BMPCC you have just about the widest door to make changes in post of any camera on the market. Whether the BMPCC is the right camera for you depends on how important the post grading control is for you.

May 30th, 2015, 12:51 PM	#72
Larry Secrest Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 404	Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying? Sure, both comments are fair. I don't feel bad not having done a good job with the BMCC as I don't own one to play with it at leisure. But what Noa says is very intriguing: "That's why I find so much footage from Black magic camera's that don't look good....." I'm not sure what this means, but I too haven't seen any footage I like shot with any of the BMC, as a matter of fact. I've seen amazing stuff shot with a GH4. I understand what you are both saying, but I'm wondering if most people are simply not just "wasting" money buying that cam. Wouldn't it be better to download the free version of Resolve, learn how to become a colorist, them buy the cam?

May 30th, 2015, 06:47 PM	#74
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying? Exactly - +1!!!!!

May 31st, 2015, 12:05 AM	#75
John McCully Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South Island, New Zealand Posts: 609 Images: 2	Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying? It is perhaps useful to recall that when the BMPCC was first offered for sale the loud and pulsating headline was '13 stops of dynamic range'. Of course the file format meant that pushing and pulling things around in post, serious color grading, was doable. That was way back when Grant Petty didn't have any grey hair, perhaps a couple of years or more ago. It is fair to suggest that Black Magic was targeting the would-be movie maker, or at least the videographer including the home and garden variety, the same way that Panasonic did when they introduced the DVX100 cam that shot 24p can you believe (which of course was all that you needed to make movies just like you see at the movies). That was way back when Adam was a cowboy. Things have changed dramatically from a technology point of view. Today even point and shoot cams sport high bit rate XAV-C and relatively decent dynamic range. Every day, it seems, Sony do what they never did in the past; they issue firmware updates and quicker than you can say Jack Robinson. The BMPCC is not all that unique all of a sudden. Seems to me folks who are fluent with capable grading software can push and pull footage from most any cam including a state-of-the-art cell phone and produce 'art', sort of. And what with the action cam craze (I refuse to say GoPro), selfies and such like, who cares about making movies anymore! It's for Facebook, YouTube and sharing on cell phones, stupid. How things have changed, and continue to change... So when it comes right down to it what is it that the BMPCC brings to the table that is so special these days? Nostalgia perhaps!