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Old January 4th, 2009, 09:44 PM   #1
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Too early to begin delivering Blu-Ray to clients?

Hello,

I'm considering purchasing a Blu-Ray burner and upgrading to Vegas 8 to begin providing HD to my clients.

My concern is that there are going to be many compatibility issues regarding Blu-Ray media/players. Will my clients be able to play the Blu-Ray disk I give them without any issues? Or, is it still too early to invest in this technology.

If this is not a problem, which Blu-Ray burner would you recommend?

Thanks in advance for your replies.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 11:30 AM   #2
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If you have short projects you canb urn BR projects withouta blue ray burner and on standard DVD discs.
Just got done trying it and it played great on my PS3. Burn right out of Vegas.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 02:08 PM   #3
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Is this at full resolution ? Does it include titles or do you have to go to DVD architect for that ?
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Old January 5th, 2009, 03:23 PM   #4
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Just my two cents worth, I am not a pro but everytime I have to make even a STD DVD I cringe at the thought, as it seems a lottery as to whether it will play reliably on other players. I have made probably less than 30 discs over the last 4 years but the hassles seem never ending, even now. I must say though, I have not used DVDA yet, but I started with Ulead DVD Workshop which at the time was highly recommended and seemed fine, until I found that although the results were OK on three or four players of my own, once they were given out, there were always a few people who had problems playing them.

On questioning some of my pro friends I found that they had even gone to direct burning on stand alone DVD recorders with hardware encoding direct from firewire to address the issue. I have also gone down this path too with better results but of course it is limited. - No menus and auto chapter points only.

Even now, after I have just made a successful DVD RW (after a lot of frustration with Vegas 8 but now resolved - (see my recent post), I find when I go to make a copy in the PC, - (tried 2 PC's & 2 programs), from this DVD which is only 3.547gig, I get a message saying that the source file is TOO LARGE TO FIT ON A STD RECORDABLE DVD ...DO YOU WISH TO COMPRESS FILES !!!

So for any PROFESSIONAL contemplating these precarious things with now even MORE data, I would suggest be very wary & don't rush in. (Frankly it amazes me how you guys ever make any money in this business !)

Of course this does not seem to apply (fortunately), to where you have the luxury going to full glass mastering where quantities & costs allow.

Who unleashed this monster called DVD on us ?

RonC.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 03:40 PM   #5
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RonC. There are a few things to keep in mind to make DVD's that play universally. Good authoring program( DVDLab PRo2 for SD, DVD Architect 5 for Bluray is what I use), low data rate( always less than 7000, mine are normally between 3800 and 5000, I use TMPGenc Xpress4 that also allows you to see how much of the disc your filling with encoding, 2pass VBR), don't fill disc( no more than 4G, burn with Nero( with full verify) so that you can see how much your filling the disc) and use good media ( Verbatim or TAIYO YUDEN). Even as a hobby I make lots of discs ( SD and Bluray) and cannot think of a problem in the last two or three years. Discs from 6 years ago were not of good quality, neither were the burners so I have had some issues with discs from 2001. But the PC will still read and I have just reburned them on good media.

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Old January 5th, 2009, 03:52 PM   #6
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I just started offering Blu-ray discs and after the initial learning curve it isn't too bad. I only about 2 dozen in circulation but so far I haven't had any complaints or returns. I use the LG Blu-ray burner. Edit in Vegas, render out a AVC file, author in DVDA5. I seem to have a problem sometimes rendering using the "Best" setting so I usually just use "Good" which doesn't give my system any problems and the disc look increadible. I have a Sony Blu-ray player that I test each disc on before sending them to a client.

As far as regular DVD's I have burned and sold hundreds and only had 4 so far that have come back with compatibility issues. Again, I use Vegas to edit and DVDA to author. Most of my discs are DL so I use ImageBurn to create an image and burn copies. ImageBurn lets me place the layer break where I want it so there's no pause or delay when it goes to the second layer.

As far as compatibility Ron Evens hit it on the head, you have to use quality media. For clients I pretty much only use Verbatim.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 04:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Chau View Post
Is this at full resolution ? Does it include titles or do you have to go to DVD architect for that ?
Ron, Vegas is not an authoring program so yhere are no menus but titles can be put into the program with Vegas It plays at full resolution (which is 1080i for me)
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Old January 5th, 2009, 04:57 PM   #8
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Thanks Ron & Garrett. I am encouraged.

However, I am aware of the data rate and I have been burning around 7 - 7.5K, but on the Sony RDR-GX7 I use, it only gives the data rate (as I see it), by playing time & type. - HQ 60min, HSP 90 min, SP 120min, etc. I usually burn at HSP, as I have for this last one which so far is OK in the 2 machines I tested it in. Quality is excellent. Maybe I should be burning on SP but I want good quality. - Surely if these higher bit rates are so buggy why did they introduce them?

I am also not using cheap discs - Imation DVD-R & Sony DVD-RW. When I use these up I will check out Verbatim. Are there any issues these days with DVD-R & DVD+R? I have only been using DVD-R.

I have Roxio (which is my preference) in one PC and Ashampoo in another which is only a new trial and so far useless, so perhaps I should investigate DVD Lab Pro2. I see it is not cheap (for a hobbyist), and on this site ( DVDlab PRO DVD authoring tool for advanced users) it says it doesn't have an Mpeg2 encoder, only the ES version ?? What have I missed here?

I'm curious that you use this for SD and DVDA fo HD. - I assume that Pro2 doesn't do BR but is it better than DVDA fo SD?

Regarding my latest problem do you think that even 3.6 Gg is too large for a reliable DVD?

RonC.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 06:10 PM   #9
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Hi Ron,

I've used both DVD-R's and +R's and haven't had many problems. The -R's are suppose to be more compatible with players but with newer players I don't think there is any difference. I've used the Sony discs for no paying copies and haven't had problems with them so they should be ok. The reason I use Verbatim is they are only one of two makers for inkjet printable DL discs. And the other manufacturer is not reliable.

As long as you don't go over 8 M/S sample on the video end you should be ok as this is the DVD spec and all players should be able to read it. Then I usually encode audio in an AC3 files to save space.

I never liked Roxio to burn DVD's yet alone author. I found that when I tried to burn using Roxio I would get a lot of problems trying to play them on my set top dvd player. I do all rendering from Vegas in a DVD or BR compliant file so that the authoring software does not rerender. Then I burn with an LG DVD burner (forgot the number) or an LG BR burner.

3.6GB shouldn't be too big. A single layer disc can hold about 4.2GB of info but remember that isn't 4,200 MB as you have to use the old 1024KB/MB etc. conversion. I have put just under 4.0GB on a disc before and had no problems.

Garrett
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Old January 5th, 2009, 08:47 PM   #10
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Too early - or maybe too late!

Just read an interesting article that says the jury is still out on whether Blu-Ray will really ever become as common as standard DVD's

Price of the components is still an issue that's slowing it down, and direct downloading of HD material is starting to become quite popular.

The article went on to say that LG is set to announce a TV this week that has direct internet attach capability and can play downloaded material directly with no set top box.

Here's a link

New LG HDTVs Bypass Set-Top Boxes to Stream Netflix Movies - PC World

Overall gist of the article was that it's far from a given that Blu-Ray will ever displace current DVD's and the longer it takes for Blu-Ray pricing to get as low as current DVD, the more uncertain the future looks for Blu-Ray.

Just an interesting perspective on the DVD wars.
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Old January 6th, 2009, 12:20 AM   #11
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Jim -

This has been my argument... My last decent DVD player with progressive component outputs and digital audio out cost a whopping $30 on sale, and it's a name brand. I pick up DVD titles for between $3 and $15 if it's a movie I liked well enough to watch again on a rainy day (or if it's so cheezy that it makes a great party icebreaker movie!). And DVD/multiformat burners are around $40 for my computers... Not to mention Netflix has streaming included in a cheap subscription...

Compare that to... $200 for ANY BR standalone (and from what I hear you have to spend $350 for a "good" one)... BR discs are limited in selection and $20-30... and a burner is still in the $200 range, not even sure how much the discs cost...

I can burn BR content to regular DVDs now, and it looks fine, I dont need long play times, so it's perfectly usable and I can put an HD version "in the can" for later. I can't justify a 2-10x premium on hardware/content that BR entails, and I think many people will feel the same way, especially in this economy.

Put a burner around $100 list, so street price is reasonable, a player at around the same price, and bring the content on in quantity at prices closer to DVD, and BR will take over fast IMO, it's not going to happen at current prices. With the speed of technology, BR could be a footnote before it gains market penetration...
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Old January 6th, 2009, 12:30 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Cooper View Post
Just my two cents worth, I am not a pro but everytime I have to make even a STD DVD I cringe at the thought, as it seems a lottery as to whether it will play reliably on other players. I have made probably less than 30 discs over the last 4 years but the hassles seem never ending, even now. I must say though, I have not used DVDA yet, but I started with Ulead DVD Workshop which at the time was highly recommended and seemed fine, until I found that although the results were OK on three or four players of my own, once they were given out, there were always a few people who had problems playing them.

On questioning some of my pro friends I found that they had even gone to direct burning on stand alone DVD recorders with hardware encoding direct from firewire to address the issue. I have also gone down this path too with better results but of course it is limited. - No menus and auto chapter points only.

Even now, after I have just made a successful DVD RW (after a lot of frustration with Vegas 8 but now resolved - (see my recent post), I find when I go to make a copy in the PC, - (tried 2 PC's & 2 programs), from this DVD which is only 3.547gig, I get a message saying that the source file is TOO LARGE TO FIT ON A STD RECORDABLE DVD ...DO YOU WISH TO COMPRESS FILES !!!

So for any PROFESSIONAL contemplating these precarious things with now even MORE data, I would suggest be very wary & don't rush in. (Frankly it amazes me how you guys ever make any money in this business !)

Of course this does not seem to apply (fortunately), to where you have the luxury going to full glass mastering where quantities & costs allow.

Who unleashed this monster called DVD on us ?

RonC.
Ron -

Having dealt with compatibility issues from all the programs I tried before using Vegas, I feel your pain. Since going to Vegas Studio (w/DVDA), and eventually to Pro, with DVDA, I've not had compatibility issues.

I can't speak to the problem you're having, I typically burn to nearly the full 4.7G... DVDA will always recompress certain things (audio) for some reason, but if you use Vegas's settings to render to DVDA compatible files (there are templates in vegas, fully tweakable), it's pretty much a drag and drop and burn affair... both for SD DVD and now for burning BR compatible onto regular DVD's...

FWIW, Vegas has been the most compatible for me, others were pretty spotty, and it was VERY discouraging until I switched. So again I feel your frustration, but in the end Vegas and DVDA seem to be the best integrated solution once you nail the workflow. And they seem to try to update and bug fix regularly.
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Old January 6th, 2009, 01:07 AM   #13
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Blu-ray Disc Statistics - Blu-ray Software Market Share Vs. DVD

Interesting link to current Blu-Ray sales statistics. Currently, Blu-Ray title market share is in the 8% to 12% range. Not so impressive!

According to an article in today's online NY Times, there are 1,092 discs available in Blu-ray format, Apple’s iTunes Store has 600 titles available to rent or download, and Vudu, can access about 1,400 high-definition films.

They also quote industry consultants who say that Blu-ray can sustain itself as a transition technology, but, will never replace the DVD

They also report that other consultants are saying that the Blu-ray format is in jeopardy because of downloadable HD movies and that other means of direct digital delivery are going to put optical formats out of business entirely over the next few years.

If you can find the article, it's a good read.
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Old January 6th, 2009, 02:10 AM   #14
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Thanks Garrett & Dave. It's nice to have further re-assurance on DVDA. The ability to make HD on std. discs is quite appealing.

With the HD market I feel it was a very clever move on Sony's part to make PS3 play Blue Ray. I wonder how many people have one & don't know this? - I have one, - came as a bonus with a new Sony TV!

I never use Roxio for authoring, only burning on the PC with a Liteon burner which seems OK. But, because I generally don't need menus, Chapters etc., I just come out of Vegas & go into the Sony recorder directly via firewire. It just encodes on the fly realtime, - simple, - no authoring, no hassles. (generally). For extra copies I then simply copy them in the PC at the lowest speed.

Having never used DVDA5 yet, I am a little reluctant at present (because of time pressure), to go through the bother of encoding it from Vegas into DVDA and then going through its settings just to do virtually a direct burn. I will try and do another copy on the DVD recorder at a lower setting (SP) which is a lower bit rate & hope that the quality doesn't suffer too much and hopefully end up with a copyable disc.

RonC.
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Old January 6th, 2009, 03:33 AM   #15
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The fact that BD players do such an excellent job of upscaling regular DVDs is somewhat shooting themselves in the foot. My regular DVD (Toshiba) player feeds my 46" 1080p TV and upscales my home burnt movies so well that many people have asked if it's Blu-ray I'm showing them.

Of course Blu-ray is better - as it should be at the price. But DVD is fighting back, and an up-rezzing player will breathe new life into your entire metre-long DVD collection.

tom.
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