HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray... Which one?

[Paul Dhadialla]

Hi - this message is for Kevin.

Kevin - can you please expand on this comment below sir

<kevin> "It typically takes much less time to encode a finished HD project to HDV than to either H.264 or VC1, at least until we get affordable real-time encoders. Hence if production efficiency is desired, HDV is a the quickest output format and that makes Blu-ray a useful delivery format"


How are you currently doing this? I'm thinking of picking up an external Lacie Drive for my MAC and thinking this is a quick easy way to push footage to BR. I assume this will play on any BR player including PS3

Your help is greatly appreciated. Source footage will be HDV - going to FCP5.

Thanks
Paul

[Tom Roper]

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

(4) It typically takes much less time to encode a finished HD project to HDV than to either H.264 or VC1, at least until we get affordable real-time encoders. Hence if production efficiency is desired, HDV is a the quickest output format and that makes Blu-ray a useful delivery format.

Blu-Ray in this manner could be a useful delivery format. But will it play? Not all Blu-Ray players will play burned content on BD-R media. That is the first priority for a useful delivery format.

But as to the other point about production efficiency, while HDV is the quickest output agreed, it is:

1.) Supported directly already by HD-DVD with AC3 5.1 audio and working menus.
2.) A project jointly sponsored by Microsoft and Amazon called "1000 HD-DVD Indies Project," whereby at no charge, up to 1000 selected entries will be authored to HD DVD using Microsoft's VC-1 coding and then made available to Amazon customers through the CustomFlix Disc on Demand service. Units are produced as customers order, so there is no inventory to worry about. Filmmakers set their own list price and earn royalties on all sales. Plus, filmmakers are free to pursue traditional distribution deals while participating in this Project. There is no limit to the number of titles, but after the first 1000 entries are selected, the Customflix authoring fee of $499 will apply. Customflix also offers other services, such as custom cover design.

So for a wedding videographer, BD-R even at $20 retail per disk is probably not an obstacle for delivery. But large scale distribution in the near term for Indie film makers is going to be much more suited to HD-DVD format.

With either format, what you have to keep in perspective is that it represents only 1% compared to std definition DVD. So anything you do on HD will be secondary and parallel to std def DVD.

Right now, you can't encode anything with VC-1. But through the Customflix service, they take your HDV project from tape and author it to HD-DVD for you using VC-1 encoding. Along with distribution on Amazon, that's pretty compelling you have to admit.

So I think what's lost in the impassioned debates on HD-DVD versus Blu-Ray is the broader utility being planned for HD-DVD that happens with or without Hollywood movie studio support. HD-DVD burners are currently shipping with Toshiba laptop computers.

As planned, HD-DVD can co-exist with Blu-Ray in the market. And unless Blu-Ray starts making a profit, it could fail in the marketplace even without HD-DVD. While it has allied more studio support, it should be noted two of its partners remain on the sidelines, Fox and Disney. The PS3 has successfully skewed the sales of HD titles in the favor of Blu-Ray on the order of 65% to 35%, while Toshiba has sold more standalone units, and has been adopted by China.

So far from being over, with only 1% of the DVD market going to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray combined, it's barely underway. The fate of HD-DVD as a viable format will not be decided by the boycotting hollywood studios or blockbuster video rentals.

[Kevin Shaw]

Originally Posted by Paul Dhadialla

How are you currently doing this? I'm thinking of picking up an external Lacie Drive for my MAC and thinking this is a quick easy way to push footage to BR. I assume this will play on any BR player including PS3

For now I'm just rendering my finished projects to M2T files (from Edius) and putting those on external USB2 drives for playback on the PS3. Unfortunately, I haven't heard of anyone successfully making a Blu-ray disc from the Mac platform, and that includes someone who's been trying his best to do so using Adobe CS3. Most Mac users appear to be using HD-DVD authoring with delivery on red laser discs because that's what's available, with no blue-laser disc support working yet. I'll be attempting to make a Blu-ray disc on a PC soon and will have more to say about that once I've tried it.

[Kevin Shaw]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

So for a wedding videographer, BD-R even at $20 retail per disk is probably not an obstacle for delivery. But large scale distribution in the near term for Indie film makers is going to be much more suited to HD-DVD format.

If you're saying that indies are going to try distributing HD content in volume on red-laser discs to reduce costs, that will be interesting to see if it works. I wonder how customers will feel about paying good money for a compromise solution like that.

Right now, you can't encode anything with VC-1. But through the Customflix service, they take your HDV project from tape and author it to HD-DVD for you using VC-1 encoding. Along with distribution on Amazon, that's pretty compelling you have to admit.

What will be compelling is a reliable way to make blue-laser discs yourself for a reasonable price, which apparently is still a ways off. The Microsoft/CustomFlix solution sounds interesting but has a bit of a 'publicity stunt' feel to it.

Agreed that as far as long-term prospects go there's still plenty of time for things to change. For the HD-DVD format, shipping some burners which can be bought separately would be a good start.

[Kevin Shaw]

By the way, I checked out the CustomFlix web site and they're listing their current offering as a "WMV-HD DVD", not HD-DVD (see link below). I've yet to hear of any independent producer making a proper blue-laser HD-DVD, while a few are apparently succeeding at making Blu-ray.

http://www.customflix.com/Products/HighDefinition.jsp

[Tom Roper]

Not WMV-HD, but HD-DVD.

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...02072007-1.htm

[Kevin Shaw]

Their web site is confusing about this - can anyone now order an HD-DVD from them other than through the promotion?

[Tom Roper]

Ordering is the same process after the initial 1000 entries are closed with the exception you would then have to pay the 499 dollar fee. It's free for the first 1000 to launch the program.

[Kevin Shaw]

Interesting. Any indication what they'll charge per copy to distribute an HD-DVD disc?

[Mike Teutsch]

http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/18/h...-rays-decline/

[Joseph Hutson]

It looks like it will be a LONG time til this matter gets solved.

Why can't the two formats come together? haha aah

Is there a writer that writes both formats- Blu-Ray and HD-DVD?

Joseph

[Tom Roper]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hutson

It looks like it will be a LONG time til this matter gets solved.

Why can't the two formats come together? haha aah

Is there a writer that writes both formats- Blu-Ray and HD-DVD?

Joseph

Agree. And I really don't care which format except I want a distrbution format to be compatible with all the players and all the future proposed specs, just like DVD now. And that's my current objection with Blu-Ray, the specs aren't finalized and the disks you burn with Blu-Ray burners are not playable in all Blu-Ray players.

HD-DVD is more stable in that sense, but behind in that the only current option for distribution is on low capacity red laser media, which in some ways, is more of a feature than a flaw depending on your perspective.

I'm content to author for both formats but Blu-Ray is not obliging on all players.

[Kevin Shaw]

After a lot of thought about all this I went ahead and ordered a Pioneer Blu-ray burner with a copy of the Adobe CS3 upgrade, and last night I made my first Blu-ray test disc successfully on the first try. As far as I'm concerned Blu-ray wins by virtue of having the only fully functional HD delivery option for independent producers, with readily available burners, discs and authoring software. The current issues with BD-R playback on some Blu-ray players is a nuisance which I assume will get solved by future player updates, as was the case for early DVD-R producers. Plus I'm figuring that the majority of Blu-ray players in circulation are Playstation 3s, which is the obvious thing to buy unless you need something more formal for a business setting (and the PS3 is the best-looking HD disc player anyway, so even there it's a toss-up). As far as HD-DVD is concerned I have the same capability to deliver for that (using red-laser discs) as just about everyone else, so no loss there by investing in a Blu-ray burner.

The big question now is whether there will ever be a single HD encoding format (codec) which will work reliably on computers, HD-capable game machines and standalone HD disc players. As things stand today WMV-HD seems best for computers and the Xbox 360 but doesn't work readily on the PS3, while MPEG2-HD and AVCHD should work on pretty much anything except the Xbox 360. I used to argue against AVC encoding but now see that it will likely prevail because it's becoming a consumer standard in some video cameras plus a widely used format in video iPods. AVCHD is currently problematic for widespread playback because it's so extremely processor-intensive, but its use in consumer devices will presumably drive improvements in that regard in the long run.

So the Blu-ray disc format wins by default because HD-DVD never showed up for the battle, plus the Playstation 3 is outselling any other type of HD content player by a wide margin. And while MPEG2-HD is currently my preferred rendering format for production efficiency, I anticipate a gradual shift to AVCHD in spite of Microsoft's best efforts to push VC1. With Blockbuster's announcement to back Blu-ray and HD-DVD only hanging on by paying $150 million to movie studios to use their discs, the format war is pretty well over and we just have to wait another year or so to write the final concluding chapters of this saga. Thank goodness it wasn't really much of a war, more like a schoolyard fight...

[Joseph Hutson]

I even like the name "Blu-Ray" better than the plain "HD-DVD" Player.

I will begin to buy Blu-Ray merchandise once HD-DVD is officially considered obsolete.

I can hardly wait!!!

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

Plus I'm figuring that the majority of Blu-ray players in circulation are Playstation 3s

I've seen the first blue ray movies appear in some video rental stores in Belgium but no hd dvd yet, the store owners said that their clients renting the blue ray disks all owned a PS3. I also read a test between several BR players and they included a PS3 as well, surprisingly the PS3 came out best with best image quality and cheapest of the bunch, considering that it can play games as well it is a player that can't be beat right now.
I think the playstation will have a very important role pushing hd-dvd in the corner.