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Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems
For all Canon Cinema EOS models: C700 / C300 Mk. II / C200 / C100 Mk II and EF / PL lenses.


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Old September 16th, 2011, 09:20 AM   #31
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

I think it will be their entry into the digital cinema space (2K+, S35 or full frame sensor).

Mr. Valentine (RED) has set the price, and Canon will compete in that space eventually. Everyone will.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 09:35 AM   #32
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos View Post
The dream camera:
1. Using same codec as XF 100/300 series.
They are releasing this in Hollywood, so lets aim a little higher then a codec used in the XF100!!!

Anything less then a cinema style camera with the option of PL and Canon mounts in the league of epic or scarlet would be a let down. Unless it's a new line based on the 5dmkII beefed up for cinema use to compete with scarlet for the indie market would be great! Full 35mm, 2 or 4k images, no jello cam, hi-end raw or at the minimum Proress HQ codec, and proper audio with XLR would be nice
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Old September 16th, 2011, 09:42 AM   #33
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Cook View Post
Canon have so many options and 'room to move' on this. Sure they could go the predictable FS100 competitor and a higher end F3 competitor. But what if they upped the stakes...with the entry level between the FS100 and F3 and the top model somewhere in the middle of the F3 and an EPIC.
Paul, I think canon was surprised by how big the 5d and 7d was for filmmakers. Red changed the game, and the 5d took advantage of that thinking, without being designed for it. I have no clue, but I think the 5d must have doubled or tripled canons expectations for sales. Plus guys like me who bought a full line of L-series zooms. If canon were not realize the potential of a camera that did so well, but lacked so much, what could they do if they deliver a camera that was 80% t 90% of what people want.

The only other option is a 4k camera to compete with red epic at a higher market value like epic. The 5d is better to compete with scarlet.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 10:13 AM   #34
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
On the surface, that seems like a reasonable conclusion to jump to, but the problem with with this is revealed if you dig a little deeper into the contest details: the most public event for Project Imagin8ion which people would be invited to attend would be its premiere, and that's happening in New York City, not Los Angeles.
Maybe the Project Imagina8ion final product was shot on this possible new camera and is being used to showcase it's capabilities?

Who knows.... but something is near...
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Old September 16th, 2011, 10:48 AM   #35
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

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Originally Posted by Michael Dalton View Post
The only other option is a 4k camera to compete with red epic at a higher market value like epic. The 5d is better to compete with scarlet.
The high end 4k market has or will have a number of cameras competing, the EPIC, the Sony F65 and the Aaton 4K Delta Penelope, never mind if Arri come up with one in the near future. It's an area where Canon have only operated in optics, however, the larger market is a camera that is capable of quality 2k or 1080p HD, which has been demonstrated by the uptake of the F3, even with a non broadcast HD internal codec..

The Scarlet is only on 2/3", but it should outperform the 5D in many respects unless you want a very shallow DOF.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 11:10 AM   #36
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Dalton View Post
They are releasing this in Hollywood, so lets aim a little higher then a codec used in the XF100!!!

Anything less then a cinema style camera with the option of PL and Canon mounts in the league of epic or scarlet would be a let down. Unless it's a new line based on the 5dmkII beefed up for cinema use to compete with scarlet for the indie market would be great! Full 35mm, 2 or 4k images, no jello cam, hi-end raw or at the minimum Proress HQ codec, and proper audio with XLR would be nice
I am a not a hollywood production company, nor do I ever expect to be. My hopes are based on my needs as an enthusiast who is deeply involved in no to low budget production.

For years Canon has been heavily invested in the low end film maker market. An early adopter of 24p in most of its cameras, as well as 16:9 aspect ratio, I think it has shown a commitment to film making on the independent level. This comes from someone who was a very heavy Sony man for many years. In recent years, since the Canon 5D, which admittedly was a bit of surprise to them, that tradition was continued. I think the the DSLR craze probably delayed plans that Canon had to push further in to the "indie" low end market. The recent T3i demonstrates Canon commitment to additions (within economical limits) to the DSLR line that had been lobbied for by film makers.

But with more cinema dedicated cameras like the FS-100 and the VG-20 soon to be released ( coincidentally a November shipping date ?) hitting the market, I think it is clear Canon recognizes it will have to enter the dedicated big chip cinema style camera. Perhaps with the new Digic 5 chip, and a redesigned large chip (Super 35mm ?), it hopes to jump out ahead again.

Price wise ? I am hoping Canon believes a volume low end camera will be better than competing in the $ 7 to $15 k market. I am hoping for an under $ 4 k price tag in a unit similar to the FS -100 or the AF100.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 11:45 AM   #37
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

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Originally Posted by Don Parrish View Post
Now here is a silly question, what will a 4k resolution production be displayed on, digital theatres only ??
Even if you will deliver 1080p or 2K, having 4K acquisition can be helpful when compositing. It also makes your content more future proof.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 11:57 AM   #38
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

I'd differentiate between oversampling with the sensor and the format you're recording onto. Most productions only have a limited shelf life and even the uptake on HDTV in the market has a way to go, currently the hype is for 3D anyway and 1080p is where most productions will be distributed or screened . So, unless you're planning for theatrical distribution, 4K is probably overkill as a recording format for a few years yet.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 03:53 PM   #39
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

I hear it has a woodpecker in the back of it that looks through the lens and chips the image into a piece of wood. A user installable woodpecker update will allow you to use stone slabs instead of wood.

A dual woodpecker model will be available in 2013... probably to the chagrin of all those who bought the single woodpecker model.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 05:42 PM   #40
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
On the surface, that seems like a reasonable conclusion to jump to, but the problem with with this is revealed if you dig a little deeper into the contest details: the most public event for Project Imagin8ion which people would be invited to attend would be its premiere, and that's happening in New York City, not Los Angeles.

I was waiting for someone to ask me that! This question gives me a chance to lecture on my favorite topic, which is History. Because history is cyclical and tends to repeat itself, the future becomes easier to predict. At any rate, back in the summer of 2006, Canon USA hosted a travelling roadshow for the XL H1, and one of the stops was Paramount Studios. I was there for that, as was Robert Sanders, who posted earlier in this thread.

So no, I don't think it's directly connected to the Ron Howard / Project Imagina8ion contest, and yes, there is a precedent for Canon USA doing something camera-related at Paramount Studios. Hope this helps,

I think this email blast was just a "save the date" kind of thing with more details such as registration, etc. to follow later on (hopefully). That's my take on it anyway. Do these pics bring back any memories for you, Robert?
Wow, has it been that long ago? Hard to believe.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 05:45 PM   #41
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

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Originally Posted by Justin Molush View Post
Putting something like this out there could almost mean anything...

However, I would like something like the following...

XF100/XF105 form factor/size around there
EF Mount
True 35mm sensor (ala 5D2)
1080/60p
Global Shutter
Codec in 4:2:2
2x XLR Ins
HD-SDI/SDI/HDMI Out in 4:4:4

Its not gonna happen but while we're all having fun speculating, I might as well too!

Yup. Small-ish form factor. Large sensor. Proper audio controls. Interchangeable lenses/mounts. 1080p backbone with a healthy codec/data-rate. All for under $10k.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 06:01 PM   #42
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

This is just my opinion, but I doubt very much Canon is going to announce a 4K camera. Anyone who knows Canon, and more importantly their history, knows that Canon is a very conservative company. But being conservative isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Even though RED has successfully changed the product landscape of the electronic's world, Canon isn't going to compete with RED directly. They're competing with Panasonic and Sony. Which means they're competing with the F3 and the FS100. I would look at those cameras and their configurations to gain an insight into what Canon's up to.

Canon is smart by coming to the party late. This is their history. What this gives them is an insight into how to make a better product. They examine the weaknesses of their competitors products and develop something that is unique enough to compete (and steal market share). The VX1000 jolted the world. But that XL1 stole the show. Panasonic proved 24p was available for the masses. Canon coupled it with true 16x9 chips (even though the XL2 was a sales disappointment). The HVX brought HD down from heaven, but Canon's H1 resolution was hand down superior (remember the old 24F vs 24P arguments of yore?).

So what are the weaknesses of the competitors?

F3 is a tough camera to beat. In fact, the F3 is awesome! But it's expensive. So price is where Canon can compete by keeping it in the $10k sweet spot.

FS100 was a good first step by Panasonic. But the sensor is a little too small, the mount is limiting, and the codec is a little weak. But the price rocks. So I expect Canon to use their badass chip foundry mojo to introduce a custom large-format sensor (probably APS-C or APS-H) coupled with a healthy codec (of which flavor i have no clue).

Anyway. Just my thoughts.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 06:44 PM   #43
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Problem for Canon is, a large-sensor 1080p camera is hardly new or earth-shattering at this point -- not even a cheap one is novel, as Sony will have a 24p model, the VG20, at about $2K. Nothing less than 4K would be exciting. And 50-Mbps MPEG2 for 4K? Utter crappola. Canon needs to license AVC Ultra or maybe even consider something mature and proven, like 12-bit CineForm RAW.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 06:52 PM   #44
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Regarding the next 5D, the only sure fire predictions are better noise reduction, more AF points, and improved AF. Why? Because Nikon's full frame competitive model currently wins in those areas.

Find other specs where Nikon wins on the photo front and you can bet that Canon will tweak those areas.

As to video features, Nikon is behind. What Canon does for video is anybody's guess.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 08:47 PM   #45
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Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Sanders View Post
This is just my opinion, but I doubt very much Canon is going to announce a 4K camera. Anyone who knows Canon, and more importantly their history, knows that Canon is a very conservative company. But being conservative isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Even though RED has successfully changed the product landscape of the electronic's world, Canon isn't going to compete with RED directly. They're competing with Panasonic and Sony. Which means they're competing with the F3 and the FS100. I would look at those cameras and their configurations to gain an insight into what Canon's up to.

Canon is smart by coming to the party late. This is their history. What this gives them is an insight into how to make a better product. They examine the weaknesses of their competitors products and develop something that is unique enough to compete (and steal market share). The VX1000 jolted the world. But that XL1 stole the show. Panasonic proved 24p was available for the masses. Canon coupled it with true 16x9 chips (even though the XL2 was a sales disappointment). The HVX brought HD down from heaven, but Canon's H1 resolution was hand down superior (remember the old 24F vs 24P arguments of yore?).

So what are the weaknesses of the competitors?

F3 is a tough camera to beat. In fact, the F3 is awesome! But it's expensive. So price is where Canon can compete by keeping it in the $10k sweet spot.

FS100 was a good first step by Panasonic. But the sensor is a little too small, the mount is limiting, and the codec is a little weak. But the price rocks. So I expect Canon to use their badass chip foundry mojo to introduce a custom large-format sensor (probably APS-C or APS-H) coupled with a healthy codec (of which flavor i have no clue).

Anyway. Just my thoughts.
Sorry Robert, but the FS100 is the consumer version of the Sony F3. The Panasonic camera is the AF100/101. I agree with your other comments though. :)

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