Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Matt Davis · September 18th, 2011, 12:17 PM

I'm getting serious waves of nostalgia.

As a Z1 owner, I remembered the buzz of hoping to see a mock-up of an HDV camcorder at IBC. It was there - a rebadged XL2 with a paint job. But wait! Maybe that's okay! Oh, right. Okay, it wasn't.

Canon seem to create stunning game changers by accident. If they're actually proud of it and want to big it up Hollywood style, it's probably a bit of a damp squib.

5D Mk 2 was just a great upgrade to a sensational stills camera with just a kooky little feature for those photo journalists that were trying to fill their publications with some video flavour. It was still their photos that sold the 'click'.

Canon seem to either come late to the party but inappropriately dressed (XLH1) or come to the wrong party and freak out (5dMk2). My fear is that Canon don't actually know when to freak out and when to put on a tie.

Because they're weighting this November date so highly, I get the feeling that this is not exactly a red-letter day. They actually have to release something they think is boring, but actually is absolutely amazing.

But then again, I am rubbish at predictions.

Simon Wood · September 18th, 2011, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylan Couper

So no one thinks 3D, eh? :)

That is an interesting idea. It would be just like Canon to jump on the 3D bandwagon just when it looks like 3D is going down the drain (I'm talking ticket sales here, its nothing personal against any 3D aficionados that are reading this).

An Historic Global announcement regarding a new 3D camcorder? Jeez, that would really suck.

Daniel Browning · September 18th, 2011, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Daviss

Canon seem to create stunning game changers by accident.

So true. The sky-high 5D2 sales figures seemed to have caught Canon off guard. I think the 5D classic was far below Canon's sales expectations, based on several factors (e.g. how drastic and frequent the price cuts and rebates were), and that contributed to it. But then again, they did have that "destined evolution" and "moon is waxing" advertising campaign in the two week run up to the 5D2.

Another time was when Canon boosted the DSLR astrophotography revolution, by accident, with the 20D. Cottage industries were popping up to resell the 20D with improved infrared filtration, for around $2,000. So then Canon gets the bright idea to sell their own "astro" version (20Da) for hefty premium (~$2,200). The only problem is that they did really half-hearted job on the infrared filtration, so you still had to send it in for another $500 custom jobbie. No one bought it.

Compared to the accidental revolutions, there are many more revolutions that Canon missed altogether. Take Auto ISO for example. Canon was the first with a CMOS DSLR, and in particular a design that received a tremendous benefit from analog gain (ISO). Other DLSRs (particularly Nikon CCD) didn't really benefit from changing the ISO setting (analog gain) that much -- the read noise was about the same as digital gain. So any Canon used in low light would have had *significantly* less noise by using an Auto ISO mode instead of Tv or Av. Most of the other manufacturers went and added it, but it didn't really make a difference for their cameras because of the flat read noise profile. In contrast, it has been almost a decade and Canon *still* hasn't released a fully functional Auto ISO. (The latest version goes brain-dead if you use flash.)

Of course, by the time Canon finally joins the late Nineties with an Auto ISO feature, their sensor development will probably have moved on to the point where it isn't needed (except for JPEG). :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Daviss

If they're actually proud of it and want to big it up Hollywood style, it's probably a bit of a damp squib.

That's a great way to put it! :) Unfortunately, you may be right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Daviss

But then again, I am rubbish at predictions.

Me too. :)

Don Parrish · September 19th, 2011, 05:57 AM

How about a new camcorder and a new DSLR. Both with the same chip and manufactured to work with each other seemlessly. Camcorder as a primary and as many DSLR secondaries as you want.

Buba Kastorski · September 19th, 2011, 07:26 AM

a "Historic Global Announcement" just can't be about a camera or camcorder, or any other new product line, I'm guessing it'll be more about collaboration/acquisition with/of some big guys,
and about new cameras/camcorders releases we'll find out as always - @ NAB

Don Parrish · September 19th, 2011, 08:55 AM

Didn't Canon announce the XLH1 in Sept 05 ???

just asking.

Chris Hurd · September 19th, 2011, 09:11 AM

Yes, it was Sep. 2005 for the XL H1.

Don Parrish · September 20th, 2011, 05:10 AM

If the XLH1 was announced in Sept 05 and shown at Paramount, to me it would not be much of a leap to assume (yes I used the "assume" word) that a format change is occurring and then not much of a leap to assume 4K. There is a lot of interesting reading about 4k, 8k and UHDTV. The phrase "digital film" has been thrown around a lot lately.

So what would a 4k camcorder have as a package ?
Any NLE's available to support it ?
Would it take an i11 computer to handle it ?
Will any of us be able to afford it, F3 price ?
10 bit ?? @ how many Mbps, will the gemini handle 4k ??
Available lenses ??

what do you think ??

Monday Isa · September 20th, 2011, 06:34 AM

Interesting thoughts Don. I remember when the FX1 first came out and it was very hard for many consumers to edit HDV natively. It maybe the same process. The option will be there when people are ready but can still shoot in 1080P. Dylan also made an interesting point. He said no one thinks it's a 3D camera? I remember reading in the IBC presentation about Canon showing off their 3D solution but I didn't see a single post anywhere from the places I go for information. Quite possible that it was not presented. It was hinted to me there may not be ND-filters on this new s35 cam from someone who knows more about it. He says no need for me to sell my af100. Only time will tell.

Dan Keaton · September 20th, 2011, 08:11 AM

Dear Don,

If, and when, a new camera comes on the market, we will do our best to ensure that our new Gemini 4:4:4 and/or nanoFlash will work with it, if at all possible.

Don Parrish · September 20th, 2011, 08:16 AM

Thanks Dan, I just didn't know how future proof the gemini was, I red 2k in the specs but didn't want to make claims that I wasn't sure about. Does this mean that the gemini has some built in flexibilities ?? I had posed that as a question, I edited it to make it more clear.

About the 4k, re-reading a 2010 Philip Bloom article is quite interesting.

Canon 4k concept camera and first images from Canon Expo in NY | Philip Bloom

Dan Keaton · September 20th, 2011, 09:16 AM

Dear Don,

I certainly cannot promise that the Gemini 4:4:4 will work with all cameras, including all future cameras, this is just not possible.

But I can state that we do have a lot of flexibility in the design of the Gemini 4:4:4 and we will try to accomodate new cameras, if possible and practical.

Chris Hurd · September 20th, 2011, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Parrish

About the 4k, re-reading a 2010 Philip Bloom article is quite interesting.

Add to that our own article right here on DV Info Net:

Canon Inc. shows UHD at Canon Expo at DVInfo.net

Chris Barcellos · September 20th, 2011, 11:30 AM

Funny how Canon's concept camera has a top mounted LCD just like the Sony FS-100.

Chris Hurd · September 20th, 2011, 02:02 PM

Just to reiterate something that I tried to make clear in that article, the lead engineer on that piece told me that the camera design as you see it in those pics "will never see the light of day," in other words, they wanted to show the imaging technology without tipping their hand as to what an actual Canon UHD camera would really look like. Thus, the "hair dryer" concept as a cloaking device for whatever design they're really working on.

September 18th, 2011, 12:17 PM	#76
Matt Davis Trustee Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Berkshire, UK Posts: 1,562	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... I'm getting serious waves of nostalgia. As a Z1 owner, I remembered the buzz of hoping to see a mock-up of an HDV camcorder at IBC. It was there - a rebadged XL2 with a paint job. But wait! Maybe that's okay! Oh, right. Okay, it wasn't. Canon seem to create stunning game changers by accident. If they're actually proud of it and want to big it up Hollywood style, it's probably a bit of a damp squib. 5D Mk 2 was just a great upgrade to a sensational stills camera with just a kooky little feature for those photo journalists that were trying to fill their publications with some video flavour. It was still their photos that sold the 'click'. Canon seem to either come late to the party but inappropriately dressed (XLH1) or come to the wrong party and freak out (5dMk2). My fear is that Canon don't actually know when to freak out and when to put on a tie. Because they're weighting this November date so highly, I get the feeling that this is not exactly a red-letter day. They actually have to release something they think is boring, but actually is absolutely amazing. But then again, I am rubbish at predictions. __________________ Director/Editor - MDMA Ltd: Write, Shoot, Edit, Publish - mattdavis.pro EX1 x2, C100 --> FCPX & PPro6

September 19th, 2011, 05:57 AM	#79
Don Parrish Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tavares Fla Posts: 541	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... How about a new camcorder and a new DSLR. Both with the same chip and manufactured to work with each other seemlessly. Camcorder as a primary and as many DSLR secondaries as you want.

September 19th, 2011, 07:26 AM	#80
Buba Kastorski Trustee Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,414	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... a "Historic Global Announcement" just can't be about a camera or camcorder, or any other new product line, I'm guessing it'll be more about collaboration/acquisition with/of some big guys, and about new cameras/camcorders releases we'll find out as always - @ NAB __________________ I love this place!

September 19th, 2011, 08:55 AM	#81
Don Parrish Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tavares Fla Posts: 541	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... Didn't Canon announce the XLH1 in Sept 05 ??? just asking.

September 19th, 2011, 09:11 AM	#82
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... Yes, it was Sep. 2005 for the XL H1. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

September 20th, 2011, 05:10 AM	#83
Don Parrish Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tavares Fla Posts: 541	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... If the XLH1 was announced in Sept 05 and shown at Paramount, to me it would not be much of a leap to assume (yes I used the "assume" word) that a format change is occurring and then not much of a leap to assume 4K. There is a lot of interesting reading about 4k, 8k and UHDTV. The phrase "digital film" has been thrown around a lot lately. So what would a 4k camcorder have as a package ? Any NLE's available to support it ? Would it take an i11 computer to handle it ? Will any of us be able to afford it, F3 price ? 10 bit ?? @ how many Mbps, will the gemini handle 4k ?? Available lenses ?? what do you think ?? Last edited by Don Parrish; September 20th, 2011 at 08:19 AM.

September 20th, 2011, 06:34 AM	#84
Monday Isa Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: College Park, Maryland Posts: 913	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... Interesting thoughts Don. I remember when the FX1 first came out and it was very hard for many consumers to edit HDV natively. It maybe the same process. The option will be there when people are ready but can still shoot in 1080P. Dylan also made an interesting point. He said no one thinks it's a 3D camera? I remember reading in the IBC presentation about Canon showing off their 3D solution but I didn't see a single post anywhere from the places I go for information. Quite possible that it was not presented. It was hinted to me there may not be ND-filters on this new s35 cam from someone who knows more about it. He says no need for me to sell my af100. Only time will tell. Last edited by Monday Isa; September 20th, 2011 at 06:22 PM.

September 20th, 2011, 08:11 AM	#85
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... Dear Don, If, and when, a new camera comes on the market, we will do our best to ensure that our new Gemini 4:4:4 and/or nanoFlash will work with it, if at all possible. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

September 20th, 2011, 08:16 AM	#86
Don Parrish Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tavares Fla Posts: 541	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... Thanks Dan, I just didn't know how future proof the gemini was, I red 2k in the specs but didn't want to make claims that I wasn't sure about. Does this mean that the gemini has some built in flexibilities ?? I had posed that as a question, I edited it to make it more clear. About the 4k, re-reading a 2010 Philip Bloom article is quite interesting. Canon 4k concept camera and first images from Canon Expo in NY \| Philip Bloom

September 20th, 2011, 09:16 AM	#87
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... Dear Don, I certainly cannot promise that the Gemini 4:4:4 will work with all cameras, including all future cameras, this is just not possible. But I can state that we do have a lot of flexibility in the design of the Gemini 4:4:4 and we will try to accomodate new cameras, if possible and practical. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

September 20th, 2011, 11:30 AM	#89
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... Funny how Canon's concept camera has a top mounted LCD just like the Sony FS-100. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

September 20th, 2011, 02:02 PM	#90
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... Just to reiterate something that I tried to make clear in that article, the lead engineer on that piece told me that the camera design as you see it in those pics "will never see the light of day," in other words, they wanted to show the imaging technology without tipping their hand as to what an actual Canon UHD camera would really look like. Thus, the "hair dryer" concept as a cloaking device for whatever design they're really working on. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!