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Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems
For all Canon Cinema EOS models: C700 / C300 Mk. II / C200 / C100 Mk II and EF / PL lenses.


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Old November 9th, 2011, 08:21 AM   #271
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Re: C300 Discussion

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Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
I was on set in Hollywood last week watching a shoot for an upcoming series on Comedy Central.
Full crew, the works, dolly etc., standard two-camera set-up using Sony F3's. I asked, are these
dual-link out? The answer was no. They were using the S-Log upgrade though.

8-bit vs. 10-bit seems to be the trendy argument du jour but the reality is that 8-bit simply
is not a limitation, depending on the type of work you're doing. There's a lot of television that
won't be heavily graded.
Drama Shows of all kinds will need grading.

8 bit v 10 bit is a a reality and a choice made by professionals ALL the time and they make that choice because grading in 10 bit is far superior to grading in 8 bit. But why would that even be an issue? Surely we can all accept 10 bit grading is preferable to 8 bit grading every single time.

So now that's put to bed....

Would the sort of shows that don't need much grading choose a camera that can grade in camera to give a film look when they dont need a film look or would they be happy to use Xdcam with S log and have minor grading done in post to be safe as you pointed out with comdey central. The sony F3 has the plus that it's a camera that can do 10 bit out if needed and it's cheaper. So if you your argument is correct then why pick a camera that grades internally when its not needed and costs more money and if they DID want 10 bit out.. IT isn't there.


I think my original point that this is a camera that indie film makers want but can't afford and that profeesionals wont want but can afford is correct. It kinda puts this camera in the realm of very very nice toy and one that I would love in my christmas stocking but not one I would seriously go out and risk a feature film on. I just wouldn't. However I would make INDIE short films with it that cost little but those people are not the ones being targeted.

I'm sure though many TV companies will buy this without thinking it through and I'm sure much of the footage will get broadcast or maybe even a niche in the broadcast world found for it.

Canon made a fantastic camera with a single flaw that in my opinion kills it.
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Old November 9th, 2011, 08:37 AM   #272
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Re: C300 Discussion

Does anyone have an idea when the camera will be in the hands of reviewers? Hopefully this will happen soon and not have to wait until end of Jan. Sony has made a smart move of offering rebates on the F3 (and other things like external recorders, the new ENG zoom) that expire before the C300 is available to the public.
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Old November 9th, 2011, 08:46 AM   #273
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Re: C300 Discussion

People will be making camera selection decisions for a number of reasons. If the 8 bit camera allows you to shoot in places that you can't with the 10 bit or RAW camera for example. I know people used to shoot feature films on DSR 500 using DVCAM rather than Digitabeta, even though the latter is 10 bit 4:2:2.. The reasons were partly fashion and partly budget, even though the budget was 1m in one case - it did come down to the last few hundred pounds according to the producer.

Regarding Canon, it could become an issue if their 4k camera isn't competitive with the F3 fitted with s-log or the Scarlet. That's unless this camera intended to be an Epic or Alexa contender in another market entirely, It could depend on what their overall game plan is.
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Old November 9th, 2011, 09:12 AM   #274
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Re: C300 Discussion

The Canon does the S log magic in camera so you wouldn't get an S log picture from it to use in post like you would with the F3.

If the Canon and F3 were similar costs you would still pick the one with the 10 bit out because its there if you did need it.
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Old November 9th, 2011, 09:24 AM   #275
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Re: C300 Discussion

For the less binary oriented 10 bit holds four times the information of 8 bit. (1024 possible values instead of 256).

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Originally Posted by Mark David Williams View Post
.................
If the Canon and F3 were similar costs you would still pick the one with the 10 bit out because its there if you did need it.
I would probably pick the camera with the better image and low light performance. I would be more careful and concerned with exposure on 8 bit.
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Old November 9th, 2011, 09:30 AM   #276
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Re: C300 Discussion

I agree with everything Mark has written.

I think Canon rushed the C300 too much. They should have developed a proper codec and electronics rather than use those from the XF300.

At Amsterdam IBC I had the chance to see what the SLog F3 with an uncompressed 10bit 444 recorder was capable of and it was stunning, specially for the price, much better to what I've seen so far from the C300. I atribute this to the F3 having more latitude and the 10bit vs 8bit.

Just for an apples to apples comparison, go check the videos at Vimeo from the F3+Log tests -made with no budget at all- and compare them to the promotional C300 shorts -which had a lot of money to play with, including very expensive grading suites.

In my opinion the C300 sensor is unfortunately handicapped. The C300 is an XF camera with a S35 sensor and should be at the $10k price mark. I don't have a problem paying for an expensive camera, as long as it delivers.

The F3+SLog+Gemini looks much better to me. Also the F3 has LUTs, 3DLink+SDI and 1080@60p, all of which the C300 lacks. With the F3 it's also way easier to build a very simple and balanced shoulder rig, the C300 has an EVF-FF conflict and requires the EVF to be so far back it's out of the camera body, requiring a long and heavy counterbalance.
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Old November 9th, 2011, 09:33 AM   #277
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Re: C300 Discussion

The lack of 1080 60p is odd, considering the XF300 has it. We can assume that the C300 sensor is read fast, so I wonder what the problem is?
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Old November 9th, 2011, 09:33 AM   #278
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Re: C300 Discussion

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Originally Posted by Mark David Williams View Post
If the Canon and F3 were similar costs you would still pick the one with the 10 bit out because its there if you did need it.
Not always, it would depend on the type of productions you were planning to shoot. The C300 form factor might be be more suitable for the type of films you make. If this enables you to get the shots that's the one to go for, 10 bit with no images in the can is pretty worthless.

However, given the competition in the market it would be better of it had 10 bit HD SDI, but it is in spitting distance of a F3 with a Nanoflash in cost terms. How it impacts overall really depends on how many people buy external recorders for their F3 and of those how many buy 10 bit recorders.
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Old November 9th, 2011, 09:41 AM   #279
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Re: C300 Discussion

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At Amsterdam IBC I had the chance to see what the SLog F3 with an uncompressed 10bit 444 recorder was capable of and it was stunning, specially for the price, much better to what I've seen so far from the C300. I atribute this to the F3 having more latitude and the 10bit vs 8bit.
You haven't seen the C300 in a comparable way.
8 v 10 bit only matters when significant changes are needed. 10 bit isn't going to make a well shot image better than 8 bit. If your technically oriented I'm surprised you don't put more emphasis on the sensor differences between cameras. These are major, and Sony knows it.
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Old November 9th, 2011, 09:51 AM   #280
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Re: C300 Discussion

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Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale View Post
Not always, it would depend on the type of productions you were planning to shoot. The C300 form factor might be be more suitable for the type of films you make. If this enables you to get the shots that's the one to go for, 10 bit with no images in the can is pretty worthless.

However, given the competition in the market it would be better of it had 10 bit HD SDI, but it is in spitting distance of a F3 with a Nanoflash in cost terms. How it impacts overall really depends on how many people buy external recorders for their F3 and of those how many buy 10 bit recorders.
Yes but your narrowing the capability of the F3 to make a case.

If you can get your grade in camera at the shoot and you know you'll be happy get the canon as you can cut out the cost of grading.

If you want to wing it and you grade in camera with a view to making minor corrections then get the canon and render your footage into 10 bit and grade that.

If you want to make a film with 5 million riding on it and you want to wing it go see a shrink ;)
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Old November 9th, 2011, 10:12 AM   #281
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Re: C300 Discussion

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Originally Posted by Don Miller View Post
The lack of 1080 60p is odd, considering the XF300 has it. We can assume that the C300 sensor is read fast, so I wonder what the problem is?
The XF300 don't have 1080 60p either. This frame rate is probably not included in the spec of the Digic DV III cpu and/or the XF codec.
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Old November 9th, 2011, 10:22 AM   #282
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Re: C300 Discussion

I'm not really narrowing the F3, although it does narrow the market of the C300.

If you had $5m you're unlikely to be shooting either of these cameras, unless they're giving you something that an Epic, Alexa or a 35mm film camera won't. You pick the tool for the job and if say the C300 or F3 enables something that's going to improve how the story that's the one you you'll use. "28 days Later" was shot with a Canon XL-1S, even though budget would have allowed for 35mm film. They wanted a lack of detail as part of the look.

8 bit or 10 bit is one part of the decision process. The F3 and C300 are very different cameras, so you'll be looking at a number of aspects. One is more compact for a start.
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Old November 9th, 2011, 10:31 AM   #283
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Re: C300 Discussion

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Originally Posted by Mark David Williams View Post
If you want to make a film with 5 million riding on it and you want to wing it go see a shrink ;)
If you have even a very small fraction of that, I wouldn't use anything but an ALEXA. It costs just €900/day, times 3-4 for a week, and a month is around €12k or less.
Commercials and music videos are shot in a single day, features in a month. If there's no budget for this, there isn't for anything else and the project is not worth it.

Of course that is for a bare bones ALEXA, but full a package with the ALEXA also including ARRI MB, FF, NDs, cards, batteries, Sachtler 20 and a set of UltraPrimes is €1,400/day tops.

On the other hand, the F3/C300 is the kind of camera you can buy rather than rent.
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Old November 9th, 2011, 11:25 AM   #284
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Re: C300 Discussion

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Originally Posted by Mark David Williams View Post
Drama Shows of all kinds will need grading.

8 bit v 10 bit is a a reality and a choice made by professionals ALL the time and they make that choice because grading in 10 bit is far superior to grading in 8 bit.
Mark - the story of "Eastenders" going HD was reported in TVB Europe this time last year - Taking Eastenders HD - theworkflownews-content | TVBEurope Magazine Online & In Print
Quote:
Following extensive trials and testing, to see if they could break the digital compression system, the combination of the HSC-300 and PDW-700 XDCAM HD422 camcorders were selected. The XDCAMs were for location work .....
Eastenders may be one of the most high profile examples (at least in the UK) but there are many, many other "professionals" using 8-bit codecs very happily for drama.

Would I use this camera if I had a $5million budget? Probably not, and probably not 8 bit recording. But with that sort of money the 8-10bit issue would only be one factor. As others have said, it's time to go for something like an Alexa, not a 10bit C300.
Quote:
But why would that even be an issue? Surely we can all accept 10 bit grading is preferable to 8 bit grading every single time.
Cost? Why spend money on something you don't need? Maybe 10 bit grading is preferable to 8 bit - but it's likely to come at a cost, and if you simply don't need that level, why bother?


Don brings up the subject of sensor. I strongly suspect that tests will show the C300 sensor is better than the F3 - we'll see. Not that anyone will be able to see very much difference in most real life work - but why fixate on bitdepth and ignore other atters such as sensor?
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Old November 9th, 2011, 11:49 AM   #285
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Re: C300 Discussion

I'm curious about the postulate that the C300 sensor will be better than the F3. Is this based on what people have seen? on the technology of the C300 sensor? other stuff?

Thanks.
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