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Canon Cinema EOS Camera Systems
For all Canon Cinema EOS models: C700 / C300 Mk. II / C200 / C100 Mk II and EF / PL lenses.


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Old November 3rd, 2011, 08:20 PM   #1
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Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

Have I been product loyal in vain?
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Old November 3rd, 2011, 09:14 PM   #2
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

I think Canon got their foot in the door to Hollywood with the 5d mkII and decided to make a go of it by creating and releasing a much more expensive "pro" camera. Unfortunately they left us loyal customers on the other side of the door. :(
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Old November 3rd, 2011, 09:39 PM   #3
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

I always say "buy from the camera maker that makes what you want. Brand loyalty helps the brand, not you." One look at the Canon professional video line and it's clear, prosumers eat the scraps off the broadcast and cinema table... replete with a "little one" with codec compatibility.

IMHO, if one doesn't like shooting with a DSLR or the "little one" with its 10x zoom or can't see using the large XF300 Handycam, Canon isn't for you. There's other fish in the pond and some are pretty good. YMMV

Last edited by Les Wilson; November 4th, 2011 at 08:24 AM. Reason: reflect opinion
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Old November 3rd, 2011, 10:02 PM   #4
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

About 2008 the current Canon MD basically stated that 'we'll give the customers what we think they want' Caused much negative discussion on the web.

Followed by the comments .. 'the video and still camera depts don't talk to each other' hence their DSLRs.

Maybe it's because their video cams are a very small part of their total camera market .. now maybe they are talking.

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Old November 4th, 2011, 09:38 AM   #5
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

Yup, I've been to many NABs and had lots of discussion.
Canon also monitors this list - you know it used to be the XL-1 WATCHDOG?

So, the question is not if they talk, but do they LISTEN and HEAR and ACT?
I think the USA side probably does, but is overruled by the hierarchy in Japan.

Those leaders move at the pace of a 95 year old with severe arthritis.
This 300 was asked for years and years ago. Had it even come out
two years ago it would have been big. But now? Not so much.

WMMV, - I'm going SCARLET.

J
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Old November 4th, 2011, 02:23 PM   #6
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rice View Post
Have I been product loyal in vain?
I don't get brand loyalty at all... The purpose of the company is to take your money, not to be your buddy. They aren't doing you a favour by making cameras... why should you give them your money for any reason but because their camera is the best one for you?
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Old November 4th, 2011, 03:24 PM   #7
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

I'm old school. Brand Loyalty was something that manufactures and corporations went out of their way to gain and cherish. They built products that would last, and if there was a problem, they honored their warranties. They valued you as a customer.

I guess in this new world throw away economy, Brand Loyalty is a thing of the past.
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Old November 4th, 2011, 03:29 PM   #8
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

It's not you Dave, it's them. They broke ranks.

I don't see it related to a throw away economy. It's the suits and the values they hold. You can't put brand loyalty in a spreadsheet. The closest you'll find are numbers in the marketing program to manipulate people into feeling loyal but that's a one way street. IMHO.
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Old November 4th, 2011, 04:50 PM   #9
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

Hmmmmmm

The Panasonic AG-HPX250 looks interesting.

I have never owned any Panasonic products before.
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Old November 4th, 2011, 07:13 PM   #10
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

Why are you guys unhappy? You asked Canon to build a large sensor video camera that accepts Canon DSLR or PL mount lenses, and they delivered. It has a very good codec, broadcast ready, no need for external drives. It has HD/SDI and HDMI out. It's small and compact. What's not to like?

If you wanted a price in the $5-6,000 range, well, perhaps that was unreasonable. I keep seeing posts saying the camera should be around $10,000. Oh, really? Name another camera with these specs for under $16,000. There isn't one. The F3? Sure, it's comparable in price, but it has that 4:2:0 EX codec. For serious broadcast work, you'll need an external drive. The C300 won't.
The Scarlet? It can do 4K. Again, the complete kit is around $14-15,000. Still way above $5,000 (AF100 territory) and even $10,000. Maybe the camera you dream about simply can't be produced for under $14,000. At least, no company has done it yet.

A good, inexpensive option is to get an AF/FS100 and add a Canon adapter (when they come out) and an external drive. That should be a very good kit for well under $10,000.
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Old November 4th, 2011, 07:52 PM   #11
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

+1 Glen

It'll probably sell closer to Red's new camera street $ anyway. Also, there could be/will be a C200 with about 80% of the new good stuff minus a few more pro features that could sell under 10K if I'm thinking about this correctly.

Certainly Canon wants to make some noise with this and the price and could spit out a press release any day with a new model with XYZ features. (Fingers crossed anyway) I think Canon will do that.
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Old November 4th, 2011, 08:02 PM   #12
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

I see 2 things.

1. They keep bragging that "this is the camera that everyone shooting with the 5DM2 wanted" and has all the workarounds and issues "fixed." This sets the stage for a body that's comparable to a $2,500 price point. I don't see any indy filmmakers shooting with 7D's and 5DM2's upgrading to this—period. Sure, it can us EF glass, but the C300 cost 10x more than the 5D bodies do now. It's only 8bit out HD-SDI. That's pretty limiting in itself. Last I checked, the Sony F3 body is at B&H for $13k after rebates.

2. Canon announced all this before Red's little meeting and Scarlet X release. I'm pretty sure the market is going to react to a $10k body ($14k system) that shoots 4K footage. I'm betting the F3 will go down in price to compete soon after Scarlets start shipping. Red Epic purchasers are a little miffed at the price point and feature set as well, so you know something's gonna happen if it's making waves in Red's own pool. Canon is going to have to respond with a lower price point, or resellers won't be able to get rid of them. I see $10-12k being street price. Ease of use will have to sell it over all of Red's 4K marketing numbers. Otherwise, it won't be selling soon.

What would have made the C300 a killer cam would have been:
4:4:4 out Dual HD-SDI, 1080p60 (at least) and 120fps at 720p.

I've loved all my Canon products over the years, but I don't need to spend so much to get less than others. MAYBE it can shoot like ARRI, but I can't tell from Vimeo. I work in post and I know, no matter what kind of 8bit it is, it's sure not 10bit or uncompressed. And for $20k, it should have been.
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Old November 4th, 2011, 10:17 PM   #13
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

Glen, I said nothing of the C300. Dave's not talking about the F3 segment either. In previous discussions, he's typically lamenting segment below the XF300. I'm not going to put words in his mouth but that's been what previous discussions were about. The XF100 with it's 10x zoom and single lens ring just doesn't cut it for A1 users like Dave. Neither does the $7k XF300. So he's waited another development cycle and still nothing, just a 12-minute limit on his 60D. At least those are my impressions.
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Old November 5th, 2011, 01:59 AM   #14
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen View Post
Why are you guys unhappy? You asked Canon to build a large sensor video camera that accepts Canon DSLR or PL mount lenses, and they delivered. It has a very good codec, broadcast ready, no need for external drives. It has HD/SDI and HDMI out. It's small and compact. What's not to like?

If you wanted a price in the $5-6,000 range, well, perhaps that was unreasonable.

.
The expectation was there because it was a reasonable assumption it was an easy migration from the XF 100 series, starting a $2,900 to adding a large chip to the same design. Cannon chose to join the fray against Sony and Red instead at that level. They may have met your budget needs, but not mine. As simple as that.
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Old November 5th, 2011, 04:03 AM   #15
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Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

On the XF series canon has tended to work backwards, with the high end camera first. Although, I'm not too sure which way they can go with the XF codec with a new large sensor camera, unless it's one with a lower pixel count, without the production volume that the FS100/F3 combination has.

Since Canon seem to be tied into the DSLR form factor, they may be relying on an upgraded video mode on their next models to met the needs of the current 5DII owners. I assume the upcoming DSLRs that shoot 4k 24p Motion-jpeg footage are intended to met that market. http://www.fdtimes.com/news/canon/ca...lrcine-camera/

Although, it could a different animal entirely.

Last edited by Brian Drysdale; November 5th, 2011 at 04:55 AM.
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