Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Mario Feil and Nino Leitner posted a new short last night on Vimeo, made with the C300. A lot of extreme low light stuff plus a nice narrative. They also published a well written review of the camera, and have said they'll be uploading an ungraded pro-res version for anyone who wants to try grading it.


Canon EOS C300 – Review & short film | Nino Film - Blog - Nino Leitner - DSLR video, filmmaking & more

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Barry, you beat me to it!....Yes, really nice EVENING EXTs.......

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

To be honest very impressed by the light sensitivity, yet not really by the colors. I see lots of chroma mud, clipping chroma and highlights.. downloading HD file. Hope it's better!
Cheers to the testers, really well done for a test!

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Really nice.
I agree with Oleg, at least as far as log shots shown so far. But no one has had time to test and get the camera "dialed in". Everyone who gets the camera for a test wants to shoot in extreme light. It would take some work to get the male actor's skin tone looking great in those night and tram shots.
I do expect in the next few months some smart person will publish "recommended camera settings and workflow for Canon log". Although I still wonder about the tonality of skin when compressing 12 stops into eight bits.
But it may have nothing to do with Canon log, simply that good light is still good light. We're seeing log shots in more difficult light.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

First thought in my mind is that the human eye can only resolve about 7 stops at any one time. Hence, the original 12 stops are going to have to be compressed into something roughly equating to about 8 bits at some stage, or it will just be too contrasty for the eye.

The only advantages to recording 10 (or even 12 bits) is to give more scope for post processing. But at some point, those 12 stops of dynamic range are going to have to be compressed down.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

The dynamic range of the human eye is dependant on ambient light levels as it's tied into the the amount Of Rhodopsin in the eye and the integration period, which according to research can go up to around 15 seconds. Depending on which white paper you read you'll find figures ranging from 6.5 stops to 15 stops, but often these are just the DR of the retina. The important thing to consider is our visual system (eye-brain) operates much more like an HDR camera as the iris constantly twitches and adjusts the exposure, so while the retina may only be 6.5 stops the brain is able to perceive a much greater dynamic range. I know my visual system copes with difficult lighting better than any camera I have ever used.

The problem though is with display technology. Most LCD screens are only 7 stops, OLED screens are capable of much higher dynamic ranges, but we still feed them signals constrained by Rec-709 gamma, which is designed to work with conventional TV's and monitors.

One advantage of shooting log is the extra scope you get in grading, the other often overlooked advantage is the rate at which over exposure occurs. With a limited dynamic range camera, overexposure happens very quickly with sometimes near instant switch from correct exposure to clipping and this is very ugly. A camera with a greater DR will over expose in a gentler manner, more like what we see. Even when you take this excess log range and simply show it on a narrow DR display, this difference in over exposure performance is quite noticeable and generally the camera with the greater DR looks more realistic.

Will 8 bit log work? Yes I think it will, especially if you record to an external recorder. I think 50Mb/s is too low for serious grading work, especially if there is any movement or large amounts of noise in the image 50Mb/s will not be best. I think the Convergent NanoFlash will be an excellent match to the C300. Both use the same media and similar workflows. Recording at 100Mb/s on the Nano would produce an artefact free image that will grade very well even though it's only 8 bit. Obviously this isn't a full on 10 bit S-Log workflow, but I think it can be used for less extreme grading.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Available light tends to throw in a real mixture of colour temperatures, so there can be an element of going with the flow if the actors are moving around within a scene.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

My concern is only with post processing and log. We don't have an example of skin looking great in a processed Canon log file. Hence my comment. We have example of non-log C300 files of skin looking great.

On a related topic, Mario provided us with an interesting comparison with the F3 at the 32 second mark:


The subjects face shot with the F3 is very punchy and sharp, but I expect the Canon image more accurately shows what was in the image circle. The low noise of the F3 apparently allows Sony a lot of enhancement of microcontrast. But I think the future is actually carefully recording what is seen rather than having a sony microprocessor add attractive false detail.
Unless the sony processor can make me look younger and thinner. Then I'm all for it.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Мy colleagues from Russia noticed some aliasing signs. They are in places where straight lines are in focus. Compression artifacts? Comments?

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Could be it's going out as 720p, which wouldn't help those stair type artifacts. When the scaling is off on HD it doesn't fill my screen.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Brian, thanks, makes sense!

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

They've made available several mxf files from the short. Upon viewing them it's immediately clear that the noise level is quite a bit finer and more delicate than what we've seen posted on vimeo and even the 1080p file downloads of Mobius, 13:59 and others.

Relative to that bit of aliasing on the vimeo feed, they didn't provide that file as mxf, but it was also slightly visible on the 1080 download. After looking at the quality of the mxf's though I'd guess that it's going to be negligible.

Specifically I was quite surprised how good the nighttime market stuff looked in the MXF (it held a nice grade out --I took some of the warmth out of his face which really pulled the frame together) and was considerably less noisy than the vimeo footage. The tram stuff on the other hand, shot at 850 iso..while certainly not 4k...when viewed at 200% in fcp looked remarkably clean. I now see why it looked so good on the big screen at the canon event. This is truly superior 1080p, artifactless, with a hint of film like grain... and, well...in terms of image quality, there isn't as big of a difference with Red 4k as you might think.

My only points of concern are relative to color, specifically the benefits of C-Log versus a more controlled shooting situation with a pre baked look. While the footage graded fine, certainly better than any flat DSLR profile, I could see it's limits when trying to get a more film like curve. I think, or maybe I just wonder...that when possible, shooting with a carefully made preset could achieve better results in grading than using 8 bit c-log.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

I downloaded the 1080p version from Vimeo and it was still there...

That said, I'm fairly impressed with what I have seen from the camera so far. Seeing it next to some of the Canon DSLRs is very telling - I've gotten used to their limitations and forget that next to a true HD camera they can actually look pretty bad...

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Interesting to see more work done with the camera and to read the comments here.

Call me a stick-in-the-mud but I'm really tired of sitting through out of focus material, especially in situations that could be avoidable. The day exterior Steadicam sin the plaza looks to have been shot wide open--yes, I get it, the shallow focus helps separate the subject from the background since he is feeling alienated--but none of that means anything when you can't actually hold focus on the subject. It's especially bizarre considering Nino extols the virtues of his focus puller in his blog. Certainly he could have given him a fighting chance with more stop, but in other instances the rack focuses are late (that's both the fault of the AC and the operator, who should have requested another take).

I know this seems off-topic--we are talking about the camera's performance, after all--but as long as people are hung up on delivering short films to demo the capabilities of a camera, they need to follow through on the basics of filmmaking. We can talk all day about debayering and compression and noise but none of those impact an image as much as buzzed focus.

If in doubt, pull some ND and just get the shot.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Hey Stick,

Remind me not to invite you to the premiere of my new feature "I Pull My Own Focus." :-).

It's hard not to agree with you...I think it would have also been nice to see some lighting in a few shots as well. Using an iphone as a key from 4 or 5 feet at 20,000 iso is a nice bar conversation, but it didn't really make for a good shot. And the mix of sources is really making it difficult to see what the color is like.

In the sequence you mentioned, I felt they should have just eliminated most of that out of focus steadicam shot, as the rest of the takes aren't bad and the sequence goes on a bit long (and doesn't really have a pay off anyway). It seems like the sign of a young editor to me...holding on to a shot you felt you needed even though it doesn't work. (can you tell I've been there before?).

Thanks for keeping our eyes on the prize.

Barry

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Haha, thanks Barry. Can you tell this issue has been percolating in me for some time (started with the 35mm adaptors four or five years ago)...

I spent so many years having to take focus deadly seriously. Getting called in for a very somber meeting with the DP and director because of focus issues in a critical take that weren't noted (and that's me as the operator, folks, not the focus puller), working with AC's to help them with focus cues, putting extra effort into hitting my marks on Steadicam or maintaining equal distance to actors (chalking out circles around the subject for 360 degree shots). I've seen plenty of people get fired off jobs because of focus problems. I've done the firing myself. It sucks but there it is. As a DP, now I sit behind large high end monitors staring intently at two cameras and calling in focus notes to the AC's via walkie. Sigh...

So anyway--it's just a bit painful to watch the keys to the kingdom (i.e. large sensors and the resulting depth of field) be handed out to the "masses", and be treated so cavalierly by so many. One of the problems is that few people getting into the camera department these days want to be AC's--everyone's a DP (or a director) and the tremendous amount of skill required to nail focus with few rehearsals and marks is not being given as much weight as I think it should.

Of that Steadicam sequence, the first three shots are largely soft. The last two are fine. I'm not going to go through and count, but there are many others. The closeup at 1:44, for instance, is continuously out.

Not trying to single out these guys, obviously they moved quickly and shot a film intended to be a test. I just see more of this kind of thing than not and it's hard to not make a little stink about it.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Yes, very much a case if you want to shoot having motion picture images, learn the skills to get those images, they're not grabbed, there's a precision and a process you need to nail. Any 1st ACs I know are deadly serious about setting shots up and getting marks etc. It can be difficult enough for the less experienced on 2/3" or Super 16, never mind Super 35.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Would love to get my hands on the prores file to see how it handles some intense color pushes. Downloading the .MXF files now to give them a whirl...

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Charles,

After just spending a couple of weeks pulling focus on an Epic for the first time, I can reeeaally appreciate your comments. In the pre-production meetings I was told we'd have the Canon mount..."auto, rack focus"...blah, blah, blah, "who needs focus pullers",...

2 days before shooting starts, I'm told we need to pull focus because we have no Canon mount. I had to 'make' a speed crank. We're shooting at t2.8 at 50- 85mm from distances of 6 to 15 feet, and I'm getting glares from the director when I take an extra few seconds to double check focus, and rehearse a couple of racks.

I'll take 1080p sharp over 5k soft anyday.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

I doubt they're aliases - was the material interlaced? Looks a little like differences between the two fields of a frame....? Assuming it's progressive, looks more like what you'd get with a diagonal line and horizontal scanning, regardless of camera system.

To be honest, I wouldn't really like to speculate much on material that's not direct from camera, no additional processing, compression, etc. And at this stage I'd really like to see some decent scientific tests, zone plates ideally. That's the only way to really see just how good or bad the aliasing etc is. On "real" pictures there are just too many variables to be quantitative.

From what's been released, it's most likely that a standard 1080 zone plate is going to look pretty good. What I'd like to see is how much aliasing much finer detail gives, say about 1500-2000 lines. Obviously the camera won't - can't - resolve it properly, but will it just be flat grey (as it should) or will it be coloured aliasing?

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Did your colleagues deinterlace the image? Or maybe the creators of the video did that. It's mind boggling how many people accidentally deinterlace their own progressive images causing these huge stairsteppings and halving of resolution. I see it monthly at work. Take material into FCP don't check what it's doing = BANG, deinterlaced. Take material to Premiere, don't check what is happening = BANG, deinterlaced.

Especially FCP is quite prone to it if the material has come out of mpegstreamclip or others that flag the files as interlaced.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

Mikko, I would love to see the same piece MXF!

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

I really don't think that's it. There are a few rare cases of aliasing in the video, visible in the shot referenced, (you see it in his zipper as well) and in the close up of the main characters eye upon returning to the tram. In each case it's a sharp, high contrast line at an oblique angle. These are all visible in the 1080p download. I've not seen anything like it in the mxf's, and I kinda doubt you will ...but any angled sharp edge like that will alias on any sensor unless it's blurred. Non-issue, in my opinion. The fact that both moire and aliasing are controlled to a great degree is really good news.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

I noticed some stair-stepping on strong verticals and horizontals at the Visual Impact C300 open house that didn't appear in the near identical F3 and Alexa shots. BUT I have no idea how the camera was set, nor do I know how the monitors in use behave with enough conviction to say I saw an artefact. Whatever it was it was pretty minor, but it's certainly something I'd like to investigate further.

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

I think this is the key point - moire and aliasing have been in every digital sensor that I have ever seen. With DSLRs and the massive (and usually sloppy) down-rezzing from sensor to recorded video the problem blew up and it became a big consideration when shooting. However, people have been turning sharpness down on cameras forever to minimize this (and for other reasons)...

Re: Another nice C300 short and Review
 

This is where a well designed optical low pass filter comes in to play. It should reduce the resolution of the incoming light to somewhere around half the luma pixel count to prevent stair stepping and aliasing.